WEBVTT
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Today, we've got Chris Reynolds, a mission strategist from the Jacksonville,
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Florida area, and he's going to talk to us about the danger of drifting from
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a church's primary purpose of discipleship and what the
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solution to that problem is, which begins with...
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What's the solution? I think the solution is clarity. Let's become clear on
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what God has really called us to do and have some honest conversations about
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that and evaluate, are we doing it?
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Helping churches, leaders, and pastors find health, encouragement,
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practical advice, soul care, and resources that work together to build up your
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local fellowship and the broader kingdom of God.
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Join hosts, Pastor Chris Cole and Dr. Chase Thompson from the Great Commission
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Association, led by Dr. Mike Stewart, as they explore the frontiers of ministry
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and aim for the goal of making every church flourish.
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Hello, everybody, and welcome into episode number 27 of the Every Church Flourishing podcast.
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Today, Pastor Chris Cole and I interview Chris Reynolds, who is the Director of Missions, the
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Mission Strategist, the Strategic Outsider in Jacksonville, Florida,
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and one of the best thinkers on church ministry that we've encountered.
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Some of the things we're going to talk about include why are churches drifting
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away from their main purpose of discipleship? What's the cure for purpose drift?
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And some of the aspects of pastoring that seminary doesn't really prepare you for.
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It was a great discussion. It was a lot of fun meeting with Chris,
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and I think you're going to enjoy it.
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And we talk about several different things. So I think at least one of the topics
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we're going to address today is going to be important for you and edifying for
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you and thought-provoking for you.
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In the beginning of the interview, we're going to tell you all about Chris and
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how to get in touch with him, his podcast, his sub stack. So I'm going to go
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ahead and kick it over to that.
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All right. Today, we welcome in Chris Reynolds, the mission strategist for the
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Northeast Florida Family of Churches, which is kind of located around the Jacksonville
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area there in Nassau County, Duval.
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And it's 100 miles north of the shark attack capital of the world in New Smyrna
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Beach, which is something that I just personally keep up with.
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Chris, I hope you are safe from sharks for the duration of this recording. at least
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Yes, indeed we are. We have to worry about alligators more than sharks here in Florida.
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Yeah, you guys have been in the news big time lately, like three alligator attacks
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in the last week. That's crazy.
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Yeah, I think there just is a running, like something gets picked up once and
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then they have to report every single one.
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They're probably not counting the rednecks that are playing around in their
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pond because that happens probably at least once a week.
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Nice. These are people who are saying things like, hey, hold my beer and watch
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this. Is that what you're saying? I mean, if they're not Southern Baptists,
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right? Because they're saying, hold my Diet Coke and watch this.
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That's pretty accurate. You know, if you search Florida man and then whatever
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date on the calendar year, there is a story behind it.
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We have a mutual friend in Dr. Jimbo Stewart.
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And Jimbo, I've asked him before, I said, Jimbo, are the Florida man stories
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true? He said, every single one. Has that been your experience as well?
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Yes. And I have some family members
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that are Florida men. It's just the nature of having grown up here.
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Well, Chris, we are so glad that you are here with us today.
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We're excited that you're coming to share a bit of your story with us.
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Tell us briefly maybe about your history as a pastor, how you got called into
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ministry, and how you transitioned from being a pastor to becoming the mission
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strategist for the Northeast Florida family of churches.
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So I actually grew up here in Northeast Florida whenever I received the call to ministry.
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And I knew early on in life that I was going to be engaged in ministry in some capacity.
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And so I started serving in my local church and was a children's pastor,
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came on staff at a church here in this region.
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And it wasn't very long before I got a phone call from a megachurch in Tennessee,
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and they wanted me to come and serve as children's pastor there because apparently
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a male children's pastor is a rarity.
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And so I thought this is going to be a great opportunity. And it was.
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It was a great learning opportunity for me.
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The experience gained there being a part of a megachurch running 2,500 every single Sunday.
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We had a 9,000 square foot children's wing and 2,500, like I said,
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running every single week, 350 to 400 kids, two services.
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There was so much happening that I learned a lot, but it was like drinking water
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out of a fire hydrant. Mm-hmm.
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After about two years, it became abundantly clear that God was moving in me
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to move towards pastoral ministry. And I remember praying specifically,
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God, if you want this to happen, you're going to have to be the one that does it.
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Because I don't jump rungs from children's pastor to senior pastor.
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That's just that's not what typically happens. So if this is what you want me
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to do, even though I think it's probably a bad idea, you're going to have to be the one that does it.
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And sure enough, a church in Boone, North Carolina called me to be their senior
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pastor. I was 27 and a half years old, and I stepped into a role that you really
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don't understand the pressures of until you're really there.
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And was there for about four years, arrived and did not realize the environment
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that I was stepping into. It was really a revitalization of sorts.
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And after being there for four years, helping them navigate some significant
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changes and challenges, as well as growing in my own understanding of what that
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role was, I then transitioned to Columbia, South Carolina, where I was for about seven years.
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And that's when I was introduced to a healthy model of associational leadership.
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My mentor, George Bullard, he really showed me what associations could do when
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it came to strengthening the missional movement that could exist in a local church.
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And so while I was serving as a pastor there, helping the church that was in
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transition begin moving in a new direction.
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I really got plugged into the local association. After a couple of years of
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prayerfully seeking God's face on where it was He had wanted me to go next,
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I ended up working for a national consulting agency.
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Working with churches associations, state conventions all across the country.
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And after a little while, my wife and I were like, why are we still here in
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South Carolina when pastoring was no longer my primary role in the local church?
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And I was doing consulting work and I said, well, let's go home.
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And my local association, the one I grew up in, was without an associational
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leader and I'd been working with associations across the country.
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So I said, hey, this is the type of work that I do.
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And at this point, I was doing it on my own. I'd be happy to help in whatever
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capacity that I can assist. I'm not looking for a role, simply saying,
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I want to help because this is my home association.
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And they said, well, we had three interviews today for our next associational
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missionary and none of those three were it. So why don't you send in your resume? And I said,
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I'm really busy. They said, well, will you pray about it? Absolutely.
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So that following Monday, I sent them my resume.
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Come to find out, they said that before they started those interviews,
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they prayed as a group, as a search team, dear Lord, before the end of the day,
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please make it abundantly clear who you want here in this role for this next
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season for our association.
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And they had those interviews and they were like, man, none of them are it.
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And then I called. And so it was just a total God thing.
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And so I get to do what it is that I love doing, working with churches,
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working with pastors, but I get to do it here in the place that I grew up.
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That is way cool. That's such a great intro to your story, Chris,
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and to how God's been at work in your life.
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For just the context here, most of our churches spread out all across California, Central Coast.
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Like when you gave some of those numbers for the church you served in in Tennessee,
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We have no church that would meet that reality.
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Like, I don't know. Chase, do you know of a church that's got a 9,000 square
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foot children's facility?
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I mean, most of our churches don't have more than, you know,
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3,500, 4,000 square feet is a big facility for a lot of our churches and our association.
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So it's definitely not a reality that a lot of our pastors in our churches hang
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out in and live in. So it's quite remarkable to hear that story of how God's
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been at work there with you in that way.
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It's an anomaly, I think, anywhere
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because that group is really only about 8%, if that, 8% of the total.
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And so what it allowed me to do, though, was gain experience in an environment
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in which a lot of people don't have experience in and to understand the dynamics
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that take place there. Because here's the reality.
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I served in that church. That's the largest church I've ever served in.
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After that, I went to 150-member church. And then I went to a church that was
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running 60 in regular worship attendance.
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And then even in that transition, that church ended up merging in with another
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church just because of transitions and changes that had to happen because they
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had adopted the Field of Dreams mentality
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of when it came to building a building, if you build it, they will come and people never showed up.
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And so they had this monstrous deferred maintenance debt hanging over their head.
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So it's not the reality of any most other places, but it has given me that experience
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to where I can actually connect with pastors and church leaders and other staff
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members and understand what it is that they're going through.
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Yeah, well, tell us about your podcast and your sub stack and the kind of things
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you talk about and write about, Chris.
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So the podcast is really trying to reveal resources that exist here in our contextual environment.
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So it's Kingdom Over Turf, and our hope is really to get pastors on there or
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church leaders or ministry leaders or those that are serving in some way
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that can be an asset to the local church.
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That can be a benefit to a pastor in that context.
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Because what I have found is that most of the time, it's not so much the.
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Centralized associational office that is the harbinger of all of the necessary
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information for a pastor or a church leader. Rather, it's somebody down the street.
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It's that local church leader that is experiencing the same thing that that
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pastor that is in a struggle mode, that somebody else down the street has already
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experienced it. They know what it looks like to walk through it.
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And so really, I see my role from an associational standpoint.
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And then this is the podcast is really just an opportunity for,
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but as a connector where if I have a conversation with a pastor and they say,
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man, I'm really going through this or I don't know what to do about the staffing
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issue or, hey, we're struggling to with clarity and where it is that God is leading us next.
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Or we're really hitting this barrier whenever it comes to our education ministry.
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Well, I've had enough conversations with enough people to be able to say,
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hey, I know a pastor just down the road from you.
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Let me connect you to him. And so my hope is through the podcast, it's to
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have those conversations in that form, not to say, hey, come and listen to my
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podcast, but so that somebody that goes and listen to it, they will say,
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hey, that's somebody I could reach out to because I'm feeling the same thing
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or I'm experiencing that same thing or I am going through that as well.
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And so that's a resource that they can connect with. The substack for me is
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a desire to share from a strategic outsider standpoint.
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For those that don't know,
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Back in, I guess, 2015, maybe it was a little bit earlier than that,
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Rick Wheeler headed a task force that was put together through SB Cal,
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which is Southern Baptist Conference of Associational Leadership.
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And Rick Wheeler at the time was part of the JBA, the Jacksonville Baptist Association.
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Jacksonville Baptist Association is now First Coast Churches,
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and that's just my neighbor.
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Rick is now a part of Stewardship Simplified there in Jacksonville, heading that up.
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But while while he was there at JBA, he.
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Led a task force to change the name and to create a name that really reflected
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the role of an associational missionary or a director of missions that it's
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sometimes still called.
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And what they came up with was a mission strategist, associational mission strategist.
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And the definition that they used is they really came as a strategic outsider.
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And so I like the definition of things because I find them so much simpler than
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the complicated of, well, what is a mission strategist?
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So I'd just rather call it the definition. So as a strategic outsider,
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I can walk into an environment, a church, a place, I can walk into an experience
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and I can see it from a different perspective because I don't live there.
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And so that's the objective with the Substack is to say, hey,
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pastor, church, church leader, this is what I'm observing.
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This is what I'm seeing. This is an outsider's perspective that it's really
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hard for you to see when you're in the inside, you're in the day-to-day,
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you're experiencing it over and over again.
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And so that's kind of the focus of both of those.
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Well, that's awesome. Resourcing pastors is a very needed thing. I went to seminary,
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I know Christopher went to seminary and I had a good experience in seminary.
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I worked for New Orleans Baptist for almost 10 years.
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I'm a fan of seminary, but I would say probably 90 to 95%. I don't know.
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That might be a little high. 90% of my seminary experience was all about Greek,
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Hebrew, learning the Bible, theology.
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And it's great stuff. And I'm still into that stuff. But a very small percentage
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of it is about how to pastor a church and how to run a church.
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And all of these nitty gritty things. And a lot of that stuff you're covering
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on your podcast, Kingdom Over Turf. And look, I know bylaws are not the most
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fascinating and glorious topic to talk about.
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But earlier this year, you had an attorney, Gary Eldale on that was talking about bylaws.
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And I think probably this is an incredibly important thing that pastors and
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church leaders don't think about, don't talk about a lot, But probably we should
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be a whole lot more aware of what our bylaws say.
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In fact, our church is kind of going through this process right now.
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We just recently discovered, I discovered going through our bylaws looking for
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something else that we're supposed to be meeting for our quarterly business
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meetings on a particular Wednesday night.
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And we're actually doing those quarterly business meetings on a Sunday morning,
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which you know, probably we're not going to go to jail or be locked up by the
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FBI for that. But if we say we're going to do something, we should do something. So
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Tell us a little bit about what you learned from Gary and what pastors and church
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leaders should be thinking about their bylaws as kind of a warm-up question
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before we get into deeper waters.
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Yeah, and that's one of the benefits is there are a lot of things from a,
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if you're an associational missionary or mission strategist,
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you become a generalist to where you know a lot of things, a little bit about a lot of things.
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And that's where you can tap into experts and say, hey, we need you to really explore this deeply.
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And the benefit of the conversation with Gary is that he shared those necessary
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realities that your bylaws, and I love the way that he puts it,
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it's kind of like a safety blanket.
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It is this warm blanket that it goes around you from a protection standpoint.
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If you don't have accurate bylaws that reflect what you're actually doing and
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your governance procedures and expectations, that is a recipe for disaster.
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Because those bylaws are a protection for the church.
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Because if anything is ever brought to the court system, anything,
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the first thing that a judge is gonna do is say, what do the bylaws of that
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church say pertaining to this matter?
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Because the bylaws are what dictate what's happening and what is supposed to happen.
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And if you haven't been abiding by your bylaws, well, then
00:17:02.380 --> 00:17:08.783
any claim that somebody makes may be in question and put the church at risk
00:17:08.905 --> 00:17:12.558
because the judge says, well, you haven't been abiding by your bylaws in any
00:17:12.558 --> 00:17:14.358
other place, in any other way.
00:17:14.358 --> 00:17:17.598
You've not been upholding them. You can't even uphold them for some churches
00:17:17.598 --> 00:17:21.606
because they don't have the necessary requirement of members in some situations.
00:17:21.769 --> 00:17:26.628
And therefore, why should we adhere to this when you've not been following anywhere else?
00:17:26.784 --> 00:17:31.498
And then they can go by another standard and it may not be ruled in your favor.
00:17:31.498 --> 00:17:36.438
So those bylaws really become a pivotal, pivotal resource for churches from
00:17:36.438 --> 00:17:37.938
a protectionary standpoint.
00:17:37.938 --> 00:17:44.588
Yeah. And I think we resonate so much on so many similar ministry philosophies and values.
00:17:44.588 --> 00:17:48.168
And here at GCA, you know, that's one of the big things that we spend time working
00:17:48.168 --> 00:17:52.748
with churches on, too, is helping them say, hey, where are you not implementing
00:17:52.748 --> 00:17:57.828
and living out of those bylaws and operating really out of your design?
00:17:57.828 --> 00:18:00.238
You know, it's one of the areas that we try to talk to churches about,
00:18:00.238 --> 00:18:04.324
say, listen, this is you functioning within the design that you have,
00:18:04.434 --> 00:18:10.778
and that's a core component of just living with integrity, operating within your design.
00:18:10.778 --> 00:18:17.678
I want to jump back for a second into the term strategic outsider and relate
00:18:17.678 --> 00:18:21.628
that to the idea of living out of our design.
00:18:21.628 --> 00:18:25.138
You wrote a piece recently that I just thought was phenomenal,
00:18:25.138 --> 00:18:31.248
Chris, on how God has shaped you personally as a strategic outsider.
00:18:31.248 --> 00:18:35.958
It's just a phenomenal piece there because I think I find that as I'm coaching
00:18:35.958 --> 00:18:40.958
and encouraging and trying to work with pastors, a lot of them don't actually
00:18:40.958 --> 00:18:44.358
know how they have been designed in order to
00:18:44.898 --> 00:18:49.156
Live and minister with really a sense of wholeness and integrity.
00:18:49.475 --> 00:18:54.139
So, Chris, reflecting on that article, you wrote your observations about how
00:18:54.139 --> 00:18:59.324
God has shaped you and prepared you and formed you to be this strategic outsider
00:18:59.533 --> 00:19:01.199
and why that resonates with you.
00:19:01.199 --> 00:19:06.049
What would you say to pastors about learning and exploring how they've been
00:19:06.049 --> 00:19:12.629
formed and discerning how that impacts them in discerning where and how they
00:19:12.629 --> 00:19:14.559
should be serving within the kingdom of God?
00:19:14.559 --> 00:19:18.714
No, I think that's great. So, one, I don't think that was an actual article.
00:19:18.818 --> 00:19:21.969
I think it was something that I had posted on Facebook. Oh, there you go.
00:19:21.969 --> 00:19:25.889
It was one of my stories on Facebook. So if Chase goes looking for it,
00:19:25.889 --> 00:19:28.319
that's the place to find it. There you go. All right.
00:19:29.099 --> 00:19:32.989
The experience that I had in ministry was incredibly difficult because I've
00:19:32.989 --> 00:19:35.909
never been wired like the typical pastor.
00:19:35.909 --> 00:19:40.569
And I always felt like I was less than or that I was messing it up.
00:19:40.569 --> 00:19:44.799
Because, yeah, I went to Bible college. I went to seminary. I've got three degrees.
00:19:44.799 --> 00:19:49.239
I've got bachelor's degree in biblical studies. So I've done all of the things
00:19:49.239 --> 00:19:52.029
that were required of me to do. But whenever I got into the role,
00:19:52.029 --> 00:19:54.685
like Chase said, it was like, what is this?
00:19:54.818 --> 00:19:59.539
This is not preaching Greek and Hebrew and hermeneutics. And this is not open
00:19:59.539 --> 00:20:02.189
the Bible and say, thus saith the Lord. And all the people go,
00:20:02.189 --> 00:20:04.060
oh, wow, thank goodness.
00:20:04.414 --> 00:20:07.664
You're the most intelligent person I've ever heard of. I can't believe nobody
00:20:07.664 --> 00:20:09.882
ever told me that. Let's go and do that thing.
00:20:10.178 --> 00:20:14.264
It's not that. Anybody in seminary that thinks it is that, I'm sorry.
00:20:14.264 --> 00:20:16.012
That's just not how it works.
00:20:16.152 --> 00:20:20.790
There is leadership that is required. There are tactical steps that are required.
00:20:20.970 --> 00:20:26.684
There's the very real reality that there are lost people that believe themselves
00:20:26.684 --> 00:20:32.249
to be saved, that are members of your church, that are on your deacon board, that,
00:20:32.754 --> 00:20:38.153
God forbid that they are on your elder board and they are lost.
00:20:38.431 --> 00:20:44.104
There are sweet little old ladies that sit on the right side of the sanctuary
00:20:44.104 --> 00:20:48.834
in the very back who believe themselves to be saved that will straight up tell
00:20:48.834 --> 00:20:51.735
you, I just hope I've done enough to get into heaven.
00:20:52.974 --> 00:20:57.470
And they had been there in that church for over 50 years. That's the reality.
00:20:57.592 --> 00:21:03.037
And so for me, coming out of seminary, beginning to pastor, beginning to lead,
00:21:03.183 --> 00:21:08.714
I struggled because the hand holding at somebody's bedside didn't fuel me.
00:21:09.054 --> 00:21:13.274
And I felt like, is something wrong with me? That's not what fueled my soul.
00:21:13.274 --> 00:21:16.271
That's not, did I do it? Absolutely, 100%.
00:21:16.590 --> 00:21:21.314
But it just didn't energize me. Now, standing in front of.
00:21:21.934 --> 00:21:25.194
A room of people who are seeking clarity on
00:21:25.594 --> 00:21:29.204
what God is calling them to do in the places they live, work,
00:21:29.204 --> 00:21:35.064
and play, and how they can execute it well under the umbrella of what God is
00:21:35.064 --> 00:21:38.164
doing at the church, that is something that's energizing.
00:21:38.164 --> 00:21:42.274
That's encouraging. Helping a staff team navigate what the future looks like,
00:21:42.274 --> 00:21:44.245
that's encouraging. That's energizing.
00:21:44.390 --> 00:21:48.174
And so for the longest time, I didn't realize that that's just how God had wired
00:21:48.174 --> 00:21:49.666
me. That's how he put me together.
00:21:49.805 --> 00:21:55.157
In about 2020 or so, I went through a process that my friends have really fine-tuned
00:21:55.285 --> 00:21:59.014
this process, and it's around personal calling and clarity.
00:21:59.334 --> 00:22:02.789
It's my friends Shane Stacy and Dave Rhodes at Clarity House.
00:22:03.155 --> 00:22:06.429
It's a process called handcrafted calling, incredible resource.
00:22:06.585 --> 00:22:09.952
I would encourage any pastor or church leader to consider it,
00:22:10.063 --> 00:22:15.067
or even lay member that really wants to discover what's their Ephesians 2.10 calling in life.
00:22:15.212 --> 00:22:19.574
Because I went through this journey and I realized that's just not how God has wired me.
00:22:19.894 --> 00:22:25.094
I had spent so much of my life trying to help people walk in greater intimacy
00:22:25.094 --> 00:22:28.534
and relationship with Christ that they didn't want to. And yeah,
00:22:28.534 --> 00:22:29.492
they were church members.
00:22:29.776 --> 00:22:33.294
They just didn't want to go any further than they had gone. and it was eating
00:22:33.294 --> 00:22:37.084
me alive. And so when I went through that process and I realized that's not
00:22:37.084 --> 00:22:40.005
what I was made, some people are made to do that and they do it very well.
00:22:40.179 --> 00:22:43.764
That's just not what he had made me to do. When I realized that and I began
00:22:43.764 --> 00:22:48.084
to reframe my actions and started investing in those that did wanna move forward
00:22:48.084 --> 00:22:51.294
with positive progress and greater intimacy in their relationship with Christ
00:22:51.631 --> 00:22:54.429
and helped them move forward, it helped the health of the whole.
00:22:54.539 --> 00:22:59.594
All of a sudden we started seeing dramatic shifts and movement and I felt better
00:22:59.594 --> 00:23:01.604
about what it was that I was doing.
00:23:01.720 --> 00:23:07.544
And so that really helped fuel me as I began to step into the associational
00:23:07.544 --> 00:23:11.914
role and that strategic outsider standpoint, because my tagline for the strategic
00:23:11.914 --> 00:23:13.654
outsider is see what's next.
00:23:13.974 --> 00:23:18.084
I want to help somebody see what's next, whatever it is, and however it is that
00:23:18.084 --> 00:23:20.035
God is leading. I want to help you see what's next.
00:23:20.192 --> 00:23:22.254
Man, that is so good. So rich.
00:23:22.254 --> 00:23:25.434
Well, tell us a little bit, as long as we're calling audibles,
00:23:25.434 --> 00:23:30.554
tell us a little bit about this handcrafted calling process from Clarity House.
00:23:30.554 --> 00:23:32.394
I'm looking at their website right now.
00:23:32.914 --> 00:23:38.274
I just did in a 10 second glance, I'm thinking this is a way for a pastor or
00:23:38.274 --> 00:23:43.834
church leader, something that goes beyond like a spiritual gift assessment that
00:23:43.834 --> 00:23:46.934
goes beyond the personality types or whatever
00:23:47.314 --> 00:23:52.264
and helps you dig deeper into knowing who you are and to understanding your calling.
00:23:52.264 --> 00:23:55.754
Am I barking up the right tree there? Is that what this process is about?
00:23:55.754 --> 00:24:01.164
It is. It is well beyond a spiritual gifts assessment. It is about helping people
00:24:01.164 --> 00:24:06.304
discover their God-unique calling in life. And how do they reframe that?
00:24:06.304 --> 00:24:07.795
So one of the struggles...
00:24:08.154 --> 00:24:11.359
Oftentimes whenever it comes to the church world is people say,
00:24:11.359 --> 00:24:13.692
I want to serve, I want to engage in some way.
00:24:13.820 --> 00:24:19.389
And we can take, you know, fortune 500 CEOs, or we can take chief marketing
00:24:19.389 --> 00:24:23.889
officers, or we can take the plumber next door. And we say to all of them,
00:24:23.889 --> 00:24:28.419
okay, yeah, I need you to hold this door and say hello to people as they come in.
00:24:28.657 --> 00:24:32.587
Now, don't get me wrong, that's absolutely essential. And I think that that's a great resource
00:24:32.942 --> 00:24:36.223
for somebody that wants to serve. However, if somebody's wanting to go deeper
00:24:36.223 --> 00:24:41.103
in understanding God's unique calling on their life and how they become,
00:24:41.883 --> 00:24:47.274
more obedient to the great commission and by means of the great commandment,
00:24:47.425 --> 00:24:50.420
it's probably not gonna be through just hold this door.
00:24:51.783 --> 00:24:55.633
So it's not a spiritual inventory. It's not a gifts test. It's really a,
00:24:55.766 --> 00:25:01.142
how do I begin to look at the world through the lens of how God has wired me
00:25:01.293 --> 00:25:05.823
so that I can carry out the work that God has called me to do every single day.
00:25:05.823 --> 00:25:10.373
I haven't done this in a while, so it's a struggle for me to remember the math.
00:25:10.373 --> 00:25:15.027
But I used to talk about Malcolm Gladwell's 10,000-hour rule.
00:25:15.161 --> 00:25:20.118
In his book, Outliers, I listened to that book in 2018, 2019,
00:25:20.264 --> 00:25:22.301
and that's when I began to do the math.
00:25:22.446 --> 00:25:25.569
So the disciples, they were with Jesus for three years.
00:25:25.709 --> 00:25:30.413
If they spent intentionally 10 hours a day, which according to what we can see
00:25:30.413 --> 00:25:33.843
with scripture, They were pretty much with him for three years nonstop.
00:25:33.843 --> 00:25:38.743
But if they spent 10 hours a day for three years and concentrated trying to
00:25:38.743 --> 00:25:41.863
grow in greater intimacy and relationship with Christ and understanding what
00:25:41.863 --> 00:25:45.343
it is he had called them to do, do you know how many hours they reach at the
00:25:45.343 --> 00:25:46.274
end of those three years?
00:25:46.420 --> 00:25:47.552
Right at 10,000.
00:25:47.656 --> 00:25:48.811
Just over 10,000.
00:25:49.096 --> 00:25:53.711
Just over 10,000. And then I began to do the math on the average churchgoer.
00:25:53.833 --> 00:25:59.383
How much is the average churchgoer investing in growing a greater intimacy and
00:25:59.383 --> 00:26:00.648
relationship with Christ?
00:26:00.932 --> 00:26:06.087
On a weekly basis. And I said, well, if I said three hours a week intentionally,
00:26:06.249 --> 00:26:10.853
so this is including Sunday morning service, intentionally doing it three hours
00:26:10.853 --> 00:26:14.040
a week, how long would it take them to get
00:26:14.352 --> 00:26:18.143
to 10 000 hours i want to think it was something along the line i can't do the
00:26:18.143 --> 00:26:20.773
math maybe you've got a computer in front of you could do the math it was something
00:26:20.773 --> 00:26:25.603
along the lines it was over 70 years oh yeah on average i would probably put
00:26:25.603 --> 00:26:27.613
it close to an hour which you're looking at about.
00:26:28.133 --> 00:26:31.063
192 years for them to reach that 10 000 hour rule
00:26:31.179 --> 00:26:36.013
and we wonder why we have such a problem whenever it comes to spiritual growth
00:26:36.013 --> 00:26:40.123
and development in the local church and so the purpose of the handcrafted calling
00:26:40.123 --> 00:26:43.773
what i really see the sweet spot being is that when people understand their
00:26:43.773 --> 00:26:44.930
Ephesians 2.10 calling.
00:26:45.040 --> 00:26:47.339
Now it's not about what they do at church.
00:26:47.635 --> 00:26:51.323
It's about how they're living their life and how they're carrying out the great
00:26:51.323 --> 00:26:54.775
commission by means of the great commandment in their everyday life.
00:26:54.920 --> 00:27:00.568
And now they're framing everything through the lens of this is how I glorify God and make disciples.
00:27:00.713 --> 00:27:04.313
So for me, simplified to two words, it's discovering next.
00:27:04.633 --> 00:27:08.913
I want to help you discover what's next in God's and how God is working in your
00:27:08.913 --> 00:27:12.161
life. Now, for some cases, it may just be a profession of faith.
00:27:12.306 --> 00:27:14.773
In others, it may be an active faith.
00:27:15.110 --> 00:27:20.218
It may be taking a next step in some venture or some opportunity,
00:27:20.218 --> 00:27:23.788
but I want to help somebody discover next. If I'm helping them discover next,
00:27:23.788 --> 00:27:27.544
then I'm living into that calling and I'm framing everything that to lens.
00:27:27.683 --> 00:27:31.428
And so as people discover their unique calling and they begin to live it out,
00:27:31.579 --> 00:27:35.338
it changes how they interact with the world. And especially if they see it as,
00:27:35.338 --> 00:27:39.758
hey, this is how God has called and equipped me to make disciples and glorify
00:27:39.758 --> 00:27:40.698
him in everything that I do.
00:27:40.998 --> 00:27:46.397
That's a long answer to a short question, but I feel like it's helpful to kind of illustrate that out.
00:27:46.543 --> 00:27:50.348
No, I think that's, yeah, I was just going to say, I think that's so good, Chris.
00:27:50.348 --> 00:27:55.618
I think that this, you know, ties into some of the questions we wanted to talk
00:27:55.918 --> 00:28:00.518
with you about today, specifically as we think about the idea
00:28:01.018 --> 00:28:06.908
of understanding how we are designed, God's work of calling us to be and become
00:28:06.908 --> 00:28:10.384
disciples and then to make disciples, right?
00:28:10.598 --> 00:28:14.169
Right. Which I know is a great passion of yours as well.
00:28:14.309 --> 00:28:19.438
So maybe we could talk today a little bit about the drift in a lot of our churches
00:28:19.438 --> 00:28:25.971
away from the core function of making disciples and how that happens.
00:28:26.578 --> 00:28:30.698
How do churches end up unintentionally? I've never met a church yet that's told
00:28:30.698 --> 00:28:36.218
me, hey, we intentionally drifted away from making disciples as our primary calling.
00:28:36.218 --> 00:28:40.618
Now, maybe they're out there, but I haven't found that church yet that's at
00:28:40.618 --> 00:28:45.961
least vocalized that that way to say, hey, we just decided we gave up on disciple making, right?
00:28:46.141 --> 00:28:49.718
They would all tell you, you know, in good Southern Baptist churches way,
00:28:49.718 --> 00:28:53.455
you know, I can find most of them can recite the Great Commission.
00:28:53.600 --> 00:29:00.578
But living it out and understanding how do churches drift away from their purpose?
00:29:01.278 --> 00:29:07.033
And what are some of the key things that maybe take the place of those churches' purpose?
00:29:07.271 --> 00:29:11.956
Is it just an activity-first mindset, prioritizing programming?
00:29:12.118 --> 00:29:18.243
How do we shift into that mentality? And then maybe what is the cure for that?
00:29:18.629 --> 00:29:22.898
So let me answer the first thing. How does it happen or how did it happen?
00:29:23.478 --> 00:29:26.924
There's a quote by Peter Drucker that I really like, and I had to look it up
00:29:27.064 --> 00:29:30.118
earlier because I wanted to make sure that I got it right. But he said that
00:29:30.118 --> 00:29:35.098
the most valuable insights lie in the hardest things to measure.
00:29:35.918 --> 00:29:39.998
And I feel like in the church world, specifically for us as Southern Baptists,
00:29:39.998 --> 00:29:47.438
but also just churches in general, we have set the metric of success really,
00:29:47.438 --> 00:29:50.503
really about the easy things to count. Yeah.
00:29:50.648 --> 00:29:55.141
It's about the budgets. It's about the butts in the seats. And it's about the buildings.
00:29:55.286 --> 00:30:00.215
Those three elements have really defined the measures of success.
00:30:00.319 --> 00:30:03.895
What's your operating budget at your church? How many people attend your church?
00:30:04.040 --> 00:30:06.380
And what type of building do you have? How large is that?
00:30:07.358 --> 00:30:10.495
If you go to, we just had the Southern Baptist Convention.
00:30:10.623 --> 00:30:14.938
If you were attending there and you were to be a fly on the wall or to be a
00:30:14.958 --> 00:30:20.010
creep standing in the hallway, just overhearing conversations,
00:30:20.558 --> 00:30:24.858
I have no doubt at some point, hundreds, if not thousands of times,
00:30:24.858 --> 00:30:27.104
someone said, how many people attend your church?
00:30:27.417 --> 00:30:30.894
What's attendance like? Because it's an easy metric.
00:30:31.810 --> 00:30:35.328
But you multiply that over time, And that becomes the standard.
00:30:35.328 --> 00:30:41.608
Even our own reporting, the ACP, the annual church profile, the metrics are
00:30:41.608 --> 00:30:45.948
around all of those things. Let's count how many baptisms, how many are in Sunday
00:30:45.948 --> 00:30:49.846
school, how many are in worship, how many were in vacation Bible school.
00:30:49.991 --> 00:30:52.075
It's all around those numbers.
00:30:52.406 --> 00:30:56.055
And don't get me wrong, numbers are not a bad thing. Numbers are good things.
00:30:56.055 --> 00:30:59.675
It's indicative of, hey, we should be measuring these things.
00:30:59.675 --> 00:31:01.683
These are metrics that are important.
00:31:01.810 --> 00:31:06.414
But when those become the standard, those become the expectation of success,
00:31:06.658 --> 00:31:08.620
that's when we're going to start running into a problem.
00:31:08.736 --> 00:31:14.095
The point of Peter Drucker's statement that the most valuable insights lie in
00:31:14.095 --> 00:31:18.475
the things that are hardest to measure is that we should be measuring those
00:31:18.475 --> 00:31:21.083
hard things and trying to measure those hard things.
00:31:21.216 --> 00:31:23.927
Where are we seeing life transformation at?
00:31:24.061 --> 00:31:29.599
Marriages being restored, fathers leading their families, caring well.
00:31:29.727 --> 00:31:34.975
Where do we see people that are engaging in their workplaces and they're creating
00:31:34.975 --> 00:31:38.044
space for disciple making in their everyday life?
00:31:38.189 --> 00:31:41.475
Where do we see those things happening? Let's begin to measure those things.
00:31:41.475 --> 00:31:46.345
And that can't be done on a wide level a lot of the times, but it should be
00:31:46.345 --> 00:31:52.417
thought about and thought about hard on a local level and thought about in individual context and
00:31:52.614 --> 00:31:56.445
be brought into the conversation that's happening around the tables when pastors
00:31:56.445 --> 00:31:58.878
meet together and when church leaders are gathering.
00:31:59.023 --> 00:32:03.485
What are the things that we are measuring as a church? And I think that that
00:32:03.485 --> 00:32:06.773
will begin to shift the conversation significantly.
00:32:07.180 --> 00:32:11.093
Along those lines, how can churches and pastors
00:32:11.255 --> 00:32:18.318
kind of slide into or drift into that machine kind of mentality that you talked
00:32:18.318 --> 00:32:22.958
about, where the whole purpose is to recruit people,
00:32:23.289 --> 00:32:27.458
no matter who they are, no matter what their giftings are, no matter what their
00:32:27.458 --> 00:32:32.348
abilities are, into positions that kind of keep the machine of the church running?
00:32:32.575 --> 00:32:39.919
How can we drift into that mentality and keep drifting over and over away from
00:32:40.070 --> 00:32:45.212
a Great Commission disciple-making mentality when
00:32:45.708 --> 00:32:48.448
it just seems like that's all Southern Baptists talk about?
00:32:48.448 --> 00:32:52.138
We almost want to change the name of our convention to Great Commission Baptist.
00:32:52.138 --> 00:32:57.995
So what is it about church leadership that causes that drift away from
00:32:58.308 --> 00:33:03.504
these primary things that we're called to? Why do we keep sliding down the same
00:33:03.626 --> 00:33:05.205
hill over and over again?
00:33:05.338 --> 00:33:08.621
I don't think it's any one specific thing. And that's where the problem comes
00:33:08.621 --> 00:33:11.621
in. It would be nice to be able to find a switch to be able to go click.
00:33:11.621 --> 00:33:15.251
We turn that off. It's taken care of. But it's not one specific thing.
00:33:15.251 --> 00:33:18.690
And it happens at a grassroots level. It happens on an individual level.
00:33:18.840 --> 00:33:21.296
So let me take just for my own experience.
00:33:21.453 --> 00:33:25.711
I come into a church. There is a level of expectation when you walk into that
00:33:25.711 --> 00:33:28.150
church of this is how we do church.
00:33:28.296 --> 00:33:32.161
This is what church is supposed to look like. And that expectation level is
00:33:32.161 --> 00:33:34.466
built upon what's been done in the past.
00:33:34.600 --> 00:33:37.375
It's built upon what they're seeing at other places.
00:33:37.525 --> 00:33:42.518
It's based on what has worked at other places. It's based on what works here
00:33:42.651 --> 00:33:44.805
and based on the community context.
00:33:44.962 --> 00:33:49.801
So it's based on all of those factors. But you come in and there's that expectation
00:33:49.801 --> 00:33:53.081
level of this is what we do, or this is what we should be doing.
00:33:53.081 --> 00:34:00.966
And it's also been pushed down. In the late 80s, early 90s, we became very programmatic heavy.
00:34:01.094 --> 00:34:05.721
We had Lifeway and Lifeway was pushing out materials and everybody was doing
00:34:05.721 --> 00:34:09.381
the same vacation Bible school and everybody was doing the same discipleship,
00:34:09.381 --> 00:34:10.893
making material, let me clarify.
00:34:11.131 --> 00:34:15.902
They were doing the same programmatic disciple training material.
00:34:16.140 --> 00:34:19.931
It wasn't necessarily that they were making disciples, but they were just educating
00:34:19.931 --> 00:34:22.874
people were using the same material and calling it discipleship.
00:34:23.019 --> 00:34:24.221
Were disciples made in it?
00:34:24.401 --> 00:34:29.471
I have no doubt. But what was the emphasis? The emphasis was more towards here,
00:34:29.471 --> 00:34:33.231
we have a training center instead of it being a, we have a teaching center instead
00:34:33.231 --> 00:34:34.361
of it being a training center.
00:34:35.221 --> 00:34:39.162
And so it's not one specific set of circumstances.
00:34:39.289 --> 00:34:41.901
I think it's a combination of all those things. And so as a pastor,
00:34:41.901 --> 00:34:44.746
you come in and you have all these expectations laid on you.
00:34:45.065 --> 00:34:49.413
Also, you're the professional. You're the one that's called to execute.
00:34:49.535 --> 00:34:51.520
You're the one that's called to do it.
00:34:51.654 --> 00:34:54.963
You don't do those things. What's the consequence in some cases?
00:34:55.149 --> 00:34:58.701
The consequence is people leave the church. That's best case scenario.
00:34:58.875 --> 00:35:03.659
Worst case scenario is they say, you know what? We don't like you anymore. It's time for you to go.
00:35:04.019 --> 00:35:07.188
We need to find a new one who will do things the way that we want to do them.
00:35:07.316 --> 00:35:11.983
So there is a pressure that exists there, And that's hard to contend with.
00:35:12.140 --> 00:35:16.128
And because that's hard to contend with, there is this justification,
00:35:16.279 --> 00:35:18.258
and then it just becomes, this is what we do.
00:35:18.380 --> 00:35:21.828
This is what I have to do for a little while. This is what I have to do in this season.
00:35:21.985 --> 00:35:24.859
This is what we're having to do right now. And eventually it becomes,
00:35:24.859 --> 00:35:31.156
this is just what we do, because any desire to try to change things is met with sort of resistance.
00:35:31.295 --> 00:35:35.129
And when we meet that resistance, there are consequences. And so we have a tendency
00:35:35.129 --> 00:35:39.069
to avoid it. And then we don't have the energy to be able to contribute towards00:35:39.069 --> 00:35:41.396
the lasting change, towards the small things.00:35:41.518 --> 00:35:45.789
If you're running so many programs as a pastor and a church leader that you00:35:45.789 --> 00:35:50.889
don't have the capacity in your schedule or in your own energy level to make00:35:50.889 --> 00:35:53.638
disciples, then it's just never gonna change.00:35:53.853 --> 00:35:57.769
You can say you wanna make disciples, but you're so exhausted that you don't00:35:57.769 --> 00:36:01.239
have the capacity to be able to do it. And so I think it's a combination of00:36:01.239 --> 00:36:03.518
all of those factors. What's the solution?00:36:03.762 --> 00:36:08.309
I think the solution is clarity. Let's become clear on what God has really called00:36:08.309 --> 00:36:13.039
us to do and have some honest conversations about that and evaluate, are we doing it?00:36:13.039 --> 00:36:16.629
I used to ask a church four questions. Now I've got to try to remember the four00:36:16.629 --> 00:36:20.049
questions. This wasn't on our list of things. And now let me try to remember00:36:20.049 --> 00:36:21.576
those four questions. It's been a couple of years.00:36:21.732 --> 00:36:25.539
Four questions were, whose church is this? That was the first question.00:36:25.859 --> 00:36:26.539
Good question.00:36:26.539 --> 00:36:29.239
Whose church is this? And we can go to Scripture because of that.00:36:29.239 --> 00:36:31.190
And we see in Scripture that this is Christ's church.00:36:31.899 --> 00:36:34.529
And we point that out in Scripture. If this is Christ's church,00:36:34.529 --> 00:36:35.979
then what is it that he has called us to do?00:36:36.319 --> 00:36:38.339
Then we go to the Great Commission by means of the Great Commandment.00:36:38.659 --> 00:36:40.797
Now, let's begin to evaluate what?00:36:41.115 --> 00:36:45.185
What it is that we're currently doing in light of the Great Commission and the Great Commandment.00:36:45.342 --> 00:36:49.187
Let's list all of the things that we are presently doing and say,00:36:49.187 --> 00:36:53.957
how is this helping us glorify Christ in the local church and accomplish the00:36:53.957 --> 00:36:55.716
Great Commission by means of the Great Commandment?00:36:55.849 --> 00:36:59.831
And if it's not, now let's begin to the last question, what are we going to do about it?00:37:01.027 --> 00:37:04.387
Because if there are certain things that are helping us accomplish the mission00:37:04.387 --> 00:37:09.131
that God has given us, then we need to either adjust those things or we need to stop doing them.00:37:09.252 --> 00:37:11.767
We need to adjust them to where they help us accomplish that,00:37:11.928 --> 00:37:15.717
or we need to stop doing them entirely so that we can create space to actually00:37:15.717 --> 00:37:16.840
start making disciples.00:37:16.990 --> 00:37:21.117
But let me tell you, that's a very, very uncomfortable situation because we00:37:21.117 --> 00:37:25.007
have sacred cows that exist in churches and programs that this is what we've00:37:25.007 --> 00:37:26.799
always done. And so it's hard.00:37:26.939 --> 00:37:32.457
And for some pastors and church leaders, they want to avoid that sort of confrontation.00:37:32.457 --> 00:37:37.881
And I'm not bashing those that do avoid that conversation. It comes with scars00:37:38.032 --> 00:37:39.512
when you begin to face it head on.00:37:40.040 --> 00:37:42.676
Especially if you're just trying to keep your head above water,00:37:42.676 --> 00:37:46.768
it's really, really hard to step in realizing that's what you're going to face.00:37:46.913 --> 00:37:52.166
Yeah, absolutely. Well, stories are really powerful. And I'm going to ask both00:37:52.166 --> 00:37:55.197
of you guys kind of a story along these lines.00:37:55.389 --> 00:37:58.767
Anonymize the story sort of as much as you want to.00:37:58.872 --> 00:38:04.183
And we can use negative examples or positive examples because both of those can be very powerful.00:38:04.433 --> 00:38:10.906
Are either of you aware of churches who either A, recognize this kind of drift00:38:10.906 --> 00:38:17.596
away from great commandment informed, great commission disciple making and turned around or B,00:38:18.399 --> 00:38:24.846
failed to recognize that they had gotten so into the machine mentality that00:38:24.846 --> 00:38:31.986
basically it just grinded the church to a utter halt and ceasing.00:38:31.986 --> 00:38:39.796
So do you guys have negative examples or positive examples of churches that face this issue?00:38:40.276 --> 00:38:43.976
I'll tell you what, a story that came to mind just while you were asking the00:38:43.976 --> 00:38:52.735
question that ties so well, I think, into what Chris was just talking about is in one of our00:38:52.932 --> 00:39:00.601
GCA Renew churches, I remember well this morning when I was teaching a church about00:39:01.556 --> 00:39:03.794
having a missional mindset to prayer.00:39:04.055 --> 00:39:09.016
It was the focus, right? And sitting in the back of the room was one of the00:39:09.016 --> 00:39:13.563
great old saints, the old lady that really does know Jesus and has known him.00:39:13.761 --> 00:39:18.686
And she's 84 years old, right? And but while I'm teaching, I could tell she's00:39:18.686 --> 00:39:19.802
getting uncomfortable.00:39:19.942 --> 00:39:23.696
And then I see a look cross her face. And I've been pastoring,00:39:23.696 --> 00:39:27.395
you know, so long now I can tell, oh, I've crossed a line.00:39:27.581 --> 00:39:29.636
I've made someone upset.00:39:30.076 --> 00:39:34.420
In some way. And I could tell this look on her face. She is not happy.00:39:34.420 --> 00:39:39.230
She is not happy about something. So I finished my my little teaching time and00:39:39.230 --> 00:39:41.379
I ask, of course, you know, do you have questions?00:39:41.535 --> 00:39:45.220
Her hand goes up and I'm like, all right, you know, I'm waiting for it.00:39:45.220 --> 00:39:49.200
I'm waiting for the blast because that's what I'm used to a lot of times is,00:39:49.200 --> 00:39:52.440
you know, when you try to bring people to the clarity that Chris is talking00:39:52.440 --> 00:39:58.350
about, that's a deeply disconcerting moment for a lot of people and a lot of churches, right?00:39:58.350 --> 00:40:02.880
It's very altering to their mentality and their perspective.00:40:03.206 --> 00:40:07.319
And I do think guys working in church renewal in particular need to be sympathetic00:40:07.319 --> 00:40:12.619
to that because we're asking people to examine realities that they hold precious00:40:12.619 --> 00:40:14.899
and a lot of times for good reason, right?00:40:14.899 --> 00:40:18.559
It's not just that they're just defending this program. They're defending the00:40:18.559 --> 00:40:23.058
fact that that program 40 years ago really did help fulfill the Great Commission.00:40:23.366 --> 00:40:28.359
It really did help them do some of those things. They just failed to see the00:40:28.359 --> 00:40:32.489
shifts sometimes. Sometimes that's true. So this sweet older saint sitting in00:40:32.489 --> 00:40:35.835
the back of the room, she raises her hand. I call on her.00:40:35.968 --> 00:40:41.419
And I thought I was doing this very simple teaching on just how do you pray00:40:41.669 --> 00:40:44.090
for lost people to come to church?00:40:44.229 --> 00:40:49.249
And I'd given them six categories of lost people to pray for specifically for00:40:49.249 --> 00:40:51.079
God to bring into their church.00:40:51.195 --> 00:40:53.919
And she starts off and she's from Alabama.00:40:54.239 --> 00:40:59.029
So both of you guys can maybe resonate. She's got that soft Alabama accent.00:40:59.029 --> 00:41:01.799
And she's been out here in California though. And she's like,00:41:01.799 --> 00:41:06.819
I've been a member of this church since 1963. And she said, and I have been00:41:06.819 --> 00:41:09.974
in Southern Baptist churches my entire life. She's 84.00:41:10.096 --> 00:41:15.922
And she said, I want to know why no one taught me to pray like this.00:41:16.497 --> 00:41:21.749
She wasn't disputing the need for it. It was It was one of those moments that00:41:21.749 --> 00:41:24.259
just was heartbreaking to me.00:41:24.709 --> 00:41:28.679
Not that someone needed to follow the model I was advocating for that morning,00:41:28.679 --> 00:41:30.919
but just simply that a saint could00:41:30.919 --> 00:41:35.525
get to 84 years old, attend a Southern Baptist church her entire life,00:41:35.856 --> 00:41:42.089
be a part of a particular church within our association since 1963, and have not00:41:42.449 --> 00:41:48.889
one pastor teach her how to actively pray for lost people to come into their church.00:41:49.463 --> 00:41:53.933
And it was heartbreaking and heart-wrenching. And that moment of clarity that00:41:53.933 --> 00:41:59.213
came to her and to the others in the room, there was just like this silence after that question.00:41:59.213 --> 00:42:02.893
And it was both encouraging and, like I said, heartbreaking to me because I00:42:02.893 --> 00:42:07.903
realize, once again, so often our leadership is not aimed towards what Chris00:42:07.903 --> 00:42:13.973
has been talking about, bringing people that clarity and bringing them in alignment to the mission of God.00:42:13.973 --> 00:42:17.036
So that's a story that came to my mind when you were asking that question,00:42:17.309 --> 00:42:22.417
Pastor Chase. Chris, you've got a million stories, I am sure, along these lines.00:42:22.539 --> 00:42:25.573
I've got stories on both sides. The only thing that I would say,00:42:25.873 --> 00:42:29.853
and I love that illustration that you use of that sweet lady, is00:42:30.293 --> 00:42:36.213
I think that our seminaries and Bible colleges have done very well at educating00:42:36.213 --> 00:42:39.533
us to the point that we can talk over people's heads.00:42:39.893 --> 00:42:45.834
And that education is not a bad thing. It only becomes a bad thing when we use00:42:45.991 --> 00:42:50.183
the big words and that people just, Donald Miller, there's a phrase that I've00:42:50.183 --> 00:42:54.133
started using over and over, and I like the phrase. I'm sure you're familiar with Donald Miller.00:42:54.982 --> 00:42:58.604
He wrote Blue Like Jazz. It got some negative reviews.00:42:59.272 --> 00:43:03.613
From a theological standpoint, some people may not be in very good alignment00:43:03.613 --> 00:43:08.523
with him. And my quoting him on this is because of the movement,00:43:08.523 --> 00:43:11.113
the direction that he's gone now with his career.00:43:11.264 --> 00:43:16.523
But he talks about, with StoryBrand, zero cognitive load whenever it comes to00:43:16.523 --> 00:43:19.933
having conversations with people, when it comes to marketing.00:43:19.933 --> 00:43:22.839
Now, he's marketing to the business world, not to the church world.00:43:22.996 --> 00:43:27.390
But I think zero cognitive load is a great, great phrase.00:43:27.535 --> 00:43:31.823
When you're having a conversation with a church member and you're talking about00:43:31.823 --> 00:43:36.504
biblical matters, you really need to talk in terms of zero cognitive load.00:43:36.707 --> 00:43:41.363
Otherwise, they're going to hear it and then they're going to move on because00:43:41.363 --> 00:43:45.343
it just takes too much mental energy to figure out what you're talking about00:43:45.343 --> 00:43:46.683
for the majority of people.00:43:46.683 --> 00:43:50.653
Now, do I mean we need to lower things as a base common denominator to where00:43:50.653 --> 00:43:52.317
we're not helping to educate?00:43:52.659 --> 00:43:57.466
Absolutely not. But there does come a point where if people just don't know,00:43:57.594 --> 00:43:59.637
let's not talk all over their heads.00:43:59.788 --> 00:44:03.299
Let's make it to where it's relatable so they can hear the gospel.00:44:03.299 --> 00:44:07.929
And then you give them, this is how you apply it in your life as a teacher.00:44:08.429 --> 00:44:12.267
This is how it shows up as a plumber, as an electrician.00:44:12.424 --> 00:44:18.020
This is how it shows up, you know, on the job site. This is how it shows up in your office.00:44:18.171 --> 00:44:22.499
And this is how you carry this board. Or here's one way that you can carry this board.00:44:22.499 --> 00:44:26.729
You have to make it super easy for them because we're in a day and age where00:44:26.729 --> 00:44:28.869
everything has become super easy for them.00:44:28.869 --> 00:44:33.199
It's the reason why the Christian Standard Bible has become so popular.00:44:33.199 --> 00:44:37.099
It's because it's written in a fifth grade reading level because they know we00:44:37.099 --> 00:44:41.437
have to simplify this down because people aren't taking the time to process through it.00:44:41.559 --> 00:44:45.402
For those that want to take the time to process through it, take them deep,00:44:45.623 --> 00:44:49.699
do it. But that's not the majority of people. And it's probably not the majority00:44:49.699 --> 00:44:52.496
of people sitting in your pews as much as you want it to be.00:44:53.262 --> 00:44:53.808
So good.00:44:54.052 --> 00:44:58.299
Okay. Well, I think that's a good midway point to break up the interview.00:44:58.299 --> 00:45:02.289
We are going to have part two with Chris Reynolds next week.00:45:02.289 --> 00:45:07.109
And it actually gets even deeper and more interesting. So I really think the00:45:07.109 --> 00:45:10.449
first half of the interview was great. He did a great job. Second half is even00:45:10.449 --> 00:45:11.957
better. It's going to be awesome.00:45:12.118 --> 00:45:15.719
So stay tuned for that. And if you're not subscribed now, you really should00:45:15.719 --> 00:45:19.827
be at our website, everychurchflourishing.com.00:45:20.181 --> 00:45:25.209
In the next couple of weeks, we're going to launch a brand new feature of the00:45:25.529 --> 00:45:29.696
Every Church Flourishing podcast, and we're calling it Pastor Disaster.00:45:30.015 --> 00:45:36.429
What is a pastor disaster? Well, this is stories from listeners who are pastors00:45:36.429 --> 00:45:43.109
of any stripes, even church leaders, about disastrous things that have happened in your church.00:45:43.109 --> 00:45:49.339
Now, we will protect your anonymity, should you so desire, and the anonymity00:45:49.339 --> 00:45:51.958
of your church, should you so desire.00:45:52.202 --> 00:45:56.709
But what we want from you is funny, scary,00:45:57.089 --> 00:46:03.889
Cautionary tales, interesting things of ministry that have happened to you that00:46:04.229 --> 00:46:08.054
at least temporarily ended up in disaster.00:46:08.286 --> 00:46:14.770
So if you've got a pastor disaster, I'm going to ask you to reach out and send us an email and00:46:15.107 --> 00:46:18.050
and then we'll schedule an interview with you.00:46:18.294 --> 00:46:23.002
You can also just kind of record it on our website, everychurchflourishing.com.00:46:23.002 --> 00:46:27.443
There is a way to leave a voicemail if it's a short and sweet pastor disaster,00:46:27.663 --> 00:46:31.452
but if it's got a little bit more bulk to it, we'll spend two,00:46:31.452 --> 00:46:35.924
three, four, five minutes talking to you and set up an interview time soon.00:46:36.080 --> 00:46:41.712
All you got to do is contact us through the contact page on everychurchflourishing.com.00:46:41.712 --> 00:46:47.197
Let me give you a couple of mild, low-level examples of pastor disasters,00:46:47.423 --> 00:46:52.512
and I experienced one today. Today, our church, Valley Baptist in Salinas,00:46:52.512 --> 00:46:54.172
California, had Dr. C.J.00:46:54.512 --> 00:47:00.042
Wan of the Great Commission Association, who was just on the ECF podcast a few00:47:00.042 --> 00:47:03.542
episodes ago talking about prayer, and I thought it was so good.00:47:03.542 --> 00:47:07.513
I asked him to come preach to our church, and he did today, and it was awesome.00:47:07.809 --> 00:47:12.012
And today is Sunday as I'm recording this. Last night, Saturday night,00:47:12.012 --> 00:47:16.562
my wife, Janet, was sad as she was going to sleep that she was going to have00:47:16.562 --> 00:47:20.963
to be in children's church today and miss Dr. CJ's sermon.00:47:21.103 --> 00:47:26.692
So overnight, I kind of made a plan with my son that we would take over children's00:47:26.692 --> 00:47:30.932
church for tomorrow so that Janet and my daughter Phoebe didn't have to.00:47:30.932 --> 00:47:33.642
And I will tell you, I used to be a children's minister way,00:47:33.642 --> 00:47:38.262
way back in the day, but it's been a long time. In fact, in the eight-plus years00:47:38.262 --> 00:47:43.984
I've been in California, today was the first day I've been in Children's Church and00:47:44.326 --> 00:47:47.705
In eight years. So that was really interesting.00:47:47.978 --> 00:47:54.503
And within about 10 minutes of being there, I was teaching on today's passage,00:47:54.503 --> 00:47:57.213
which was all about Jesus being Lord of the Sabbath.00:47:57.213 --> 00:48:03.113
And a visitor, a young lady raised her hand in our children's church room.00:48:03.113 --> 00:48:08.763
And she said, sir, my finger's stuck. I was like, your finger's stuck?00:48:08.763 --> 00:48:13.856
What do you mean? So her hand was under the table, and as I began to look,00:48:14.065 --> 00:48:17.850
it indeed was wrapped around the table leg and00:48:18.216 --> 00:48:25.526
And it appeared to be stuck in the braces of the table, between the braces and the table leg.00:48:25.526 --> 00:48:35.486
So I gallantly began to try to gently tug her finger out, but I misunderstood the situation.00:48:35.486 --> 00:48:41.738
As it happens, her finger was not stuck in between the braces and the pole.00:48:42.016 --> 00:48:49.087
Her finger was stuck in a hole in the table leg, And I didn't realize it.00:48:49.249 --> 00:48:55.176
And it was my instinct to pull hard to get her out of the predicament she was in.00:48:55.345 --> 00:49:01.736
But praise God, I did not do that. We almost were in the kind of do we need00:49:01.736 --> 00:49:05.836
to call the fire department situation because my son and I worked with her for00:49:05.836 --> 00:49:08.280
several minutes, one of us getting under the table.00:49:08.536 --> 00:49:13.685
And, praise God, we were eventually able to pull her finger out of the hole00:49:13.923 --> 00:49:20.296
that for some reason was in a children's church table that was made for children00:49:20.296 --> 00:49:22.686
and is children finger-sized.00:49:22.686 --> 00:49:27.826
So I would totally, when I was a kid, stick my finger in those kind of places00:49:27.826 --> 00:49:30.920
and probably get them trapped just like she did.00:49:31.180 --> 00:49:34.612
That was a narrowly averted pastor disaster.00:49:34.908 --> 00:49:39.956
One of the pastor disasters we're going to tell you about in an upcoming episode00:49:40.276 --> 00:49:47.255
was not averted so well. We're going to call it a mass poisoning incident.00:49:47.679 --> 00:49:52.900
And although everybody turned out to be okay, it was almost not that way.00:49:52.900 --> 00:49:58.230
That'll be upcoming on a future episode when we discuss that mass poisoning00:49:58.230 --> 00:50:01.960
incident at a church in Alabama that I pastored.00:50:01.960 --> 00:50:07.610
Let me close out real quick with our weekly look at what's going on in the Great00:50:07.610 --> 00:50:13.520
Commission Association Fellowship of Churches, which is the sponsor of this podcast.00:50:13.520 --> 00:50:22.310
You can get in touch with us at our website, which is gcasbc.org. That's gcasbc.org.00:50:22.310 --> 00:50:27.260
We are a family of churches in Central California, and we would love to partner00:50:27.260 --> 00:50:32.680
with you, especially if you are a church leader or represent a church or a pastor00:50:32.680 --> 00:50:36.561
and you are doing ministry alone. We could be your team.00:50:36.863 --> 00:50:41.800
Coming up at the beginning of August, August 1st at First Baptist Gilroy,00:50:42.120 --> 00:50:47.660
we have partnered with the California Southern Baptist Convention Evangelism Workshop.00:50:47.660 --> 00:50:52.430
And if you are a Southern Baptist church, you can get a $1,000 grant pretty00:50:52.430 --> 00:50:56.450
much automatically for outreach. If you come to that, that's Saturday,00:50:56.450 --> 00:50:59.297
August the 1st at First Baptist Gilroy.00:50:59.820 --> 00:51:07.630
More details at GCASBC.org. And September 19th, 2026, which is my dear wife00:51:07.630 --> 00:51:14.390
Janet's birthday, There is a Flourish equipping conference for women in ministry.00:51:14.390 --> 00:51:19.570
The price is great. The location is Journey Christian Fellowship,00:51:19.570 --> 00:51:23.700
which is on Foothill Boulevard in San Luis Obispo, California.00:51:23.700 --> 00:51:27.160
You're going to want to check that out and you can register through our website,00:51:27.160 --> 00:51:30.958
gcasbc.org slash flourish.00:51:31.178 --> 00:51:36.280
We would love to hear from you. We would love to have you recommend our podcast00:51:36.280 --> 00:51:39.480
to other listeners. So please share the show. Thanks for listening.00:51:39.480 --> 00:51:43.105
Back next week, Lord willing, good day to you and God's
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