WEBVTT
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All about helping churches, leaders, and pastors find health,
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encouragement, practical advice, soul care, and resources that work together
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to build up your local fellowship and the broader kingdom of God.
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Join hosts Dr. Michael Stewart, Pastor Chris Cole, and Dr.
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Chase Thompson from California's SBC Great Commission Association as they explore
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the frontiers of ministry and aim for the goal of making every church flourish.
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Hey, welcome in to episode number eight of the every church flourishing podcast
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by the Great Commission Association.
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We have a great discussion for you today. We're going to talk about a sneaky
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enemy of church leaders that may be constricting you right now and you don't even know about it.
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We're also going to talk about a potentially delicious soda to review,
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a resource for church leaders that literally sells for over 60 bucks,
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but we're going to tell you how to get it for absolutely free,
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very, very timely because it's It's all about Easter.
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We're gonna review five top books for Easter on the resurrection to get you
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ready for the celebration of the resurrection of Jesus.
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And we've got more things as well. Well, hey, nothing is sadder than doing a
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soda review by myself, but duty calls and it calls in the form of Zevia Orange Cream Sickle,
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which is a very interesting beverage.
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It is sweetened with stevia. And I picked this soda because as I'm recording
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right now, it's 2.45 in the morning.
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I just finished editing the main interview of the podcast, and it's due out
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Monday morning, so it's way too late for me to drink anything with caffeine in it.
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So I had this little treasure in the fridge, and it's time to give it a shot.
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Zevia is sweetened with stevia, and stevia is a natural plant-based sweetener
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that is 200 times sweeter than sugar, supposedly.
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And it's supposed to be unlike some of the other artificial sweeteners.
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It's supposed to be really pretty healthy.
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And Zevia touts itself as having zero artificial ingredients.
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And it uses natural colorants like a netto.
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And it's gluten-free, which is no big deal because pretty much every major soda
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in the United States is gluten-free.
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But it's got zero fake colors, zero fake sweeteners.
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And I don't care about all that. What I do care about is whether or not it tastes good, right?
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So I grew up on Orange Crush and Sunkist, and I still remember the thrill when
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our school vending machine in high school got Minute Maid orange soda.
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It was like so popular. So I consider myself something of a connoisseur of orange
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soda, and I hope this stuff is good. So let's give it a shot.
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It's got a pretty good smell, not strong, not as strong as I would like it.
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But it smells pretty fresh and citrusy.
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Almost got a peach little smell to it. Maybe that's the creamsicle part. All right, here we go.
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Wow. Yeah. Well, that's tasty. That's really good. Sweeter than I expected.
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If you've ever had stevia before, you know it has a really good first impression
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and maybe the second impression is not so great.
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Nothing is quite like sugar that I've tasted yet in that kind of,
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it tastes good at the beginning, it tastes good at the end.
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Stevia's got a little bit of an aftertaste, and I've had Dr.
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Zevia before, I've had other Zevia soda products, and honestly,
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they're very healthy, so you feel good drinking them.
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But I would say that aftertaste kills it a little bit.
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Not nearly as good as a Coke Zero, which is kind of my go-to,
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or Diet Mountain Dew, especially Diet Mountain Dew Baja Blast.
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But this guy, I'm going to try again.
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You can really taste the orange, really taste the creamsicle.
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Like I'm really shocked that they got the creamsicle flavor down.
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This is impressive. This is good.
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This is an everyday drinking soda, especially at night when you're kind of winding down or whatever.
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So I'm going to give this four and a quarter Spurgeons out of five.
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I'm impressed and I'm going to drink this ongoing in an ongoing way.
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This is not just a one-time thing for me. This is a good drink,
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especially because it's healthy.
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And if you kind of combine the healthiness with the good taste,
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you're really getting very close to a five Spurgeon soda.
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But since we're just grading on taste on this podcast, we'll stick with four and a quarter.
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So I told you earlier about a free book, and I'll tell you about a guy you've
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probably never heard of, or maybe you have.
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If you have, he's relatively new on the scene.
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His name is Dr. Andrew Loke. Yeah.
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And he's a double doctor. He's a clever dude.
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He initially graduated with a medical doctor degree from the National University
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of Singapore, and he worked for seven years as a medical doctor.
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Then he went to Biola University in California, earned a master's degree in philosophy.
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Clever guy, like I said, and then a PhD in theology at King's College in London
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under the supervision of Alistair McGrath. And if you're not familiar with Dr.
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McGrath, he is one of the top theologians and philosophers and apologists in Christendom.
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He graduated from Oxford and Cambridge Universities and he was an Oxford professor. He mentored Dr.
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Loke, who himself is a debater, a theologian, a scientist, and a philosopher.
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And Andrew Loke is a fellow of the International Society for Science and Religion.
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And his book is called Investigating the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.
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Now, I haven't read the book yet, but I just got it. And I'm very impressed
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so far. His approach is, as it says in the title, transdisciplinary.
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And he comes at the resurrection from a historical perspective,
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a scientific perspective, a biblical studies perspective, and a theological perspective.
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And he tackles the resurrection from all of those different vantage points.
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And from what I can read of the reviews and what I've seen so far,
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he does an excellent job of it.
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If you want to find that book for free, you can go to Amazon and look for it.
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Or I've got a link on our website, everychurchflourishing.com.
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That's everychurchflourishing.com. Just look up the show notes for episode eight
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and you can go there and hopefully it will stay free for quite some time.
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Well, today's guest is great. And of course, you would expect me to say that
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as the podcast host or whatever. but I'm not just saying that.
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Emmanuel Marsh did a fantastic job in our interview.
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This has honestly been one of my favorite interviews so far in the Every Church
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Flourishing podcast. One of my favorite interviews I've ever done in over a
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thousand podcast episodes.
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He did so good. And I'm certain this is going to be very helpful and encouraging to you.
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And that you will learn something about burnout and perseverance,
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even if you think you're all good.
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Even if you say, hey, man, all systems are go. I'm not dealing with burnout at all.
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Because here's the thing, Emmanuel is a professional counselor who specializes
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in coaching and counseling church leaders and pastors.
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And he's an old friend and he's going to tell us that the signs of burnout are
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subtle and a lot of people don't see them until it's too late.
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And I think what Emmanuel is gonna do is equip us to know whether or not we
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have burnout on the horizon. So let's go now to the interview,
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and you'll hear more about him.
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So pastors and church leaders, as we've been talking about on the podcast,
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are kind of carrying more than most churches realize.
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A lot of recent research shows that one in four pastors have seriously considered
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leaving ministry in the past year, which is a lot for one year.
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More than half of clergy have at some point between,
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2025 and 2020 considered leaving ministry. 57% say the role is overwhelming.
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Only one in three serious church leader or pastor has somebody they say they can truly confide in.
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And 18% of pastors, so like almost one in five, say they have wrestled with
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really significant thoughts of self-harm or suicide.
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And many of the people leading the church right now are in a place of exhaustion
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and discouragement, hurting, and maybe nearing burnout.
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And if the church is going to be healthy, then we got to take care of our pastors and our leaders.
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And today's guest is Emmanuel Marsh, a guy I've known for many years.
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He's with the Alabama Center for Pastoral Resilience.
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And And rather than me tell everybody about you, Emanuel, how about you introduce
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yourself and give us your background?
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Thanks, Chase. Emanuel Marsh, from Birmingham, Alabama, still in Birmingham,
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Alabama. I'm not as adventurous as you are.
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I lived here my whole life, went to college here three times,
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never moved out of the state, been married for 20 years.
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I'm not a pastor, but I am a preacher and a minister.
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Actually preached this past Sunday. I have one daughter who is 10 years old.
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We have to pick up from school shortly.
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And I don't know if there's anything else interesting about me,
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but that's pretty much me in a nutshell.
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Well, that's a good start. So Emmanuel and I have been on a lot of podcasts together.
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Back in the day, we were part of the Gospel Friends podcast. He was the general.
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I was Captain Crunchy, so he outranked me military-wise.
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And that was, what, 10 years ago or so? We were on a lot of episodes.
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But ever since then, I moved away since at some point you and some friends and
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compatriots started the Alabama Center for Pastoral Resilience.
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So I don't know much about that. Tell us a little bit about that mission.
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So the mission statement is basically to help pastors lead with clarity.
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And, yeah, we started probably in earnest around 2023.
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But the idea had been kicking around 2019. So I'm a counselor by trade.
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I've been a lot of things, a counselor, a teacher, but I'm a trained counselor.
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That's kind of my moneymaker.
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And my colleague Kent, he was a family counselor for a long time as well.
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And he's also a preacher's kid. And so we've got between us,
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we have some ministry adjacent.
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You know, I've worked at churches. He was a sound guy at churches for most of
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his life. And he's a preacher's kid. And so we're around a lot of ministry.
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We've seen how the sausage is made, but really around 2020, you know,
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when everything just was, I guess all hell broke loose is the best way to say it.
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We were hearing from a lot of pastors. We saw more pastors come in for counseling in our,
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kind of practices. And we were like, I wonder if there's something we could
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offer just strictly for pastors.
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And that's when we started kicking around this idea of working just strictly
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for pastors, with pastors and for churches.
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And we started doing that in earnest in 2023.
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So the burnout statistics we're going to talk about in a minute would really
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indicate that there is more and more of mental health, emotional health,
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physical health need among pastors and church leaders.
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So in the three years or so that you have operated the Alabama Center for Pastoral Resilience,
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what kind of things have you generally learned about pastors and church leaders?
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Maybe some of the things you didn't know before.
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Well, some things I probably knew and just didn't realize how big of an issue it was.
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But one of them is that pastors are very isolated.
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They may have a lot of people around them. You got a public ministry,
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people see you, they know who you are.
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And they have people that look like friends and they call friends,
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but they don't really let a lot of people in.
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And so having an outside voice, somebody who's not in their congregation,
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who's not in their church, or maybe not even in their state,
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was pretty valuable for them.
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And so I've known that pastors kind of play things close to the invest in general,
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but I didn't realize how isolating that was.
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I thought that was just kind of part of the gig. That's just what you do.
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You're stoic, you're private. So that's one thing that I really realized,
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like, okay, they're really isolated in a lot of ways.
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Not everybody, but especially maybe the older generation.
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Yeah.
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I'm 47. I think younger pastors tend to keep friendships a little bit more,
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you know, maintain them a little bit better than the old guard did
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But that's that's one. Another one is that and you kind of hear the jokes about
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pastor's families and and the, you know, preacher's kids or the reason they're
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pastors because they come from some kind of dysfunctional thing. Yeah.
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Well, that's not always true, but I didn't realize how much family influenced how a pastor functions.
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And so there is a link between how your relationships are with your family and
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in your, that's your family of origin,
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extended family, and even your household, how much of that goes into how pastors
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function in their leadership roles.
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And so that one, you know, I knew it happened, but not to the extent that it
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did. So that one was a big one as well.
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Yeah, let's rewind a second. One of the things you said was that pastors have
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a tendency, especially the older generation, of playing things close to the vest.
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And I'm roughly your age, a few years older, and I remember being sort of mentored
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and shadow mentored by a lot of different pastors.
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And some of the things that they would try and teach, I should say,
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our generation is exactly that, that you've got to be careful with church members.
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You got to be careful to keep things close to the vest. There can be betrayal.
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There can be church friction. People will use things against you, things like that.
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I'll just be honest with you. I haven't, and maybe I'm an outlier here.
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I haven't had a lot of issues like that.
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You know, one of the ways you and I know each other is from Agape Baptist back
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in Pinson in Birmingham, where David McConnell is the pastor now.
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And back in the day, when I was the pastor of that church, one of my favorite
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things was the Christmas messages that you and David would team teach together from time to time.
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So I know you and I know him very well. I don't know that David,
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Pastor David of Agape is a guy that keeps things super close to his vest either.
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So along those lines, do you think that a pastor should keep things close to the vest?
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Should he be more private with church members or should he be more vulnerable
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or open? What's what's the best counsel there?
00:15:36.166 --> 00:15:42.586
So this, this debate has been raging on. I've seen videos recently of pastors talking about it.
00:15:42.946 --> 00:15:48.166
A matter of fact, Kent, my colleague, he just did a workshop on this very thing.
00:15:48.306 --> 00:15:53.286
And he did a, he, uh, on our blog, there's like a little write up about this idea.
00:15:53.746 --> 00:15:56.446
And I think it depends. I really do.
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My personality is I like to be me all the time for better or worse.
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I don't want to have to look respectable to the congregation and then be dying
00:16:09.226 --> 00:16:12.966
on the inside or, you know, that's just my philosophy of ministry.
00:16:13.306 --> 00:16:15.926
There's this idea of professional distance.
00:16:16.346 --> 00:16:21.746
And so there's, you know, counselors have a similar thing. And so how much is
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too much to share with your clients?
00:16:23.926 --> 00:16:27.086
And I share personal stories with clients all the time.
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And I think it depends on what you're sharing and why you're sharing it.
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And so I think that there is a way to do it and to have friends in the congregation and it be okay.
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But I also think there's an unhealthy way to do it as well, where it's,
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you really don't have personal boundaries.
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That's kind of comes from a different place. And so I don't know if there's
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a right answer, but my bent is toward openness is better.
00:16:55.886 --> 00:16:59.326
Because it takes the pressure off of you to have to be, I don't know,
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Superman or perfect, you know.
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So if I'm preaching, I'll talk about being depressed. I'll talk about marriage struggles.
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You know, I'll appropriately share things. I don't think anybody is particularly
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helped by me looking like I have it all together.
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And so, but it varies. There are those congregations who will eat you alive
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if they have personal information. But I just, I don't know if I'll worry about that. Like, you know,
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Because those times, if that happens, they're going to do it regardless of,
00:17:28.134 --> 00:17:31.814
you know, they don't need a reason. They just need the opportunity.
00:17:32.514 --> 00:17:37.874
I love what you said at the beginning of that. It's you like to be you all the
00:17:37.874 --> 00:17:39.394
time for better or worse.
00:17:39.674 --> 00:17:43.434
I guess I've unconsciously adopted that policy.
00:17:44.614 --> 00:17:52.534
It is fatiguing. it is emotionally hard to try to put on a face,
00:17:52.774 --> 00:17:57.114
a front, and to act like you're some sort of a different person.
00:17:57.574 --> 00:18:02.194
I worked at a seminary for almost 10 years with a bunch of pastors.
00:18:02.354 --> 00:18:05.714
I taught some and helped out with the video, did all sorts of things.
00:18:05.854 --> 00:18:10.154
But just in the course of my life, even though I wasn't raised in a ministry
00:18:10.154 --> 00:18:13.714
household, I know a ton of pastors and I know them, you know,
00:18:13.894 --> 00:18:15.374
behind closed doors, essentially.
00:18:15.694 --> 00:18:22.054
And I know that there may be a few outliers that are genuinely what you would
00:18:22.054 --> 00:18:24.614
think of as saints all the time.
00:18:24.774 --> 00:18:30.834
These are people that almost emanate a glow like Moses did when he came away from meeting with God.
00:18:30.954 --> 00:18:38.494
But most pastors are just normal people who sin and need Jesus. And I am that.
00:18:38.614 --> 00:18:43.334
I'm in that category. And I don't want to put on a, I don't want to put on an act.
00:18:43.494 --> 00:18:46.174
I don't, I'm not saying that it's some sort of noble, you know,
00:18:46.314 --> 00:18:47.614
I'm not a hypocrite kind of thing.
00:18:47.714 --> 00:18:52.574
I am sometimes a hypocrite, but pretending like I'm not pretending like I'm
00:18:52.574 --> 00:18:55.754
some sort of saying it, like you said, it doesn't, it doesn't help anybody.
00:18:55.854 --> 00:19:02.654
So I wear a blazer here in California pretty much every Sunday and I tuck my shirt in.
00:19:03.075 --> 00:19:09.315
And I don't even know why that is maybe the the highest part of my fakery.
00:19:09.575 --> 00:19:12.475
I am not a blazer shirt tucked in guy.
00:19:12.775 --> 00:19:15.855
Yesterday, I did a podcast with a bunch of different pastors.
00:19:16.075 --> 00:19:20.095
I was wearing a button down shirt and some jogging shorts. And you couldn't
00:19:20.095 --> 00:19:23.475
say because you can only see from here up. I like to be comfortable.
00:19:23.695 --> 00:19:27.655
And that's probably the one area where I'll compromise that a little bit.
00:19:27.795 --> 00:19:32.755
But I feel like the church needs to see pastors, not who are spiritually immature,
00:19:33.075 --> 00:19:37.775
Not who are sinning and swearing and having affairs and, you know,
00:19:37.895 --> 00:19:42.515
alcoholics or sin is raging out of control in their life, but people who are
00:19:42.515 --> 00:19:45.435
need Jesus and have weaknesses.
00:19:46.315 --> 00:19:52.175
So in the course of your counseling with pastors, especially ones who are struggling,
00:19:52.715 --> 00:19:58.175
worn out, discouraged or whatever, what have you learned about burnout and what
00:19:58.175 --> 00:20:05.395
have you learned about maybe some of the keys of resilience and overcoming in some of your sessions?
00:20:05.635 --> 00:20:10.935
First of all, you don't call it counseling. That's the first thing.
00:20:11.055 --> 00:20:12.815
If you say counseling, pastor's not going to come.
00:20:13.075 --> 00:20:16.075
We're going to talk about that in a little bit. because I agree with you.
00:20:16.655 --> 00:20:18.575
Pastors are resistant to counseling.
00:20:18.875 --> 00:20:20.615
Yeah, and what we do is really not,
00:20:21.196 --> 00:20:25.756
counseling proper. We call it consultations or even coaching.
00:20:26.036 --> 00:20:30.016
So burnout, the kind of genesis of it was when the psychologist,
00:20:30.236 --> 00:20:34.936
and I can't remember his name, founded it, but the general idea is a state of
00:20:34.936 --> 00:20:38.716
emotional exhaustion that's tied to workplace.
00:20:39.096 --> 00:20:42.796
And it was first in like helping professions and, you know, nurses,
00:20:43.696 --> 00:20:45.976
psychologists who were getting burnout.
00:20:46.316 --> 00:20:49.536
It's since expanded to other things, but it's, and some people when they hear
00:20:49.536 --> 00:20:51.676
burnout, they just think, oh, you work too many hours.
00:20:52.076 --> 00:20:55.236
Yeah. But that's, that's not necessarily it. If somebody said,
00:20:55.316 --> 00:20:58.796
hey, we want you to watch Alabama football for a living.
00:20:59.096 --> 00:21:02.816
No, every Saturday, you got to be there, man. You got to watch pregame.
00:21:03.216 --> 00:21:05.916
You got to keep up with scouting in the summertime. You know,
00:21:06.056 --> 00:21:08.676
I don't know that you did, you'd get burnt out on that.
00:21:08.936 --> 00:21:13.136
No, it's not about the job. Sometimes it's about who you're doing it with.
00:21:14.496 --> 00:21:20.256
And so the emotional part is the part that, that people kind of overlook and
00:21:20.256 --> 00:21:22.196
they just think it's, well, I work too many hours.
00:21:22.876 --> 00:21:30.056
People who love what they do work crazy hours and don't get burnt out. So it's not hours.
00:21:30.336 --> 00:21:33.576
You see the NBA players, they play basketball during the season.
00:21:33.716 --> 00:21:37.136
And then in the off season, you know what they do? They play pickup games.
00:21:37.236 --> 00:21:38.276
They play more basketball.
00:21:39.136 --> 00:21:43.716
They don't get burnt out on it because they love it. And so the emotional part
00:21:43.716 --> 00:21:48.176
is what is overlooked a lot of times. And the relational part.
00:21:48.336 --> 00:21:49.716
All those are kind of tied together.
00:21:50.116 --> 00:21:54.376
Not all the pastors that we work with are coming for burnout reasons. That's some of them.
00:21:55.054 --> 00:21:57.974
Some people just kind of want to, I don't know, do something different.
00:21:58.294 --> 00:22:00.074
They just kind of feel stagnant or stuck.
00:22:00.614 --> 00:22:04.874
Sometimes people are just looking for some kind of direction,
00:22:04.874 --> 00:22:08.514
you know, that's just like, I don't know what I'm looking for, but maybe this is it.
00:22:08.674 --> 00:22:12.194
But there are a percentage of people who are just like, I am worn out and I'm
00:22:12.194 --> 00:22:15.954
about to quit if something doesn't change.
00:22:16.614 --> 00:22:20.974
And so that's a small portion of them. And there's a couple of reasons for that.
00:22:21.114 --> 00:22:26.234
One, burnout's sneaky. I don't know if you ever experienced any burnout or got close to it.
00:22:26.454 --> 00:22:29.734
You don't really know it's happening until it happens. And then you're like,
00:22:30.054 --> 00:22:33.374
it's by the time you realize that it's already, you know, bitten you.
00:22:33.554 --> 00:22:36.394
And so a lot of times pastors don't realize that's what it is.
00:22:36.514 --> 00:22:37.834
They think I'm just tired.
00:22:38.114 --> 00:22:43.274
I probably worked too long, too many hospital visits, and I just need a vacation.
00:22:43.454 --> 00:22:47.894
And then they go on a vacation and they come back and they feel a little bit better for a while.
00:22:48.034 --> 00:22:50.654
Then it's right back because vacation
00:22:50.654 --> 00:22:53.574
does not do anything with emotional enrollment. relational issues.
00:22:53.874 --> 00:22:54.894
Yeah, you're right.
00:22:56.354 --> 00:23:00.034
Those people in your congregation who you didn't get along with before you went
00:23:00.034 --> 00:23:07.394
on vacation, they are still there when you come back home, you know,
00:23:07.594 --> 00:23:10.434
and their opinion of you has not changed.
00:23:10.754 --> 00:23:15.954
So it sneaks up on people. And so the hardest part of our job is,
00:23:15.954 --> 00:23:18.574
you know, getting to people before that happens.
00:23:18.754 --> 00:23:23.574
I was talking to a pastor friend a couple of weeks ago, I was trying to recruit
00:23:23.574 --> 00:23:26.254
for our next cohort. He's like, here's my problem.
00:23:26.474 --> 00:23:30.514
By the time that I found out that somebody needs help, they've already blown
00:23:30.514 --> 00:23:33.334
up their ministry. They've already left the ministry.
00:23:33.694 --> 00:23:36.834
It's too late because you could have said something.
00:23:37.094 --> 00:23:42.814
And that isolated and that insular piece comes to play in that because who do you talk to?
00:23:43.134 --> 00:23:47.254
People who are used to being strong for other people and who are used to giving
00:23:47.254 --> 00:23:51.914
wisdom to other people often don't like to be on the other side of the
00:23:52.506 --> 00:23:59.406
of the table or the other side of the desk. And so by the time a pastor acknowledges
00:23:59.406 --> 00:24:02.826
they need help, you know, something's already set in.
00:24:02.946 --> 00:24:06.666
And then if they actually take the step to go find some help,
00:24:06.826 --> 00:24:10.586
that is, I won't say it's not as rare as it used to be, especially with,
00:24:10.686 --> 00:24:14.626
like I said, younger generation, they'll go to counseling, they'll go do something.
00:24:15.086 --> 00:24:19.326
But burnout, it's sneaky because you don't see us coming and you think that
00:24:19.326 --> 00:24:24.006
just an extended vacation or something like that will help, and it doesn't.
00:24:24.446 --> 00:24:29.686
So do you think it's pride that pastors and a lot of church leaders are very
00:24:29.686 --> 00:24:35.746
hesitant to admit they're in need or to seek counseling or to seek help?
00:24:35.866 --> 00:24:39.766
I know it could be multifactorial, but what do you think are some of the prominent
00:24:39.766 --> 00:24:46.586
factors that make it hard for pastors and high-level church leaders to seek help?
00:24:47.026 --> 00:24:53.966
Well, one, most pastors are men. And so men in general don't like to seek help.
00:24:54.166 --> 00:24:56.226
So if you just add that in, you've already.
00:24:56.466 --> 00:24:56.846
Treated to that.
00:24:57.106 --> 00:25:00.286
And I mean, I counsel mostly married couples and men.
00:25:00.506 --> 00:25:03.706
And, you know, when a man comes in for counseling, I'm like,
00:25:03.806 --> 00:25:07.206
okay, something's going on. He's not playing around.
00:25:07.726 --> 00:25:08.206
Right.
00:25:08.486 --> 00:25:13.166
So that's one aspect of it. There can be a pride element to it.
00:25:13.166 --> 00:25:18.066
But another element that's close to pride, that's kind of pride adjacent,
00:25:18.466 --> 00:25:22.786
going back to the playing things close to the vest, is a lot of these old pastors
00:25:22.786 --> 00:25:26.086
are trained in reputation management.
00:25:26.926 --> 00:25:31.506
Not necessarily character, but reputation. And so two different things.
00:25:32.006 --> 00:25:37.626
Yeah, I need to look a certain way. And if this got out that I was needing help,
00:25:37.986 --> 00:25:39.346
how will my people look at me?
00:25:39.506 --> 00:25:43.246
How would, you know, my reputation in the community could take a hit?
00:25:43.684 --> 00:25:49.544
And so the idea of needing help is kind of, it's anathema on several levels.
00:25:49.824 --> 00:25:53.324
One, just being a man, we just kind of are stubborn in that way, I guess.
00:25:53.564 --> 00:25:58.624
Then if somebody is prideful, there's that. But it's also just the reputation aspect.
00:25:58.824 --> 00:26:02.124
Like this could ruin my ministry if people found out I was going to counseling,
00:26:02.124 --> 00:26:09.424
you know, because keeping that look of, I don't know, having it all together is really important.
00:26:10.084 --> 00:26:14.004
Yeah, that's an excellent point. Right. So do you think you think burnout is
00:26:14.004 --> 00:26:18.924
the best word for this kind of thing that happens with pastors and other leaders?
00:26:19.104 --> 00:26:22.344
You know, that makes me I guess when I think of burnout, I think of something
00:26:22.344 --> 00:26:27.264
like a flame out where, like you mentioned earlier, somebody who's working all the time there.
00:26:27.484 --> 00:26:33.964
They start out just with all this gung ho enthusiasm and energy and and they
00:26:33.964 --> 00:26:38.524
they burn all the the midnight candles and eventually they just kind of break
00:26:38.524 --> 00:26:41.984
down from exhaustion. I've seen that before in pastors.
00:26:42.304 --> 00:26:46.204
I think it's pretty rare. I mean, I'm not saying pastors aren't driven people.
00:26:46.524 --> 00:26:50.244
That personality type is pretty rare. But what I see more often,
00:26:50.564 --> 00:26:57.024
I guess, the last few years is pastors and church leaders that are being slowly
00:26:57.024 --> 00:26:59.624
kind of crushed and constricted to death.
00:26:59.664 --> 00:27:03.644
It could be toxic things in the church or conflict.
00:27:03.644 --> 00:27:08.244
It could be some sort of personal sin or whatever. but it's almost like you're
00:27:08.244 --> 00:27:15.404
a squirrel or a rat and some sort of constricting snake has got a hold of you and it's just slowly,
00:27:15.404 --> 00:27:20.844
slowly squeezing the air out of you and the life out of you and the will to lead.
00:27:21.004 --> 00:27:24.904
And as you say, we pastors, we're not really fast to.
00:27:25.257 --> 00:27:28.017
Recognize, hey, we're getting crushed here.
00:27:28.137 --> 00:27:32.577
And by the time some people reach out, it's almost too late.
00:27:32.637 --> 00:27:37.037
And I don't know if there's a better word for that, but sometimes burnout can
00:27:37.037 --> 00:27:38.517
be like a really fast thing.
00:27:38.597 --> 00:27:44.077
And sometimes it can be a really slow kind of grind, like the frog in the boiling
00:27:44.077 --> 00:27:46.437
water. You don't know you're being burned up.
00:27:46.817 --> 00:27:52.717
Yeah. And you bring up the appropriate word, to this idea of being choked and restricted.
00:27:52.977 --> 00:27:56.397
A term that we use in our work a lot is anxiety.
00:27:56.577 --> 00:28:00.597
And when we use that, we're not talking about a mood disorder or any kind of emotional.
00:28:00.717 --> 00:28:05.197
We're talking about emotional reactivity, just that normal everyday fight,
00:28:05.317 --> 00:28:09.737
flight, or freeze response that all God's creatures have.
00:28:10.297 --> 00:28:15.377
The word anxiety, one of the roots, it's got several roots, but one of the roots
00:28:15.377 --> 00:28:17.777
means to choke or to restrict.
00:28:18.097 --> 00:28:18.957
I did not know that.
00:28:18.957 --> 00:28:20.697
It's like arc
00:28:21.233 --> 00:28:26.713
It's like a Proto-European word. And there's other variations of the different,
00:28:26.853 --> 00:28:31.213
there's a Latin version that talks about being in a narrow place.
00:28:31.513 --> 00:28:37.613
This idea, you see it in Psalm 118, the psalmist is talking about being in distress.
00:28:38.153 --> 00:28:42.473
And distress is a word that means like a narrow, you're in this narrow place,
00:28:42.613 --> 00:28:45.473
but God has put you in a wide open place.
00:28:45.633 --> 00:28:49.353
And so that restriction has been lifted. it.
00:28:49.773 --> 00:28:53.833
There is that idea of being squeezed, slowly squeezed.
00:28:54.133 --> 00:28:57.853
And we get the word anaconda from this same root and angina,
00:28:58.053 --> 00:29:02.073
which is like your heart issue, angst, all those come from that same root.
00:29:02.253 --> 00:29:06.273
And so it is a slow process that you don't realize it until it's too late.
00:29:06.273 --> 00:29:08.633
And then you're like, why am I so miserable?
00:29:08.933 --> 00:29:13.253
We did a workshop on burnout for a church a couple of months ago.
00:29:13.253 --> 00:29:17.353
And I gave an example of when I was working at a place and I didn't realize
00:29:17.353 --> 00:29:23.373
that anything was wrong until I started throwing up in the parking lot.
00:29:23.813 --> 00:29:28.053
And then I started to notice that I was fine when I woke up that morning,
00:29:28.153 --> 00:29:33.573
but the closer I got to work, you know, just on that drive, the sicker I felt.
00:29:33.933 --> 00:29:37.653
And that's, you know, I was like, okay, something's up. This is not, you know.
00:29:37.853 --> 00:29:41.693
And so there is a sneaky element to it that you don't realize it's happening
00:29:41.693 --> 00:29:43.353
when you think of something else.
00:29:43.553 --> 00:29:48.393
And as men tend to do, you have a health issue, You may be more responsible
00:29:48.393 --> 00:29:50.453
than myself or other men. Probably not.
00:29:50.913 --> 00:29:55.093
Something's going on in your body and you're just, oh, that's weird.
00:29:55.193 --> 00:29:56.033
I hadn't been there before.
00:29:56.693 --> 00:30:00.173
It'll go away on its own. Going to get it checked out, it's like,
00:30:00.333 --> 00:30:02.993
it'll go away. But it doesn't go away, and that's the thing.
00:30:03.053 --> 00:30:04.373
You just keep getting squeezed.
00:30:05.263 --> 00:30:10.703
Well, you know, you kind of wondered earlier if I've ever experienced burnout.
00:30:11.083 --> 00:30:18.803
So let's talk a little bit about, given that it's sneaky and that most pastors
00:30:18.803 --> 00:30:22.303
don't say anything until they're kind of deep in it, let's talk a little bit
00:30:22.303 --> 00:30:24.003
about early signs of trouble.
00:30:24.143 --> 00:30:27.943
Because I would say, I've been in ministry for over 30 years.
00:30:28.043 --> 00:30:34.423
I've had troubles and frustrations and difficult things. and David and I often
00:30:34.423 --> 00:30:38.303
talk about we should write a book about all the adventures we've had pastoring.
00:30:38.463 --> 00:30:45.643
But to my knowledge, I've never gone through a season where I was burnt out or close to burnt out.
00:30:45.823 --> 00:30:49.223
I love preaching. I love getting into the Bible.
00:30:49.463 --> 00:30:56.403
I've never, I hate being bored. I have ADHD and being bored is one of my greatest fears.
00:30:56.763 --> 00:31:00.423
And ministry is pretty much different every day. I kind of like that.
00:31:00.423 --> 00:31:03.743
Most people maybe don't like that. I do like that.
00:31:03.883 --> 00:31:08.343
And I've never found, or at least since I hit a point in college,
00:31:08.483 --> 00:31:10.123
I've never really found the Bible boring.
00:31:10.323 --> 00:31:14.803
But I do wrestle with anxieties and stresses and things like that.
00:31:14.903 --> 00:31:20.823
I do go through dark periods of kind of a funk or darkness or what might even
00:31:20.823 --> 00:31:22.983
be a wave of depression or something.
00:31:23.223 --> 00:31:29.363
So I don't think I've been close to burnout. out, but I recognize listening to you.
00:31:29.503 --> 00:31:30.683
Maybe I have.
00:31:30.823 --> 00:31:37.683
So give us some early signs of trouble, some indications that the constrictor
00:31:37.683 --> 00:31:40.763
is tightening its noose around you.
00:31:40.763 --> 00:31:45.983
And so that maybe some of us guys who are stubborn and don't want to go to get
00:31:45.983 --> 00:31:52.383
help, maybe we see some of the early signs and get help before we're totally crushed and wasted.
00:31:52.894 --> 00:31:57.034
Yeah. And here's the trick of this, or what makes this tricky,
00:31:57.234 --> 00:31:59.594
is that burnout is not an official diagnosis.
00:32:00.054 --> 00:32:02.614
I think a couple of years ago, the World Health Organization,
00:32:02.854 --> 00:32:07.314
if you believe in the legitimacy of that organization, they added a code for
00:32:07.314 --> 00:32:09.614
it. But it's not an official diagnosis.
00:32:09.954 --> 00:32:11.094
It's not in the DSM?
00:32:11.094 --> 00:32:16.654
No, no, it's not. And a lot of its symptoms overlap with depression.
00:32:16.894 --> 00:32:25.574
So, for instance, isolating yourself from certain people being more irritable than you, you know,
00:32:25.814 --> 00:32:32.174
just on edge all the time, not finding joy in things you normally found joy in.
00:32:32.174 --> 00:32:36.894
And so it's very difficult to really separate it because it has so much overlap
00:32:36.894 --> 00:32:41.094
with depression. But what sets it apart is it's connected to the workplace.
00:32:41.414 --> 00:32:45.074
You know, it's connected to the workplace. And that's what makes it different
00:32:45.074 --> 00:32:46.734
than depression or something else.
00:32:46.874 --> 00:32:50.134
But a lot of those early signs of those signs of depression are,
00:32:50.254 --> 00:32:52.594
you know, they run concurrent with burnout.
00:32:53.254 --> 00:32:57.894
And like in my particular scenario, when I was one of my old jobs,
00:32:58.174 --> 00:33:02.694
I would be in my office and close the door. where I used to be more sociable
00:33:02.694 --> 00:33:05.134
and I love this place. I used to go to work on my off day.
00:33:05.254 --> 00:33:07.394
I wouldn't do anything like, aren't you off today? It's like,
00:33:07.474 --> 00:33:09.474
yeah, but I was in the area. I just stopped by to say hello.
00:33:09.774 --> 00:33:14.874
But then this came where I was, I was taking all the days off or I'd be there,
00:33:14.994 --> 00:33:16.414
but I'd just be kind of a zombie,
00:33:16.934 --> 00:33:20.434
a job where I worked a whole bunch of hours and didn't care and now I'm just
00:33:20.434 --> 00:33:25.814
like, I'm working the allotted time and then I'm getting out of there.
00:33:26.034 --> 00:33:29.914
And so just a shift in how you look toward the work, because the symptoms show
00:33:29.914 --> 00:33:33.114
up at the job more than anything, at least it did for me.
00:33:33.234 --> 00:33:37.614
But it's very hard to nail down what's burnout. But that emotional exhaustion,
00:33:38.275 --> 00:33:41.875
I started coming home and taking naps on lunch break instead of eating lunch.
00:33:42.235 --> 00:33:46.315
Wow. Wow. I was just like, I don't even want lunch. I'm exhausted. Take a nap.
00:33:46.795 --> 00:33:51.895
So those are some danger signs that it's time to get somebody else involved
00:33:51.895 --> 00:33:54.915
in your life if you're experiencing some of that.
00:33:55.315 --> 00:34:00.315
Yeah. Yeah. Before it gets, I don't say too late, but before it gets worse. Yeah.
00:34:00.775 --> 00:34:04.615
Because the longer you, if you are in a state of burnout, the longer you wait,
00:34:04.755 --> 00:34:08.355
the longer where it takes you to get back to some sense of normalcy.
00:34:08.595 --> 00:34:10.355
It's a long process.
00:34:10.755 --> 00:34:14.235
And so you catch it on the front end, like most things, if you catch it early,
00:34:14.959 --> 00:34:18.539
the prognosis is a lot better than if you catch it late. Yeah, there's a
00:34:18.539 --> 00:34:25.099
Lot of wisdom in that health-wise, mechanic-wise, and pastoral leadership-wise.
00:34:25.259 --> 00:34:30.359
So let's look at some statistics. And I'm going to read out a flood of statistics,
00:34:30.639 --> 00:34:36.159
Emmanuel, and then ask you if they line up with what you guys are seeing in your practice.
00:34:36.679 --> 00:34:41.739
57% of pastors right now say the role is frequently overwhelming.
00:34:42.299 --> 00:34:50.039
47% say they feel the demands they often, so almost half of pastors often feel
00:34:50.039 --> 00:34:53.019
the demands of ministry are greater than they can handle.
00:34:53.379 --> 00:34:58.279
Slightly more than two-thirds feel like they must be on call 24 hours a day.
00:34:58.739 --> 00:35:03.439
Two-thirds say they report feelings of loneliness and isolation.
00:35:03.779 --> 00:35:10.079
Almost 20% say they have those feelings very frequently. over half of clergy,
00:35:10.259 --> 00:35:14.759
like we said earlier, considered leaving pastoral ministry in the last few years since 2020.
00:35:15.199 --> 00:35:24.559
In 2015, so just 11 years ago, 72% of pastors reported feeling very satisfied with their jobs.
00:35:24.759 --> 00:35:31.679
But just seven years later in 2022, that number was right at about 52%. So 20% less.
00:35:31.799 --> 00:35:34.999
Of course, some of that had to do with the pandemic, but maybe not all of it.
00:35:34.999 --> 00:35:40.459
65% of pastors do not utilize, as you kind of hinted at earlier,
00:35:40.959 --> 00:35:44.759
a professional counselor, a therapist, or spiritual help.
00:35:45.139 --> 00:35:51.459
And the percentage of pastors who receive any kind of personal support from
00:35:51.459 --> 00:35:58.859
a team or a network of other pastors was 37% in 2015, which is still pretty low,
00:35:58.939 --> 00:36:04.859
but it had dropped to 22% just seven years later. so.
00:36:05.363 --> 00:36:11.223
Those are some pretty rough statistics that paint a picture of people going
00:36:11.223 --> 00:36:15.863
through a tough job, feeling lonely and overwhelmed in the middle of it.
00:36:15.963 --> 00:36:19.183
Is that anecdotally the kind of thing you're seeing?
00:36:19.443 --> 00:36:25.843
Does your experience bear out with those numbers from Barna and Lifeway and
00:36:25.843 --> 00:36:28.043
Duke University and Baylor University?
00:36:28.363 --> 00:36:30.903
Yeah, I think I definitely think they're accurate because, I mean,
00:36:31.083 --> 00:36:35.223
one, just the pastors that I've talked to, not even pastors who I've worked with.
00:36:35.363 --> 00:36:38.663
With ACPR, but just factors I just know and talk to.
00:36:38.823 --> 00:36:41.783
And they were like, oh yeah, you know, this, if I hadn't got counseling,
00:36:41.783 --> 00:36:45.623
I would have, you know, I would have been, you know, I would have dropped out of the ministry.
00:36:45.723 --> 00:36:48.583
I would have been done for. I've heard that a lot.
00:36:48.743 --> 00:36:51.663
Ministry almost ate me alive. I had to get help if I didn't get help.
00:36:51.963 --> 00:36:55.423
But that's a lot of the younger guys. The older guys are more reluctant,
00:36:55.423 --> 00:36:57.523
but those numbers sound right.
00:36:57.583 --> 00:37:02.823
And it obviously it picked up in 2020 because we're just in a more anxious world.
00:37:03.003 --> 00:37:07.063
And that affects people and then pastors are people as well,
00:37:07.163 --> 00:37:12.083
but it affects congregations and families and pastors are taking on a lot of that anxiety.00:37:12.223 --> 00:37:14.883
It's just part of the reason why we started this thing, because we were getting,00:37:15.123 --> 00:37:17.383
I remember talking to pastors who I didn't even know.00:37:17.543 --> 00:37:19.943
It's like, hey, this other pastor gave me your number.00:37:20.183 --> 00:37:25.383
My church is divided on mask or no mask. and churches were just dividing over00:37:25.383 --> 00:37:28.803
all these things, you know, lockdowns was a big one.00:37:29.163 --> 00:37:31.123
Should we close the church or should we leave it open?00:37:31.583 --> 00:37:35.663
Yeah. When were you in 2020? Were you in California? You were already in California. I was, yeah. Yeah.00:37:36.083 --> 00:37:39.703
Yeah. And so, so I don't know what your, what your experience was,00:37:39.863 --> 00:37:43.643
but it was depending on what church you were at here, it was some,00:37:43.823 --> 00:37:47.063
a lot of tension about what you should do and what you shouldn't do.00:37:47.343 --> 00:37:49.983
And there was a lot of that in California as well. Obviously,00:37:49.983 --> 00:37:54.603
I think we were much more cautious out here, but I have some pastoral friends00:37:54.603 --> 00:37:57.443
in the city, I think some of whom ultimately...00:37:58.450 --> 00:38:04.550
Lost their job over disagreements in the church over how to manage COVID.00:38:04.750 --> 00:38:12.950
I was very fortunate, graced by the fact that all our leaders were pretty much on the same page.00:38:13.090 --> 00:38:15.730
We continued to meet. We met outside.00:38:15.930 --> 00:38:21.330
I had the assistant police chief call me early on, and I hardly knew the guy,00:38:21.470 --> 00:38:24.210
but he called me and said, hey, listen, I just want to let you know,00:38:24.490 --> 00:38:28.950
pastor, that our police force is got.00:38:28.950 --> 00:38:30.170
A lot more00:38:30.170 --> 00:38:34.530
Important things to do than to go around and see if churches are meeting.00:38:35.030 --> 00:38:40.010
So you do with that information what you will. And I really appreciated that.00:38:40.150 --> 00:38:46.790
But honestly, we went through a season where we met outside most of the time and it was fine.00:38:47.130 --> 00:38:49.010
And then when they said you could go back in.00:38:49.190 --> 00:38:50.350
That was fine too.00:38:50.570 --> 00:38:54.170
We were cautious. I don't know if we were too cautious or what,00:38:54.290 --> 00:39:00.630
but there were other churches is that any mention of masks or whatever was civil war.00:39:01.070 --> 00:39:04.130
Yeah. Well, the state shouldn't be telling the church what they should do.00:39:04.290 --> 00:39:06.330
I generally agree with that.00:39:06.450 --> 00:39:11.330
Yeah. Yeah. But practically, you know, and I don't know if there's a right or00:39:11.330 --> 00:39:14.630
a wrong answer for that, but a lot of churches were divided over that.00:39:14.770 --> 00:39:17.910
And another thing was, you know, a lot of people just stopped going to church00:39:17.910 --> 00:39:22.750
in general during the pandemic. And that's not even talking about the racial00:39:22.750 --> 00:39:26.270
stuff in 2020 that divided a lot of churches.00:39:26.690 --> 00:39:29.670
Yeah. Why aren't you addressing this? Why aren't you talking about it?00:39:29.750 --> 00:39:30.810
Or why did you address it?00:39:30.910 --> 00:39:35.670
Why did you talk about it? And so a lot of that burnout spike in 2020,00:39:36.290 --> 00:39:38.530
we haven't recovered from that.00:39:39.350 --> 00:39:43.790
There's still, just heard recently, there's still people who are upset about00:39:43.790 --> 00:39:48.330
certain things or who are sensitive to certain issues that they want their pastor00:39:48.330 --> 00:39:51.290
to speak to or not to speak to? Are they mad that he spoke to it?00:39:51.530 --> 00:39:57.550
And so depending on, I remember talking to a pastor, this might have been 2021, and his00:39:58.036 --> 00:40:01.216
He said that, I thought my people were more mature than that.00:40:01.356 --> 00:40:04.556
And so he thought he had a mature congregation and that, you know,00:40:04.916 --> 00:40:08.496
going through the pandemic would be just, we'll do these precautions.00:40:08.496 --> 00:40:11.956
They're not a big deal, but we'll do it because, you know, we love our neighbor.00:40:12.316 --> 00:40:16.096
And he was surprised at the reaction he got. But he said, I thought they were00:40:16.096 --> 00:40:18.636
more mature than that. It's like, hey, you know me. You know who I am.00:40:18.856 --> 00:40:22.596
Well, to be fair to them, sometimes I think I'm more mature than I actually00:40:22.596 --> 00:40:25.236
turn out to be. So I can relate to those people.00:40:25.236 --> 00:40:27.136
Well, if you turn the heat up enough,00:40:27.396 --> 00:40:31.256
everybody has a point to where that maturity goes out of the brunt.00:40:31.536 --> 00:40:35.796
Yeah. It just goes down the drain and our brain goes to survival mode.00:40:36.056 --> 00:40:40.296
And, you know, we just act like a three-year-old. Everybody has that point.00:40:40.476 --> 00:40:42.836
Some people's point is a little earlier than others.00:40:43.096 --> 00:40:47.656
Yeah. And so I don't know that pastors were ready for that because they thought00:40:47.656 --> 00:40:50.516
that these are spiritually mature, you know.00:40:50.716 --> 00:40:53.816
I don't think any of us was ready for it. And really ever since then,00:40:54.165 --> 00:40:58.565
it's not just been COVID, it's been politics, it's been war,00:40:58.745 --> 00:41:02.605
it's been all this kind of stuff. And the church has been kind of in a almost00:41:02.605 --> 00:41:05.905
steady state of upheaval for the last six years in the West.00:41:06.105 --> 00:41:11.725
And I've talked to people who left their church because the pastor did not mention00:41:11.725 --> 00:41:17.065
X on Sunday morning, you know, so-and-so was killed or this incident happened00:41:17.065 --> 00:41:19.305
and my pastor didn't talk about it.00:41:19.465 --> 00:41:23.205
I'm out, you know, or my pastor did talk about it. I'm out. I've heard that00:41:23.205 --> 00:41:25.205
less, But that's definitely happened.00:41:25.625 --> 00:41:31.145
OK, so next week we will have part two of that fantastic interview with Manuel00:41:31.145 --> 00:41:33.305
Marsh, who just did a great job.00:41:33.665 --> 00:41:37.445
And honestly, the second part of the interview, I think, is even better than00:41:37.445 --> 00:41:41.325
the first part. I took more notes and quotes from the second part of the interview.00:41:41.465 --> 00:41:44.905
So you got that to look forward to. We're going to close out today with top00:41:44.905 --> 00:41:50.385
five apologetics books to prepare you for Resurrection Day Easter,00:41:50.585 --> 00:41:54.145
which is coming up, and two bonus resources.00:41:54.445 --> 00:41:58.565
So let's start out with, if you were to ask me, and I own all of these books,00:41:58.645 --> 00:42:01.105
I have a lot of books on apologetics and on the resurrection.00:42:01.265 --> 00:42:03.345
It's my favorite thing to teach about.00:42:03.605 --> 00:42:07.005
And I don't know if I would say I collect these books, but I've got 30,00:42:07.265 --> 00:42:12.125
50, a bunch of books on the resurrection of Jesus. I'm going to give you my top five.00:42:12.285 --> 00:42:15.025
Some of these are not going to be surprising at all. You'll have heard of them.00:42:15.025 --> 00:42:19.445
And we've even talked about them on the show before. Number one is just a no-brainer.00:42:19.645 --> 00:42:24.705
It's Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. I read that book in college.00:42:24.705 --> 00:42:28.645
In fact, I listened to it on tape first before I read it.00:42:28.765 --> 00:42:32.725
It was originally delivered as a series of radio broadcasts during the Second00:42:32.725 --> 00:42:39.125
World War, and it gives a great rational defense, not only of the resurrection,00:42:39.385 --> 00:42:41.385
but of Christianity in general.00:42:41.385 --> 00:42:45.225
And if you know Lewis, you know he's just a phenomenal writer.00:42:45.605 --> 00:42:52.985
His ability is to take high-level, extremely intelligent thoughts and make them.00:42:53.283 --> 00:42:57.463
Understandable and accessible by normal people like you and me.00:42:57.663 --> 00:43:02.023
Lots of people alive today and lots of even scholars from the past kind of credit00:43:02.023 --> 00:43:08.403
this work of mere Christianity as the catalyst for their own spiritual growth and awakening.00:43:08.683 --> 00:43:13.523
C.S. Lewis was a British literary scholar. He didn't start out as a Christian.00:43:13.763 --> 00:43:18.763
And in fact, it was under the witness and challenge of J.R.R.00:43:18.763 --> 00:43:23.523
Tolkien of Lord of the Rings and Hobbit fame, where Lewis came to faith and00:43:23.523 --> 00:43:29.743
he just excels at explaining the faith in a way that is on the one hand profound,00:43:29.743 --> 00:43:32.183
on the other hand, very practical.00:43:32.723 --> 00:43:36.403
Okay, number two, and this is kind of like the modern day mere Christianity.00:43:36.403 --> 00:43:38.723
I respect Tim Keller a ton.00:43:38.843 --> 00:43:46.163
He just died a couple of years ago. in my mind, Keller was maybe the best communicator00:43:46.163 --> 00:43:48.803
of the gospel in my lifetime.00:43:49.003 --> 00:43:51.803
Maybe you don't agree with every stance he took theologically,00:43:52.083 --> 00:43:56.763
but his book, The Reason for God, Belief in an Age of Skepticism,00:43:57.083 --> 00:44:03.263
has had a massive impact in America, in the West, particularly among people00:44:03.263 --> 00:44:08.243
that normally reject Christianity, urban professionals, secular readers,00:44:08.563 --> 00:44:11.443
highly college educated kind of people.00:44:11.643 --> 00:44:17.923
Keller did a great job with this book and made it sort of a bridge for people00:44:17.923 --> 00:44:24.643
who feel alienated by traditional pastoral biblical rhetoric,00:44:24.643 --> 00:44:29.603
but are open to reasonable explanations for faith.00:44:29.763 --> 00:44:36.403
He explains so many deep truths of Christianity in such a refreshing Sheen.00:44:36.701 --> 00:44:40.681
Deep way in this book. If you haven't read it before, go out and get it now.00:44:41.001 --> 00:44:45.001
Number three, you can pick any one of these. They're all good.00:44:45.301 --> 00:44:50.621
Lee Strobel's book, this is The Case for the Real Jesus. The Case for Christ is also good.00:44:50.821 --> 00:44:55.081
The Case for Easter, those are all good. Lee Strobel was a journalist.00:44:55.081 --> 00:44:56.961
You might have heard his story before.00:44:57.281 --> 00:45:04.161
And he goes and interviews scholars about Jesus and about the resurrection and00:45:04.161 --> 00:45:07.701
the way Strobel approaches these scholars.00:45:07.861 --> 00:45:11.601
Now, he goes after heavy hitters. These are guys that are really intelligent.00:45:11.841 --> 00:45:17.081
They got the academic chops, but Strobel handles it not like an academic discussion,00:45:17.301 --> 00:45:23.301
but like a newspaper interview, which makes it understandable and easy to grasp.00:45:23.601 --> 00:45:27.181
And on the one hand, understandable, easy grasp. On the other hand,00:45:27.421 --> 00:45:31.201
not lightweight, compelling even to skeptics.00:45:31.241 --> 00:45:35.521
It's a very approachable book that punches above its weight.00:45:35.641 --> 00:45:39.621
But number four is not as approachable of a book.00:45:39.761 --> 00:45:43.921
And I don't agree with British scholar N.T. Wright on every little thing,00:45:44.041 --> 00:45:47.761
but his book, The Resurrection of the Son of God, is the longest book I own00:45:47.761 --> 00:45:52.101
on the resurrection and almost certainly the weightiest and most academic.00:45:52.421 --> 00:45:56.541
Wright is one of the most prominent New Testament scholars of our age.00:45:56.841 --> 00:46:00.441
And this book on the resurrection of the Son of the God, it's hundreds of pages00:46:00.441 --> 00:46:05.161
long, very, very thick, not the easiest book to read, probably the hardest book00:46:05.161 --> 00:46:06.321
we're going to talk about today.00:46:06.461 --> 00:46:12.381
But if you want depth and range and really serious, comprehensive discussion00:46:12.381 --> 00:46:15.941
of the arguments for the resurrection of Jesus and the.00:46:16.248 --> 00:46:19.108
Criticisms for the belief in the resurrection of Jesus.00:46:19.128 --> 00:46:23.768
This is a comprehensive book that pretty much covers everything.00:46:24.008 --> 00:46:28.108
So if you're serious about any sort of study of the resurrection,00:46:28.108 --> 00:46:30.828
then you probably already own this book.00:46:30.948 --> 00:46:34.988
But if you don't, go out and get it right now and spend some time reading it.00:46:35.168 --> 00:46:40.968
It's deep, it's academic, but it's a necessity for anybody who really cares about this.00:46:41.088 --> 00:46:45.068
And then that gets us to number five, which is kind of somewhere between N.T.00:46:45.188 --> 00:46:48.728
Wright's work and Lee Strobel's work. And it's a book called The Case for the00:46:48.728 --> 00:46:50.528
Resurrection of Jesus by Dr.00:46:50.688 --> 00:46:53.028
Gary Habermas and Dr. Mike Lucona.00:46:53.348 --> 00:46:58.968
So Gary Habermas was my apologetic professor in seminary and one of my very00:46:58.968 --> 00:47:01.088
favorite professors of all time.00:47:01.248 --> 00:47:05.548
He is an amazingly gifted teacher and communicator. And at the same time,00:47:05.708 --> 00:47:10.308
he's somebody who is vulnerable and as genuine as they come.00:47:10.588 --> 00:47:13.088
He's also a good hockey coach. I never played hockey for him,00:47:13.188 --> 00:47:16.128
but this is the kind of guy I would want as my coach.00:47:16.268 --> 00:47:19.648
I wouldn't call Mike Lacona a best friend or anything like that,00:47:19.768 --> 00:47:21.848
although I would be honored to do so if it was true.00:47:22.008 --> 00:47:24.888
But I have recorded a few podcast episodes with Dr.00:47:25.148 --> 00:47:28.188
Lacona, and he came and spoke at our church, Valley Baptist,00:47:28.488 --> 00:47:31.528
for a weekend on the resurrection a couple of years ago.00:47:31.708 --> 00:47:34.748
And I got to tell you, in person, he was just a fantastic guy.00:47:34.928 --> 00:47:38.888
Whip smart, but also kind, patient, approachable, friendly.00:47:39.339 --> 00:47:43.999
And he spent tons of time at our church talking to the teenagers that came to00:47:43.999 --> 00:47:47.899
hear him speak about the resurrection. We went out to eat with him.00:47:48.019 --> 00:47:52.979
We hung out with him. And there was no big time kind of super smart scholar00:47:52.979 --> 00:47:55.739
and European kind of deal. This was a great guy.00:47:55.979 --> 00:48:00.099
There's a couple of things that Mike writes about that I don't necessarily agree with.00:48:00.219 --> 00:48:04.259
He says parts of the book of Matthew are legendary, just a couple of small parts00:48:04.259 --> 00:48:08.519
are legend adjacent. But you couldn't ask for a more down-to-earth,00:48:08.619 --> 00:48:14.839
smart and knowledgeable speaker who makes a fantastic case for the resurrection of Jesus.00:48:15.059 --> 00:48:21.159
And in this book, Habermas and Lacona utilizes the minimal facts approach that Dr.00:48:21.279 --> 00:48:24.299
Habermas kind of popularizes to defend the resurrection.00:48:24.879 --> 00:48:30.859
This will give you a real ability to interact with secular scholars,00:48:31.159 --> 00:48:32.639
professors, and really, really00:48:32.639 --> 00:48:37.719
smart people and make a compelling case for the resurrection of Jesus.00:48:37.999 --> 00:48:43.339
And not only that, it's not just an academic book. It uniquely addresses the issue of doubt.00:48:43.599 --> 00:48:48.759
I'll say that's really an important part of the book because when I had Dr.00:48:48.919 --> 00:48:53.359
Habermas as a professor, it was not much removed from, it was a few years after00:48:53.359 --> 00:48:55.579
his wife died from cancer.00:48:55.899 --> 00:48:59.699
And it was, I don't know how to say this in the right way, but the way he told00:48:59.699 --> 00:49:02.999
us about it, it was very vulnerable, very gut-wrenching.00:49:03.319 --> 00:49:08.299
And her death was not easy, and it was drawn out, and it was hard.00:49:08.359 --> 00:49:14.199
And here is a man who is one of the greatest apologists for Christianity in00:49:14.199 --> 00:49:18.299
our day, maybe the world's foremost expert on the resurrection, E.R. N.T.00:49:18.439 --> 00:49:24.239
Wright, and he loses his wife to a terrible cancer. And he just talked about00:49:24.239 --> 00:49:30.699
that in the most deep, real, gut-wrenching, but encouraging way. So when Dr.00:49:30.839 --> 00:49:35.659
Habermas talks about doubt, this is not a man who's never experienced it.00:49:35.779 --> 00:49:39.019
This is a man who has faced doubt eye to eye.00:49:39.384 --> 00:49:43.704
The deepest way possible. So he's no shallow faith cheerleader,00:49:43.924 --> 00:49:50.624
but a tried and tested man of philosophy and conviction with a faith that has been tempered in fire.00:49:50.864 --> 00:49:54.104
Give you a couple other books. It's a little self-serving, but I wrote a book00:49:54.104 --> 00:49:59.244
a few years ago, Easter Fact or Fiction by me, Dr. Chase Thompson.00:49:59.584 --> 00:50:05.364
You can buy it on Amazon. It is really not very like the other books on this00:50:05.364 --> 00:50:06.564
list. It's kind of short.00:50:06.704 --> 00:50:12.784
It's easy to read. It will give you 20 reasons to believe in the resurrection.00:50:13.004 --> 00:50:14.684
And of course, it quotes Dr.00:50:15.084 --> 00:50:18.344
Wright and Tim Keller and C.S. Lewis and00:50:18.598 --> 00:50:24.838
Dr. Lacona and Gary Habermas. But it gives you 20 reasons why I believe and00:50:24.838 --> 00:50:27.858
I'm persuaded that Jesus Christ rose from the dead.00:50:27.998 --> 00:50:33.878
You can buy it on Amazon. I think I might make like a dollar or two when somebody buys it.00:50:33.978 --> 00:50:38.098
So I'm not telling you because I want to get rich from you buying this book.00:50:38.238 --> 00:50:41.498
But I did put a lot of heart and soul in that book.00:50:41.618 --> 00:50:47.518
And I do think it is a very easy to understand defense of the resurrection.00:50:47.958 --> 00:50:50.218
And if you don't want to spend any money, you don't want to read a book,00:50:50.358 --> 00:50:56.078
but you do want to go to a website, allow me to point you to the X page or the00:50:56.078 --> 00:51:00.678
Twitter page, as we used to call it, for VBC Apologetics.00:51:00.858 --> 00:51:07.278
That's Victor Bravo Charlie Apologetics, all one word, VBC Apologetics.00:51:07.418 --> 00:51:13.158
This is a Twitter handle run by Lonnie Robison, who is a scholar and a gentleman00:51:13.158 --> 00:51:18.698
and a deacon at Valley Baptist Church, and he interacts with all sorts of skeptics online.00:51:18.698 --> 00:51:23.698
He will interact with you, and he will post things that will be challenging.00:51:23.938 --> 00:51:27.378
Interesting, corny sometimes, and lots of fun.00:51:27.498 --> 00:51:32.438
So check out VBC Apologetics, and if you want to look at any of the books on00:51:32.438 --> 00:51:36.018
this list or get the free book I mentioned earlier by Dr.00:51:36.238 --> 00:51:43.138
Andrew Loke, all you got to do is come to our website, www.everychurchflourishing.com.00:51:43.238 --> 00:51:47.018
And that's it for today's episode. Thank you so much for listening.00:51:47.258 --> 00:51:51.438
We will see you next week. Please do, if you get a chance, leave us a review00:51:51.438 --> 00:51:54.958
on Apple Podcasts and good day to you and Godspeed.
