WEBVTT
00:00:00.017 --> 00:00:05.223
I was raised to value working hard, but when you're a pastor or a church leader
00:00:05.461 --> 00:00:09.527
and the goal is learning to abide in Christ, today's guest, Dr.
00:00:09.527 --> 00:00:12.357
C.J. Wan, says there is a danger in...
00:00:12.777 --> 00:00:16.857
Our effort as if to say, I could replace prayer. I could replace depending on
00:00:16.857 --> 00:00:21.373
God by doing a lot of good work for Him. And it's a trap.
00:00:21.541 --> 00:00:26.603
It's a trap that many, many pastors, including myself, have experienced burnout. Why?
00:00:26.940 --> 00:00:29.790
Because I am doing it. I am trying.
00:00:44.402 --> 00:00:48.310
Leaders and pastors find health, encouragement, practical advice,
00:00:48.426 --> 00:00:52.339
soul care, and resources that work together to build up your local fellowship
00:00:52.466 --> 00:00:53.935
and the broader kingdom of God.
00:00:54.341 --> 00:00:58.722
Join hosts, Pastor Chris Cole and Dr. Chase Thompson from the Great Commission
00:00:58.722 --> 00:01:03.142
Association, led by Dr. Mike Stewart, as they explore the frontiers of ministry
00:01:03.462 --> 00:01:05.957
and aim for the goal of making every church flourish.
00:01:07.013 --> 00:01:13.166
Hello, everybody, and welcome in to episode number 24 of the Every Church Flourishing Podcast.
00:01:13.503 --> 00:01:18.727
We are a podcast put on by the Great Commission Association of California.
00:01:19.000 --> 00:01:24.225
You can get in touch with us through our website, gcasbc.org,
00:01:24.532 --> 00:01:29.435
and our email, office at gcasbc.org.
00:01:29.702 --> 00:01:32.216
Now, why would you want to get in touch with us? It's a good question.
00:01:32.674 --> 00:01:36.502
Here's the thing. We are looking for partners in ministry.
00:01:36.502 --> 00:01:40.712
And if you're a church or you're a pastor or you're a church leader in the California
00:01:40.712 --> 00:01:48.192
area and you feel alone and you don't have a team, we could be your team.
00:01:48.192 --> 00:01:54.842
So if you are out there looking and are tired of being lonely in ministry, give us a call.
00:01:54.842 --> 00:02:04.062
Give us an email, office at gcasbc.org. Check out our website, which is gcasbc.org.
00:02:04.062 --> 00:02:08.462
So if you're a pastor, church leader, anybody serious about following Jesus,
00:02:08.462 --> 00:02:13.802
today's show will challenge you not to try harder, but to reorder the priorities
00:02:13.802 --> 00:02:16.328
of your life to spend more time with God,
00:02:16.636 --> 00:02:23.364
trust human effort less, and prioritize listening to God over telling him what he already knows.
00:02:23.677 --> 00:02:27.122
After a great discussion on prayer with Dr.
00:02:27.122 --> 00:02:31.612
CJ, who's going to give us some practical tips on helping a church develop a
00:02:31.612 --> 00:02:36.692
culture of prayer, you're going to hear a severe and serious disagreement between
00:02:36.692 --> 00:02:40.737
myself and Pastor Christopher of the GCA, the co-host of this podcast.
00:02:41.027 --> 00:02:45.021
Will we debate Calvinism versus Arminianism,
00:02:46.002 --> 00:02:51.824
Complementarianism versus egalitarianism, or is one of us a cessationist and
00:02:52.056 --> 00:02:57.983
one of us a continuationist, well, it's going to be far worse and more divisive than any of those
00:02:58.361 --> 00:03:04.102
Our disagreement concerns Wild Bill's Ring Pop Soda.
00:03:04.467 --> 00:03:08.722
Well, after that divisive soda review, we will end today's episode with a couple
00:03:08.722 --> 00:03:13.959
of powerful prayer stories as an encouragement to all of us to pray.
00:03:14.197 --> 00:03:19.892
But for right now, let's go to Dr. CJ Wan for part two of an interview where
00:03:19.892 --> 00:03:22.440
we are discussing prayer.
00:03:22.620 --> 00:03:27.352
And we are back with Dr. CJ Wan of the Great Commission Association.
00:03:27.352 --> 00:03:32.332
And we're still talking about prayer and abiding and how pastors and leaders
00:03:32.332 --> 00:03:38.372
can not only themselves cultivate a life of prayer and pursuing the Lord and
00:03:38.372 --> 00:03:40.082
surrender, but also how they can,
00:03:40.542 --> 00:03:43.952
help their churches facilitate walking in that.
00:03:43.952 --> 00:03:46.892
And let's talk a little bit about Andrew Murray.
00:03:46.892 --> 00:03:52.212
Andrew Murray was a Dutch Reformed South African pastor of the 19th century.
00:03:52.212 --> 00:03:56.912
He wrote a book that was very instrumental in my life called Abiding in Christ
00:03:56.912 --> 00:04:01.282
that I read shortly after I got into ministry.
00:04:01.282 --> 00:04:07.774
He was just a pastor who lived a life of prayer and urged others to do it.
00:04:08.111 --> 00:04:12.742
Dr. CJ, you read a different book by him, Absolute Surrender, recently.
00:04:13.162 --> 00:04:14.862
I'm not a good surrenderer.
00:04:15.302 --> 00:04:20.093
I mean, I got some strong willfulness in me.
00:04:20.220 --> 00:04:25.142
What does Murray teach us about surrender? How does surrender work in a Christian's life?
00:04:25.502 --> 00:04:29.222
I think what I got out of it as I was reading, it's really the first chapter,
00:04:29.222 --> 00:04:34.610
and there's many good devotional topics on there. But as he introduces the topic of surrender...
00:04:35.220 --> 00:04:39.677
Often I think we are trying to surrender. And if you just heard what I just
00:04:39.677 --> 00:04:42.314
said, we are trying to surrender.
00:04:42.436 --> 00:04:44.259
And I think that's where I was spinning.
00:04:44.386 --> 00:04:48.299
I'm trying, God, to surrender more. I'm trying, I'm trying, and I'm trying.
00:04:48.450 --> 00:04:53.317
And what brought the fresh air from me was that, you know, Andrew Murray happened
00:04:53.317 --> 00:04:55.927
to be saying, no, you know what? It's 100% God.
00:04:56.502 --> 00:05:01.357
God is providing means and ways for you and I to surrender. It's not up to us.
00:05:01.357 --> 00:05:04.267
It's not what we do. It's what he does.
00:05:04.567 --> 00:05:09.117
And so that was really the nutshell of how I felt, what I got out of it.
00:05:09.117 --> 00:05:14.242
And I'm changing my positions on how I see. What does that mean to surrender?
00:05:14.375 --> 00:05:17.847
So how can God help us lead a surrendered life?
00:05:17.847 --> 00:05:24.057
Yeah, it goes back for me a long way. It goes back where I think we have learned
00:05:24.057 --> 00:05:28.377
to do a lot of repetitive things trying to surrender. And that might be go to
00:05:28.377 --> 00:05:31.139
church, pray, read Bible, do all good things.
00:05:31.278 --> 00:05:36.557
And it's really us trying, but he's actually telling us a different ways.
00:05:36.557 --> 00:05:42.077
And it wasn't crazy ideas, but it was refreshing ideas. And he said this,
00:05:42.077 --> 00:05:46.777
God provides and really completely owns the surrender of our lives.
00:05:46.777 --> 00:05:50.347
He's the one that's providing everything we need. And he gives five points.
00:05:50.667 --> 00:05:54.196
And he says this, first, God expects our surrender, which is,
00:05:54.330 --> 00:05:56.071
that's where he starts in Proverbs 3.
00:05:56.205 --> 00:05:59.647
Trust in the Lord with all your heart. In all your ways, acknowledge him.
00:05:59.647 --> 00:06:03.067
And he does start there saying, hey, this is what the Lord wants from us.
00:06:03.067 --> 00:06:06.793
And that is, yes, he expects our surrender. He commands our surrender.
00:06:06.921 --> 00:06:09.487
But then he goes on to talk about the second, third, fourth.
00:06:09.487 --> 00:06:12.262
Third, second is afford. He affords our surrender.
00:06:12.366 --> 00:06:17.572
And he says, no one can come to the Father unless the Father who sent me draws him in John 6.
00:06:17.700 --> 00:06:20.649
It is him who draws us, not us trying to get there.
00:06:20.770 --> 00:06:26.128
And it is God who works in us to will and to act, according to Philippians 2.13. So it's God who...
00:06:26.459 --> 00:06:31.209
Calls and expects us, but he also affords us because he's the one doing the nudging.
00:06:31.209 --> 00:06:34.779
He's the one that's actually calling us, drawing us to himself.
00:06:34.779 --> 00:06:37.689
And then he talks about the accept. He accepts our surrender.
00:06:37.689 --> 00:06:41.299
And this is the passage I shared on the previous one in Mark chapter 9,
00:06:41.299 --> 00:06:47.499
where in a boy's father, a boy with a father who came asking Jesus, he'll heal my son.
00:06:47.899 --> 00:06:53.049
And the real answer was, I do believe, but help me overcome my unbelief.
00:06:53.049 --> 00:06:55.579
And I think that's the surrender we do. Lord, I do.
00:06:55.899 --> 00:06:59.496
I want to, but I know that there's places I still need your help.
00:06:59.635 --> 00:07:04.539
And so he understands and accepts our feeble surrender at whatever level,
00:07:04.539 --> 00:07:06.480
whatever we can, he accepts it.
00:07:06.729 --> 00:07:11.099
And he fulfills number four, our surrender. And that is Philippians chapter
00:07:11.099 --> 00:07:14.759
one, verse six, famous verse, being confident of this, that he who began a good
00:07:14.759 --> 00:07:19.214
work in you will carry it onto completion. He's the one that's going to finish this.
00:07:19.371 --> 00:07:21.589
I'm so glad he did not leave that to me.
00:07:22.399 --> 00:07:25.669
He didn't leave that to chance. And he didn't say, well, let me see if I could
00:07:25.669 --> 00:07:29.339
get somebody else to do it. He said, no, I will carry it on to completion.
00:07:29.339 --> 00:07:33.019
And so he's the one that will fulfill our surrender. And lastly,
00:07:33.019 --> 00:07:34.615
as really he says, blesses.
00:07:34.754 --> 00:07:39.249
He blesses your surrender. And how he blesses it is really a picture in Revelations
00:07:39.249 --> 00:07:42.742
3, where he says, here I am at the, I stand at the door and knock.
00:07:42.905 --> 00:07:47.919
If anyone hears my voice and opens his door, I will come in and eat with him and he with me.
00:07:48.239 --> 00:07:53.519
And the blessing is if we are able to just let him in, cooperate and open the
00:07:53.519 --> 00:07:55.867
door of our heart, he says, I will come in.
00:07:56.180 --> 00:08:01.084
And I will be with you. And so from the start to finish, Andrew Murray was kind
00:08:01.084 --> 00:08:05.924
of pointing it out that from the start to finish, complete, it's him. It's not us.
00:08:06.384 --> 00:08:10.797
I have bought the lie or the different ideas that part of it is me.
00:08:11.069 --> 00:08:16.820
I have to be the one surrendering. And I gave myself credit when I did one thing well. It didn't last.
00:08:17.344 --> 00:08:20.334
I would not do one thing, but next week I'll be doing it again.
00:08:20.334 --> 00:08:24.974
And so this cycle, I think that's where I was trapped on a treadmill,
00:08:24.974 --> 00:08:28.594
just trying and trying and trying. And this actually says, no,
00:08:28.594 --> 00:08:31.774
it's 100% God. He is in charge of it all.
00:08:32.023 --> 00:08:35.004
Yeah, that's fantastic. Good, powerful words.
00:08:35.324 --> 00:08:40.224
I want to share an anecdote from the life of Andrew Murray that also has some
00:08:40.224 --> 00:08:45.124
great quotes in it about prayer, surrender, and the danger of prayerlessness.
00:08:45.544 --> 00:08:50.082
He lived to a ripe old age. I think he died in 1917 at 88.
00:08:50.233 --> 00:08:53.884
This story happened in 1912 when he was 83.
00:08:53.884 --> 00:08:57.034
He was in South Africa, like I said, with the Dutch Reformed Church.
00:08:57.034 --> 00:09:01.494
And one of their theology professors, and obviously things are different today
00:09:01.494 --> 00:09:02.954
than they were 100 years ago.
00:09:02.954 --> 00:09:09.434
One of their theology professors wrote an article about the powerlessness and
00:09:09.434 --> 00:09:12.184
the prayerlessness in the South African church.
00:09:12.184 --> 00:09:17.784
And a lot of the pastors read the article and they were cut to the heart about
00:09:17.784 --> 00:09:18.844
it. So they got together.
00:09:19.408 --> 00:09:23.084
They were so moved by this thing. They got together. So they had four theological
00:09:23.084 --> 00:09:28.009
professors, 200 ministers, pastors, missionaries, students.
00:09:28.335 --> 00:09:30.790
They all got together and they kind of were like.
00:09:31.005 --> 00:09:31.678
What do we do?
00:09:31.783 --> 00:09:37.271
And so they began to kind of go through that and consider, you know,
00:09:37.271 --> 00:09:39.531
what do we do about the powerlessness in the church?
00:09:39.531 --> 00:09:44.171
And they had testimonies and they talked about what's the problem,
00:09:44.171 --> 00:09:46.561
you know, what kind of sins are going on?
00:09:46.561 --> 00:09:54.231
And they began to focus in on other pastors sinning, churches not presenting
00:09:54.231 --> 00:09:57.231
the right doctrine, that kind of thing.
00:09:57.231 --> 00:10:03.021
But they got to the point where they realized they were barking up the wrong tree, essentially.
00:10:03.481 --> 00:10:07.081
And this is what Andrew Murray said. I'll just read a paragraph from him.
00:10:07.081 --> 00:10:12.441
He said, the Lord led us gradually to the sin of prayerlessness as one of the
00:10:12.441 --> 00:10:14.454
deepest roots of the problem.
00:10:14.768 --> 00:10:17.701
Not one of us could claim to be free from this.
00:10:18.181 --> 00:10:25.401
Nothing so reveals a defective spiritual life in a minister or a congregation
00:10:25.401 --> 00:10:29.036
as the lack of believing in unceasing prayer.
00:10:29.164 --> 00:10:31.301
Prayer is the pulse of the spiritual
00:10:31.301 --> 00:10:36.356
life. It is the great means by which ministers and lay people alike
00:10:36.490 --> 00:10:43.151
receive the blessing and power of having persevering and believing prayer preludes
00:10:43.151 --> 00:10:46.931
a strong and abundant life. Yeah. That's powerful stuff.
00:10:46.931 --> 00:10:53.161
It is. It is. And I think because of our distractions and our attempts to do
00:10:53.701 --> 00:10:57.063
good work for the kingdom of God, all those are nice words.
00:10:57.202 --> 00:11:02.631
We miss out and we somehow commingle our effort as if to say,
00:11:02.631 --> 00:11:07.391
I could replace prayer. I could replace depending on God by doing a lot of good
00:11:07.391 --> 00:11:09.815
work for him. And it's a trap.
00:11:10.001 --> 00:11:15.057
It's a trap that many, many pastors, including myself, have experienced burnout. Why?
00:11:15.394 --> 00:11:18.351
Because I am doing it. I am trying.
00:11:18.351 --> 00:11:22.351
I am the fuel. And you know, pastoring, essentially at its core,
00:11:22.351 --> 00:11:24.101
in some ways, a leadership position.
00:11:24.444 --> 00:11:30.612
And therefore, it attracts people to that profession, ideally, that are called by God.
00:11:30.612 --> 00:11:36.682
Don't get me wrong, but it also attracts people that are not all type A personalities,
00:11:36.682 --> 00:11:41.592
but leaders who are used to leading and having to get things done.
00:11:41.900 --> 00:11:47.272
And as you say, it's a trap. It's a trap. And the high 90s percent of pastors
00:11:47.272 --> 00:11:51.612
probably fall into that trap all the time that I got to get this done.
00:11:52.512 --> 00:11:57.602
All of this rests on me. So for the pastor out there kind of feeling that,
00:11:57.602 --> 00:12:05.218
what are some ways that they can seek God's presence as the center of their life?
00:12:05.352 --> 00:12:10.899
Well, it sounds bad, but I would say stop trying. That would be the first way for you to detach.
00:12:11.038 --> 00:12:16.172
Start by stop trying. And sometimes we believe, whether it's directly,
00:12:16.172 --> 00:12:20.992
indirectly, we believe that what I do, what we do is good and it matters.
00:12:20.992 --> 00:12:24.076
And time and time again, we do a lot of things.
00:12:24.192 --> 00:12:28.522
If this year didn't work out, we'll do better next year. And if this plan doesn't
00:12:28.522 --> 00:12:32.892
work out, we'll go to plan, you know, 2.0. And we're very good at doing that
00:12:32.892 --> 00:12:35.495
as a way to solve and try to do things.
00:12:35.622 --> 00:12:38.752
But as Andrew Murray and others have kind of spilled into my life,
00:12:38.752 --> 00:12:43.422
I feel like, you know, maybe what we need to do first is just to be with God.
00:12:43.422 --> 00:12:49.522
And if we did that and hear his heartbeat and know who he is and how he wants
00:12:49.522 --> 00:12:51.502
to do and what he wants to do.
00:12:51.502 --> 00:12:55.682
May be very different than what we envision as success. And I think in order
00:12:55.682 --> 00:13:02.612
for us to reach a certain success or certain measurement that we believe is good, we do things.
00:13:02.612 --> 00:13:06.991
And I think that's the trap again. And I think for listeners and pastors,
00:13:07.131 --> 00:13:09.162
I'm not saying surrender or throw in the towel.
00:13:09.162 --> 00:13:12.952
That's not what I'm saying. I think what we need to do is spiritually come before
00:13:12.952 --> 00:13:18.276
God, broken and say, God, I'm just gonna stop trying. I just wanna spend more time with you.
00:13:18.590 --> 00:13:22.982
If I can't be a healthy person in front of you, What good am I on the pulpit?
00:13:22.982 --> 00:13:24.679
What good am I in ministry? What
00:13:25.253 --> 00:13:28.858
Plans can I execute that'll advance the kingdom of God.
00:13:29.009 --> 00:13:32.932
It's his kingdom, his work, his church, his people. And yet sometimes we believe
00:13:32.932 --> 00:13:37.872
we are given this amazing responsibility to grow the church of God.
00:13:37.872 --> 00:13:43.254
And I think that's, again, a words and word plays that we have bought into.
00:13:43.509 --> 00:13:48.142
Grow healthy, grow churches and other things. Yes, we would like to see that,
00:13:48.142 --> 00:13:50.928
but that's up to him. But will he use me to do that?
00:13:51.067 --> 00:13:54.752
That's also up to him. But we could definitely spend time with God and have
00:13:54.752 --> 00:13:57.197
him use us in ways that honors him.
00:13:57.354 --> 00:14:02.762
I think one of the things that sort of wages war against
00:14:03.082 --> 00:14:10.252
what you're talking about is we have all seen examples of churches that appear
00:14:10.252 --> 00:14:17.402
to thrive and explode in growth and have hundreds, thousands of people come to it with
00:14:17.802 --> 00:14:24.182
just pristine worship and incredible talent and people crawling all over the
00:14:24.182 --> 00:14:26.372
place and activities and actions.
00:14:26.482 --> 00:14:31.992
And it appears that I'm not speaking of every large church, obviously.
00:14:31.992 --> 00:14:38.782
I'm speaking of a certain subset of them that appear to be built on principles
00:14:39.182 --> 00:14:44.432
and business acumen and talent and things like that.
00:14:44.432 --> 00:14:48.402
And a pastor of a smaller or medium-sized church will look at that and say,
00:14:48.402 --> 00:14:50.962
well, I want to lead a church like that.
00:14:51.622 --> 00:14:54.549
I need to do those kinds of things.
00:14:55.402 --> 00:15:02.882
And Paul talks about in his letters that there will be works we do on earth
00:15:03.202 --> 00:15:09.293
that survive into eternity and are rewards essentially in heaven.
00:15:09.596 --> 00:15:14.368
And then there will be ones that burn up. And my personal thinking,
00:15:14.888 --> 00:15:20.438
and I'm not going to be judging any of these things, so my opinion is zero meaning.
00:15:20.438 --> 00:15:24.683
But I think a lot of those kind of works that are human built,
00:15:24.822 --> 00:15:30.688
effort powered, and talent fueled are going to be those works that burn up.
00:15:30.688 --> 00:15:35.608
They appear monumental and amazing. And a pastor hearing you say,
00:15:35.608 --> 00:15:38.719
stop trying and trust in God more.
00:15:38.911 --> 00:15:42.968
They're like, oh, I'm never going to build a megachurch by stopping trying, Dr. CJ.
00:15:43.288 --> 00:15:49.668
So I would just like to encourage the person that hears that and his flesh is reacting. I get it.
00:15:49.828 --> 00:15:54.579
I know why that sounds hard because it's against my wiring too.
00:15:54.724 --> 00:15:58.988
But some of these things that look like the kingdom of God are really Christian
00:15:58.988 --> 00:16:00.768
city and they're going to burn up.
00:16:01.532 --> 00:16:04.068
They're not the kingdom of God. They're a Potomacan village.
00:16:04.068 --> 00:16:07.709
They're a facade. They're not fruit that remains. Yeah.
00:16:08.044 --> 00:16:12.319
So let's assume we still have pastors and leaders that are tracking with us
00:16:12.319 --> 00:16:17.639
and want to build this culture of prayer in their church and not go the fleshly way.
00:16:17.639 --> 00:16:23.979
So, Dr. CJ, what are some elements that we need to see a culture of prayer in
00:16:23.979 --> 00:16:26.599
churches and in our own lives?
00:16:26.919 --> 00:16:30.259
What are the elements that kind of help produce that culture?
00:16:31.379 --> 00:16:35.879
Again, the prayer retreat has given us some insight into some of these elements.
00:16:35.879 --> 00:16:40.959
And I was blowing away my mind that why didn't I know this? Why didn't I put this together?
00:16:41.419 --> 00:16:45.049
We had other people who are smarter than us doing this. But it talks about three
00:16:45.049 --> 00:16:48.289
elements. The retreat actually talks about three elements needed for prayer
00:16:48.289 --> 00:16:52.293
culture in churches and Christian life. One is theological convictions.
00:16:52.433 --> 00:16:55.649
You certainly have to have a conviction from the Lord that this is what it is.
00:16:55.794 --> 00:17:00.779
Second, they talk about intentional preparedness, intentional preparation of
00:17:01.099 --> 00:17:04.778
in order for the conviction to become realized, there has to be work.
00:17:04.894 --> 00:17:08.409
There has to be intentionality. And then the third piece really crushed me and
00:17:08.409 --> 00:17:10.079
that is humble desperation.
00:17:10.599 --> 00:17:14.249
How much do you want this? Do you really want this or not? And I think God has
00:17:14.249 --> 00:17:17.339
a way of testing us. And I think we have fallen into the trap,
00:17:17.339 --> 00:17:22.109
again, of creating unsustainable things, mainly because we operate out of one
00:17:22.109 --> 00:17:23.824
of these circles rather than all three.
00:17:23.963 --> 00:17:28.419
And the idea was we need all three. We need all three to continue to work.
00:17:28.419 --> 00:17:33.589
Otherwise, we are gonna have a, sometimes emotional rushes, like a mountaintop experience.
00:17:34.400 --> 00:17:39.033
Can't be reproduced. It's not sustainable. And sometimes it just becomes ritualistic.
00:17:39.166 --> 00:17:43.098
We have a Bible study, we have a prayer meeting, and it becomes something that
00:17:43.098 --> 00:17:46.777
just is there, not filled with the Spirit of God.
00:17:46.899 --> 00:17:50.498
Without power, without presence, no transformation happens there,
00:17:50.498 --> 00:17:55.140
and without joy, on and on and on. So here's how they put it.
00:17:55.384 --> 00:17:58.178
And I think these are the byproducts that we have to be careful.