June 7, 2026

Why are Women Leaving the Church and 7 Biblical Ways to Empower Women in the Church with Dr. Cathie Smith + What is Greater than Serving?!

Show Notes
Transcript

How can pastors and churches encourage women to use their gifts for the Kingdom of God?

Seven Ways to Empower Women In the Church:

1. Engage them. Engage them in discipleship and making disciples. See them, connect with them, open doors of opportunity for them as God allows.

2. Encourage their giftings.

3. Exhort God’s calling in their lives and give them opportunities to respond to what God is calling her to do – commission/send out

4. “Equip women for ministry and disciple-making. This includes education. Educate women in theology, hermeneutics, and other Bible teaching skills to help her to be able to adequately handle the word of God.

5. Establish ministry pathways for women – both for equipping and serving in her gifting. This will involve a cost in resources, personnel and energy.

6. Enlist qualified and gifted women to serve in leadership roles and invite them to speak into sermon topics, schedules, etc. Give them a voice at the decision making table. Partnership not just permission.

7. Entrust and Release Women in your church – Champion/Co-Workers/Celebrate

Women are fully in the Imago Dei - in the Image of God. Jesus sees Mary and Martha, and He engages them in deep theological truths in profound ways.

“The church cannot flourish without women playing KEY ministry positions…in every realm of life, you lose what you don’t value.”

Pastors aren’t like Jerry Jones or Mark Cuban…we don’t own the team the way that sports owners own their team. We don’t own the church, it’s Christ’s church, and we are under-shepherds at best. We aren’t owners who utilize church players to put trophies in our cabinet.”

Jesus does not look past women.

How can pastors and churches encourage women to use their gifts for the Kingdom of God?

Generation Z women are disaffiliating from organized religion and leaving churches at unprecedented rates, outpacing their male peers for the first time in modern history. Research indicates that nearly four in ten young women now identify as religiously unaffiliated.

Data from the Survey Center on American Life shows that women make up the majority (54%) of Gen Z individuals who disaffiliate from religion, completely reversing the gender gap seen in older generations like Baby Boomers, and recent studies from the Barna Group highlight that young adult women now report the lowest rates of Bible reading, prayer, and church attendance among their generation.

1. Our own Pastor Christopher Cole has written a great article about church renewal called The God of Renewal, which you will want to read.

https://www.gcasbc.org/post/the-god-of-renewal

Also, our GCA resource of the month is also related to church renewal and is written by future podcast guest Mark Hallock and Jeremy Conrad, and is a great encouragement for churches to work together for the Gospel! All around us, pastors are discouraged, churches are competing instead of cooperating, and the witness of the gospel can feel fractured. But what if the solution isn’t working harder, it’s working together?

In Radical Collaboration, Mark Hallock and Jeremy Conrad call God’s people back to His design for unity, offering a practical vision for how churches can partner, multiply, and strengthen one another for the sake of the gospel.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0G3WJSHPC?ref=cm_sw_r_ffobk_cp_ud_dp_KKM4MNGP5Q18XK8AB1YX

WEBVTT

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Pastors and church leaders, without women flourishing in the church,

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the church won't flourish.

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Do pastors realize this dynamic? Are they actively

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Discipling the ladies of the church?

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It's easy to underestimate the value of a pastor speaking into a female's life

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and just saying something that seems so obvious to you or maybe other leadership,

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but may not be so obvious to the female herself.

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And along those lines is to exhort God's calling in their lives and give them

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opportunities to respond to what God is calling them to do.

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So not just helping them to identify their gifts, but really helping them to

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know how to respond to that and giving them opportunities to respond to that

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and encouraging them to do that.

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Find health, encouragement, practical advice, soul care, and resources that

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work together to build up your local fellowship and the broader kingdom of God.

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Join hosts, Pastor Chris Cole

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and Dr. Chase Thompson from the Great Commission Association, led by Dr.

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Mike Stewart, as they explore the frontiers of ministry and aim for the goal

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of making every church flourish.

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And welcome into episode number 21 of the Every Church Flourishing Podcast.

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We are sponsored by the Great Commission Association of California.

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And today we have the GCA's own Dr.

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Kathy Smith here to talk about empowering women in the church and a related

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discussion on why women are leaving the church in what appears to be unprecedented numbers.

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Maybe there's a connection between those two things. After the interview,

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we're going to look up one of the greatest women of Scripture,

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A precious saint that Dr.

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Smith discusses and brings up, and we're going to find out what made her stand out to Jesus.

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Okay, we're going to transition into our main interview right now,

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where Pastor Christopher Cole and I interview Dr. Kathy Smith.

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And in the spirit of today's podcast, I think it would be wrong to mansplain

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all about who Dr. Kathy Smith is.

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So I'm going to ask her to introduce herself.

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So Dr. Kathy Smith, tell us your background, your experience in ministry and

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how you landed with the Great Commission Association in California.

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Thank you, Chase. So it's been a journey for sure.

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But at an early age, I felt that the Lord had called me into missions.

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And that has definitely been the theme throughout all of the jobs and responsibilities

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that I've had up to this point.

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And my current role now is to identify, encourage, and equip women and ministry leaders.

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And before I had worked with GCA in the past and that was more in a care kind

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of position with pastor's wives, mainly creating spaces for them.

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But this role is more of a catalytic role, really trying to encourage and equip

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women in ministry to be able to,

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grow in their understanding of their calling and their gifting and to be able

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to employ that for kingdom purposes, for God's glory and to build up the church.

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So I have three kids and I'm married to Dr. Chris Smith as well.

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Well, speaking of Dr. Chris Smith, he was on one of our more recent episodes and

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He told us a little about your time in Spain as missionaries,

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and he said his favorite food in Spain was paella.

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Do you concur with this or do you have a different one?

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Definitely paella is not my favorite food because it usually has seafood,

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and I'm not a really big seafood person, but there are some seafoods I like,

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like calamari, which I recognize as seafood, but it's different.

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It has to be fried. But I really like their french fries because they were cooked in olive oil.

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Nice. Okay. Well, I got the most important question out of the way there.

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So over to you, Pastor Christopher.

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Well, right. I mean, I got to follow that up, though, with another question

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that's not so important before we dive into the in deep.

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Because, Kathy, on this podcast, we try sodas from around the world.

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Is there a soda from Spain that we should be trying? Is there something that's

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unique to Spain as like a Spanish soda? There is a certain version of Fanta,

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Or Fanta as it's called here. I forgot which one it was.

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If it's lemon that we don't have here or... Interesting. I think it's lemon and it was very good.

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But we also lived really close to Portugal. And so we could get different sodas

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in our grocery store from other countries. And there were a lot of Brazilians

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in Portugal. And so we had Guaraná.

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Interesting.

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I just ordered after that interview with Dr.

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Smith, your husband, I ordered a case of Guadana to review on an upcoming episode. I'm so excited.

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So excited about that.

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It's very good. Awesome.

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Well, and turning to serious things and our discussion for the day,

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Kathy, we're so excited to have you back with the GCA team.

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And we're grateful for all the work that you've been doing. So one of the core

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questions I think you and I have been kicking around and we're having conversations

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about, and we want to have a...

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An open conversation today about is to ask ourselves and each other,

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how can pastors and churches and church leaders empower and encourage women

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to use their gifts for the kingdom of God? And what are your thoughts?

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That is a really important question. And I think that it involves a lot of pieces

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and it's something that I'm very passionate about.

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So I've done a lot of research on that.

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And I know that a lot of pastors like alliteration and I'm not always that good

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at it, but I actually do have alliteration for this part.

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And there's even seven steps.

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So that happens rarely to me, but it did happen this time.

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But I think- Alliteration and seven steps. I think we're approaching something

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here that shall not be named.

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A plus.

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Go ahead. Yeah. Go ahead.

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The first thing is, it sounds really simple, but it's just engaging them,

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engaging with them in conversation, engaging them in discipleship,

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engaging them in conversations,

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engaging them in opportunities for leadership and opportunities to lead.

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So it sounds really easy because you would think that would be more natural.

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But I think we We do tend to silo ourselves by sometimes age groups or by gender groups.

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And there's a lot that we can learn from brothers and sisters together.

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So the first one is just engaging them.

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And the second is to encourage their gifting and help them to identify their gifts.

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And as I was looking into different people, different female leaders,

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and reading some of their interviews, a couple of things stood out.

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And one of them was that several times really influential leaders that we would

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recognize today on national levels that are females mentioned that they didn't

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realize their gifting until their pastor helped them to identify it.

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And I think that it's easy to underestimate the value of a pastor speaking into

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a female's life and just saying something that seems so obvious to you or maybe other leadership,

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but may not be so obvious to the female herself.

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And along those lines is to exhort God's calling in their lives and give them

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opportunities to respond what God is calling them to do.

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So not just like helping them to identify their gifts, but really helping them

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to know how to respond to that and giving them opportunities to respond to that

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and encouraging them to do that.

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Well, hold on, hold on right there, because you just said an amazing three things, right?

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So, so engage them.

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And then from that engagement, first off, you just have to see women.

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We have to see them in the church as fully imago Dei. They are in the image of God.

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They're redeemed. They are gifted. They are called and callable, right?

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And I think that to do that work first requires us to have spiritual eyes to see, right?

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Like Jesus sees Mary and Martha, right?

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And he engages them with deep theological truth in some profound ways,

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right? And I love where you're going with this, this idea of exhorting women

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to live up to their calling and their opportunities. But I just would say to

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maybe Pastor Jason, I could just speak to this for just a second,

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but I do think both of us with our pastoral experience,

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it can be a temptation to look past the male leaders in the church or to be

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uncomfortable as a pastor not knowing how to engage women leaders in the church.

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And so we default to just sort of looking past them, except maybe in some very

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narrow, defined sort of expectations in traditional gender roles.

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So excellent stuff. I just I had to jump in there and just say, I think, oh, no,

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Any time.

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So. All right. So we have three. What else you got for us?

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So along with that, then, is equipping women for disciple making.

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And I think that that is also like that's so vital because we we know that the

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command to make disciples is is for men and women. It's not just for men.

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And so women sometimes, though, aren't always in those conversations or maybe

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they don't understand how disciple making looks for them.

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But that is definitely something that pastors and male leaders can help them for.

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But even beyond that, I think just allowing women to understand and helping

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them to understand educational opportunities.

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I can't tell you how many times I've heard of examples through the research

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that I've done or heard other people's thinking that seminary wasn't for women,

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that it was just for men or just for certain kinds of leaders.

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And so I think just even helping women to be equipped through informal teachings

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at church, but also allowing them to know about the formal opportunities.

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And as I was looking at different things of Jesus and women,

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something stood out to me, and it would be interesting to have y'all's comment on this too, but how.

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Women were often at Jesus's feet listening and he was a rabbi.

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And traditionally, as from what I understand in that culture,

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that that would not be normal to be mixed gender.

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But Jesus affirmed Mary for doing that when Martha, I was going to get them

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mixed up, but I think I did it right.

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Martha was the one that was serving and doing more traditional female role things.

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But Mary was at Jesus speak, learning and listening and learning about him,

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which was sometimes not a place that women in her culture would have been allowed

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to be, but Jesus made a space for that.

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And so I think like that equipping and teaching piece is really important for women.

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You mentioned one of my heroes in scripture.

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A lot of denominations and branches of the body of Christ make a big deal out

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of Mary, the mother of Jesus.

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Totally understand why. There's some reasons to do that. But just in terms of

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the ministry of Jesus, his relationship with Mary of Bethany is fascinating.

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And all of the things he says about her and just the very fact that he knows

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he's going to be crucified and he's literally days away from ending death.

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His life on earth, at least for a few days.

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He says, I'm going to go see Mary, Martha, and Lazarus.

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So we don't know a lot about his relationship with that family,

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but the way Jesus talks about and commends Mary of Bethany, I don't think Protestants,

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Catholics, Orthodox, I don't think we pay enough attention to it,

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especially Protestants.

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Just as you say, a magnificent example of the kind of person who understood

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who Jesus was pre-resurrection and gave her life to listening to him in the

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most appropriate way possible.

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I think it's just an amazing example of the first commandment in action and illustration. Yeah.

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And I think to that point, when we talk about these concepts of engaging women, right?

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I'm still sort of stuck on that first one. Do we see the women and then are we equipping them?

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You know, one of the things that strikes me is that in the New Testament,

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Jesus reveals himself in some unique and powerful ways to women.

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I think of John chapter four, right?

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Before, you know, at the phase of his ministry early enough in his ministry,

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where Jesus is not revealing himself fully to his disciples.

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It's to the woman, the Samaritan woman, by the well, that he has this deep theological,

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personal conversation.

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And she says, I know, likely in Aramaic, she's saying, I know when Taheb comes,

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not likely when she's saying Mashiach, the Messiah.

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But she says, I know when he comes, he will reveal to us all these things.

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And Jesus says this remarkable thing, I'm he, which is one of the great I am's of scripture, right?

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And she goes running into the town.

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You talk about the movement from revelation to equipping to commissioning happening shortly.

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She goes running into the town and says, could this be the one,

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Right?

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Right.

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Or, of course, we just passed Easter. And who does Jesus reveal himself to choosing

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to reveal himself to there in the garden and saying,

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go tell my brothers, go tell my brothers who are not here, by the way,

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that I'm alive and I'm going to meet up with them.

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And so I think we have powerful scriptural evidence that Jesus is not looking past women.

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And also, I think I can say this to maybe correct an over-tendency in some cases in our church.

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He's not speaking to women through men.

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Jesus is not afraid to speak directly to women and empower them.

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On the point of equipping, if I could jump back to that just for a second,

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I think there are some amazing opportunities.

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For women to be equipped. Outside the church, this will be a plug for Dr.

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Chris Smith's Great Commission Training Institute, we train men and women equally in those classrooms.

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You know, we give those things. And then, of course, Gateway Seminary,

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where women are embraced as full students.

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And I know that's not always true in all seminaries. So we fully believe women

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can and should be equipped, and we're thankful for those outside the church things.

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But if we can maybe park for a second on the question of how do we equip women in the church?

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What are some areas, Kathy, that you think...

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Male pastors need to invite women into specific areas of equipping?

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One of the main things I think is leadership formation.

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And Katie Cole has a lot of, same last name as you, has a lot of really good material in that.

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She talks about like the spiritual formation, but the leadership formation.

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And sometimes it's more maybe the spiritual formation that women get.

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Hopefully they get that. But it's also important for women to get leadership

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training and leadership formation.

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And sometimes that doesn't happen because they're not in the same room as men

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when decisions are being made at church.

00:16:37.827 --> 00:16:41.927
So they're not having the same training opportunities, not having the same opportunities

00:16:41.927 --> 00:16:47.967
to see what it looks like, to deal with conflict in leadership or who is teaching

00:16:47.967 --> 00:16:51.387
them how to do these things sometimes is really lacking.

00:16:51.647 --> 00:16:56.527
And so I think that's why that we see women going outside of the church sometimes

00:16:56.527 --> 00:16:59.487
to serve in leadership roles because they can

00:16:59.797 --> 00:17:05.217
They are allowed different roles, but they also get training in different ways.

00:17:05.437 --> 00:17:10.457
And it's kind of in subtle things. But even if you look at some LifeWise statistics

00:17:10.457 --> 00:17:16.597
that they had recently, it's about 83% of women, I believe, are volunteers.

00:17:16.957 --> 00:17:20.577
So that means they're probably not coming to staff meetings.

00:17:20.717 --> 00:17:25.857
They're probably not getting the same information as maybe other leaders,

00:17:26.057 --> 00:17:30.517
which could also be other female leaders that were paid. but generally it's more males.

00:17:30.877 --> 00:17:35.137
And so they're missing lots of connection points. And then on top of that.

00:17:35.517 --> 00:17:40.017
Only 5% of women plan alongside their pastors.

00:17:40.077 --> 00:17:45.057
So they're kind of creating these silos unintentionally.

00:17:45.197 --> 00:17:50.877
And so then women groups become more siloed and more separate accidentally because

00:17:50.877 --> 00:17:52.677
there's not planning that's happening.

00:17:52.897 --> 00:17:58.137
So then there's conflict of vision, but there's not opportunities to meet with the pastor.

00:17:58.717 --> 00:18:04.837
And it's what one article I read was talking about that it's women are looking

00:18:04.837 --> 00:18:08.157
for not just permission, but partnership.

00:18:08.537 --> 00:18:11.857
And there was actually a great article that J.D.

00:18:11.997 --> 00:18:17.397
Greer did with his discipleship leader, Leslie Hildreth. And they were talking about that.

00:18:18.117 --> 00:18:22.097
Pastors would be surprised because they think that they're giving their women

00:18:22.097 --> 00:18:24.597
permission. And they are. They're giving women permission.

00:18:24.757 --> 00:18:28.417
They're giving them freedom to do ministries, to lead out in their calling in

00:18:28.417 --> 00:18:32.457
so many ways. But there's not a partnership. It's just kind of like, okay, you do it.

00:18:32.557 --> 00:18:35.437
You do your own thing. I don't really need to be involved.

00:18:35.757 --> 00:18:40.017
You just move forward. And so there's not a partnership. So there's not like

00:18:40.017 --> 00:18:42.157
joint planning. There's not brainstorming.

00:18:42.417 --> 00:18:45.397
There's not leadership development. There's not collaboration.

00:18:45.797 --> 00:18:51.117
And if you look at a staff meetings, a lot of times that they're primarily male

00:18:51.117 --> 00:18:53.497
dominated, not always, but primarily.

00:18:53.837 --> 00:18:57.597
So, and if, if there are more than one female, then what happens?

00:18:57.717 --> 00:19:02.117
The men go to one side, the women go to another side for lunch or for other things.

00:19:02.257 --> 00:19:04.077
And obviously we want to be wise

00:19:04.077 --> 00:19:11.037
to not have one-on-one conversations in places that are not protected.

00:19:11.157 --> 00:19:16.457
But I think that we sometimes forget that we are brothers and sisters and that

00:19:16.457 --> 00:19:21.697
we can actually learn from each other and that we can be wise and careful,

00:19:21.717 --> 00:19:25.697
but it doesn't mean that we can't ever have a conversation, if that makes sense.

00:19:26.217 --> 00:19:30.277
Absolutely. And can I just say, I'll confess here,

00:19:30.477 --> 00:19:34.417
like in my first pastorate, the first pastorate I had in California as a lead

00:19:34.417 --> 00:19:40.057
pastor for nine years and having been on staff, I had served alongside and in

00:19:40.057 --> 00:19:43.717
partnership actually with women leaders at my church in Texas and I

00:19:43.891 --> 00:19:50.411
But when I got to my first church, I was perfectly willing to let or permit

00:19:50.411 --> 00:19:54.311
the women to have their Bible studies and so on.

00:19:54.611 --> 00:19:59.871
But aside from maybe occasionally glancing at the material they were using and

00:19:59.871 --> 00:20:04.531
trying to say, hey, I'm just not sure that person was very theologically sound,

00:20:04.531 --> 00:20:07.511
I didn't see it as my responsibility.

00:20:07.511 --> 00:20:13.411
And I was dead wrong, right? how could I be shepherding 60% of my church,

00:20:13.411 --> 00:20:17.191
and most of our churches are minimally 60% women?

00:20:17.371 --> 00:20:21.811
How could I do this in a way that doesn't say that's my responsibility?

00:20:22.091 --> 00:20:27.511
As a shepherd, means that I have to be able to come alongside women leaders

00:20:27.511 --> 00:20:29.951
and say, how do we equip together?

00:20:30.111 --> 00:20:33.871
And the truth was that, in part, I didn't want to have to acknowledge I was

00:20:33.871 --> 00:20:37.451
ignorant. I didn't know how to train mature women leaders in the church.

00:20:37.451 --> 00:20:39.251
I was a 24-year-old pastor.

00:20:39.391 --> 00:20:42.691
I was barely figuring out how to lead myself, let alone

00:20:43.000 --> 00:20:49.320
any other men. And it took me a long time in ministry to come to the realization

00:20:49.320 --> 00:20:55.680
where this is an important aspect to see the women, engage them,

00:20:56.080 --> 00:21:03.000
Yes, to exhort them, to call them out, but also to equip them and equip them equally. Yes.

00:21:03.360 --> 00:21:09.660
Equally with resourcing and training and not assuming that the women are to

00:21:09.660 --> 00:21:12.460
be less substantively equipped.

00:21:12.760 --> 00:21:17.240
And I think there's a modality that says, well, in some churches,

00:21:17.380 --> 00:21:22.940
well, we're going to equip the men, and then in theory, these men are going to equip their spouses.

00:21:23.160 --> 00:21:27.820
Well, one, that assumes way more of the church is married than it actually is.

00:21:28.040 --> 00:21:31.500
So what happens to single women and the widows?

00:21:31.680 --> 00:21:36.360
That's a huge question. And then secondly, the truth is I've pastored enough

00:21:36.360 --> 00:21:41.440
men to know that most men are terrible at equipping their wives.

00:21:41.460 --> 00:21:46.240
And we haven't actually done a very good job of equipping husbands to equip

00:21:46.240 --> 00:21:48.420
their spouses with gospel truth.

00:21:48.600 --> 00:21:54.920
So there is both that direct and also that indirect equipping as well.

00:21:55.240 --> 00:22:00.420
Kathy, what number are you on in your E-series? Four, five?

00:22:00.740 --> 00:22:03.300
That was four. So we're going into five. Thank you.

00:22:03.624 --> 00:22:07.504
So I think that's important to like, as Indirectly pointed out,

00:22:07.604 --> 00:22:11.144
that there is formal and informal equipping.

00:22:11.344 --> 00:22:15.444
And so that doesn't mean that the only way that you can be equipped is formally

00:22:15.444 --> 00:22:19.184
through seminary or training class, but it's very much a great way.

00:22:19.344 --> 00:22:23.904
And I believe in our seminaries and our GCTI classes that equip,

00:22:24.064 --> 00:22:25.504
but it's not the only way.

00:22:25.704 --> 00:22:29.784
And so I think that's important that we let women know that there are ways for

00:22:29.784 --> 00:22:35.564
them to be involved in both formal and informal, and that we provide opportunities

00:22:35.564 --> 00:22:37.904
to do that, which is really hard.

00:22:38.064 --> 00:22:41.524
And then not just doing that, but then that goes into the fifth E,

00:22:41.724 --> 00:22:45.204
which is established ministry pathways for women.

00:22:45.324 --> 00:22:49.884
Because we talk about so much, A, thing that women shouldn't do,

00:22:49.964 --> 00:22:53.224
but we don't then talk about other pathways.

00:22:53.264 --> 00:22:56.184
So I think that as church's.

00:22:56.782 --> 00:23:00.962
We need to create pathways for women to be able to be involved,

00:23:01.062 --> 00:23:05.302
that they can see clearly where they can lead and where they can use their gifts.

00:23:05.422 --> 00:23:10.422
And that's going to look differently in each church because every church has its own personality.

00:23:10.422 --> 00:23:16.662
Even in our denomination, how people use gifts and how that plays out is going

00:23:16.662 --> 00:23:17.722
to look a little bit differently.

00:23:17.722 --> 00:23:22.862
But there has to be pathways for both men and women that are clearly developed.

00:23:22.862 --> 00:23:25.422
And I know referencing J.D.

00:23:25.502 --> 00:23:30.242
Greer again, but their church several years ago went through this massive restructuring

00:23:30.242 --> 00:23:34.022
and they took out, they looked at all their titles in their church.

00:23:34.222 --> 00:23:38.142
Obviously, senior pastor was reserved for male that was gender based.

00:23:38.142 --> 00:23:44.202
But everything else they looked at, can this role be filled by either gender

00:23:44.202 --> 00:23:46.722
or like what are the qualifications that it can be?

00:23:46.802 --> 00:23:49.542
Can that be a qualified male or qualified female?

00:23:49.762 --> 00:23:54.342
And so they changed the wording of the descriptions to be more descriptive of

00:23:54.342 --> 00:23:59.682
what it really was so that it didn't accidentally imply one gender or the other,

00:23:59.742 --> 00:24:01.822
because even it can go the other way.

00:24:01.822 --> 00:24:06.542
There could be some roles that maybe have become female gender roles,

00:24:06.562 --> 00:24:11.082
but maybe a male is really gifted in hospitality or service.

00:24:11.082 --> 00:24:14.382
So it doesn't mean that they can't serve in that role. So I think it works both

00:24:14.382 --> 00:24:19.742
ways that we just are careful with our wording of our job descriptions and how it's presented.

00:24:20.413 --> 00:24:24.273
There are things that need more qualifications than others.

00:24:24.493 --> 00:24:27.693
Some roles need more spiritual maturity than others.

00:24:27.833 --> 00:24:34.473
And I think that needs to be stated clearly and not using unnecessarily gender-specific

00:24:34.473 --> 00:24:37.253
language when it's not needed. Yeah.

00:24:37.473 --> 00:24:42.553
And to that point, I would just say, I think that requires what you're describing

00:24:42.553 --> 00:24:46.013
requires an intentionality. For sure.

00:24:46.393 --> 00:24:51.613
Right? The kind of work you're describing J.D. doing requires an intentionality.

00:24:51.893 --> 00:24:58.673
Hey, we are going to intentionally not accidentally discourage women from leadership

00:24:58.673 --> 00:25:00.033
roles within the church.

00:25:00.033 --> 00:25:07.053
We're not going to implicitly assume gender-specific roles where those are not

00:25:07.053 --> 00:25:09.373
necessarily clear or biblical.

00:25:09.373 --> 00:25:16.153
And I think it takes an intentionality to make those pathways happen in a way

00:25:16.153 --> 00:25:19.313
that leads to the flourishing of the church as the whole.

00:25:19.753 --> 00:25:25.893
And again, maybe I'm just reflecting out of my own weaknesses and failures,

00:25:26.053 --> 00:25:27.713
particularly in my first pastorate.

00:25:27.903 --> 00:25:32.843
Even though I had a large number of women leaders in the church and great engagement

00:25:32.843 --> 00:25:38.163
with them, I think many of them would say that they were given more of a decision-making

00:25:38.163 --> 00:25:42.783
role in a bigger seat at the table than they had been in other ministry contexts.

00:25:42.983 --> 00:25:48.123
The truth was that I also did not put the same intentionality there.

00:25:48.283 --> 00:25:55.183
I put intentionality heavily into what it meant to disciple and equip male leaders.

00:25:55.183 --> 00:26:02.803
And maybe there's a word to us here to say, if we're going to equip and establish

00:26:02.803 --> 00:26:07.543
those pathways that you're talking about, they're not going to happen accidentally.

00:26:08.203 --> 00:26:14.743
And I think that actually a failure to do that can provoke some of the conflicts

00:26:14.743 --> 00:26:20.423
that happen regarding gender-specific or non-gender-specific roles within the church.

00:26:20.423 --> 00:26:25.223
I think women who are gifted teachers, for example, if you don't give them intentional

00:26:25.223 --> 00:26:27.583
pathways to develop those gifts

00:26:27.583 --> 00:26:32.983
and use those gifts, they're not going to necessarily just stay passive.

00:26:33.463 --> 00:26:39.703
And then that causes conflicts that may not need to occur when the truth is

00:26:39.703 --> 00:26:45.003
the root level issue was we failed to be intentional on engaging and equipping

00:26:45.003 --> 00:26:51.563
and exhorting and calling out the called and establishing the right pathways here for women leaders.

00:26:52.083 --> 00:26:56.563
Yeah, that's very true. And there was a podcast recently that I listened to

00:26:56.563 --> 00:27:04.023
with Carrie Newhoff and Katie Cole, and it was something about seven red flags

00:27:04.023 --> 00:27:06.503
of why women are leaving the church and what to do.

00:27:06.955 --> 00:27:09.175
And one of those things is that

00:27:09.175 --> 00:27:13.795
if women aren't feeling like they can use their gifts or they can serve,

00:27:13.915 --> 00:27:19.035
then they are going to leave the church because it's sort of like they don't

00:27:19.035 --> 00:27:23.435
see that there's value for them, even though that's kind of a harsh way to put it.

00:27:23.555 --> 00:27:26.815
But they need to feel like there's a place for them.

00:27:26.895 --> 00:27:31.215
But also she mentioned that there was just a lack of trust. Katie was talking

00:27:31.215 --> 00:27:38.055
about how women's ministry in the church overall hasn't changed a great deal in 50 years.

00:27:38.255 --> 00:27:41.855
Like it's still kind of based on the assumption that the women are the volunteers,

00:27:41.855 --> 00:27:46.735
that the women serve in serving meals. They do all of these things.

00:27:46.835 --> 00:27:52.175
But majority of women, or at least a lot, especially in California,

00:27:52.175 --> 00:27:59.195
are also working full-time jobs and taking care of their kids and trying to do volunteer things.

00:27:59.195 --> 00:28:05.675
And so they don't have the same capacity as maybe 50 years ago when it was less

00:28:05.675 --> 00:28:08.515
common for a woman to work outside of the home.

00:28:08.595 --> 00:28:11.975
And so that affects how women find their place in churches.

00:28:12.155 --> 00:28:15.955
And obviously, we don't go to a church for what it gives us.

00:28:16.055 --> 00:28:21.035
But if we don't feel like we can use our gifts, then maybe women will go somewhere else.

00:28:21.195 --> 00:28:26.675
And so I think establishing these pathways can really help to encourage women

00:28:26.675 --> 00:28:33.235
to know that there is a place for them there and also that they're valued and also that we are really,

00:28:33.415 --> 00:28:37.095
we really are better as a whole body of Christ together.

00:28:37.095 --> 00:28:43.115
We can't just have, you know, a male body of Christ and a female body of Christ.

00:28:43.255 --> 00:28:44.555
That's not biblical at all.

00:28:44.715 --> 00:28:49.475
We're all in the same body of Christ and we all have to use our gifts together

00:28:49.475 --> 00:28:53.695
under Christ as the head. And I think that that is sometimes.

00:28:54.442 --> 00:28:59.362
Not how women necessarily feel. And so it can lead to leaving the church.

00:28:59.462 --> 00:29:00.882
And then that leaves huge gaps.

00:29:01.082 --> 00:29:05.542
It leaves gaps in volunteer roles, but also leadership roles,

00:29:05.802 --> 00:29:08.202
mentoring roles, all kinds of other things happen.

00:29:08.422 --> 00:29:15.642
You know, just to speak to that, and I'm curious what Pastor Chase might reflect on this or you.

00:29:15.942 --> 00:29:24.402
You know, in the 1970s, China developed a policy, the one-child policy.

00:29:24.402 --> 00:29:30.462
They were trying to address the overgrowth of their population and their capability economically.

00:29:30.802 --> 00:29:36.142
And in the development of that one-child-only policy, it came with catastrophic

00:29:36.142 --> 00:29:43.262
downline consequences, mass abortions of female babies in utero,

00:29:43.762 --> 00:29:49.102
the exposure of women infants, the abandonment of them.

00:29:49.262 --> 00:29:57.462
And now, several decades into this policy, China has done something that human biology does not do.

00:29:57.642 --> 00:30:03.502
They have inverted the global demographic, which is that there have always been

00:30:03.502 --> 00:30:04.662
more women than there are men.

00:30:04.982 --> 00:30:11.702
But China is facing this massive lack of women, and now they don't know what to do.

00:30:11.782 --> 00:30:18.102
And that has led to a secondary series of crises where there is now rampant sexual trafficking,

00:30:18.587 --> 00:30:23.567