March 1, 2026

Episode 6: Prayer is a Non Negotiable With Dr. Se J. Won + You Ain't Got This Alone + Learning From Ministry Failure And The Mysterious Missing Bos Rooibos Tea Crime and Review

Episode 6: Prayer is a Non Negotiable With Dr. Se J. Won + You Ain't Got This Alone + Learning From Ministry Failure And The Mysterious Missing Bos Rooibos Tea Crime and Review
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Season 1

Episode 6 of the Every Church Flourishing Podcast features Pastor Chris Cole and Dr. Chase A. Thompson interviewing Dr. Se J. Won the Director of Mission Operations for California's Great Commission Association.

Here's some random shownotes, quotes and a list of the resources we discussed. Check out www.EveryChurchFlourishing.com for a transcript!

You Ain’t Got This - I Need Help. Learning from failure. Needing God for everything - even the practical things like leaky faucets. The dangers of trying to succeed with sheer effort in ministry. There are 400 Pastor Kims listening to this podcast! “There’s many dead people that I’ve read that have helped me, but these are the mentors that are still alive.”

There are a lot of pastors out there who are lone rangers. Can pastors not be friends with people at their churches? Togetherness and partnership in ministry are not the only keys but are HUGE keys to avoiding ministry horror stories.

Sometimes you just have to go out and find a seasoned leader and say, “Hey! You’re going to mentor me!”

Would you rather take a cruise with a bunch of prominent pastors, or worship leaders, Prominent Christian authors, denominational leaders, or Christian singers/entertainers?

Pastor Se J.: “Worship is the missing element in many of our churches…if we don’t prioritize worship, which I believe is the precursor to prayer, then we’re all dry…something’s off, and you’re not connecting with God at the right frequency. Worship is crucial for me because that is how I connect with God.”

God doesn’t need our worship, but He does deserve our worship.

“Some of my best friends are pastors, and some of the most annoying people I’ve ever known are pastors.”

Will the willy-nilly soda stealer in the GCA offices ever be unmasked and brought to justice?

Resources Mentioned:

Daniel Henderson: Old Paths, New Power - an excellent prayer book

Jim Cymbala: Fresh Wind, Fresh Fire - a book that SHOWS the impact of a church that abides and prays intentionally.

Paul Miller: A Praying Life, Connecting with God in a Distracted World - Highly recommended by Pastor Chris Cole.

About Dr. Se J. Won: Oversees the systems, processes, and logistics that support mission work. Dr. Won ensures that operations run smoothly and efficiently— from project coordination to administrative support. His role enables our mission teams to serve with clarity, structure, and excellence.

WEBVTT

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All about helping churches, leaders, and pastors find health,

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encouragement, practical advice, soul care, and resources that work together

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to build up your local fellowship and the broader kingdom of God.

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Join hosts Dr. Michael Stewart, Pastor Chris Cole, and Dr.

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Chase Thompson from California's SBC Great Commission Association as they explore

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the frontiers of ministry and aim for the goal of making every church flourish.

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Welcome into another episode of Every Church flourishing. We have a great guest for us today. It is Dr.

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CJ Wan, who is the Major Domo, the Director of Mission Operations for the Great

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Commission Association.

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He's going to talk to us about prayer, abiding, things along those lines.

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It was a deep spiritual conversation.

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And before we get into talking about him, Chris, let's talk about some prayer resources.

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Dr. CJ talks about a couple in his interview. Let's you and I talk and preemptively

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bring up some of our own. What have you got for us?

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So I think my favorite book on prayer or resource on prayer

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Over the past few years is a book I was introduced to about six or seven years ago now.

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And it's a book called A Praying Life by Paul Miller.

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A Praying Life by Paul Miller. The book's been out for a while.

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When I got it, you can see at the top, 350,000 copies had been sold.

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Now, if you go to Amazon, the new edition of this, there's over half a million

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copies of this book sold. So it's certainly been popular.

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But what I gained and gleaned from this book was not really so much the techniques of prayer,

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although there's some really good practical tips about building a prayer journal

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and how to structure an active prayer life, but really the posture and heart of prayer.

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Paul taught me, not only through this book, but through some conferences I got

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the privilege of attending with him, to talk to God as a child.

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And I realized that I had to get past some of my own childhood wounds and the

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way that I thought parents felt and approached people to understand that God's

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approaching as a loving father and delights to answer.

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Paul's got some great resources in the book talking about what keeps us from

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going to God, our cynicism.

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So he addresses a lot of the underlying unbeliefs that keep us from going to

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God in an active prayer life.

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And the idea that we should be experienced

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expecting God to answer our prayer. So he just blessed and encouraged me,

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not only with this book, but if you get a chance to attend one of his See Jesus events,

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Whether it's J Curve, which is another one of his resources,

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or A Praying Life, I think you'll be much encouraged and strengthened and equipped in prayer.

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Now, you, Pastor Chase, have a prayer resource that you'd like to share as well.

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Yeah, and if you were watching the video of our conversation,

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you would notice that for the first 90 seconds that Chris was talking, I was distracted.

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It's not because I was checking my fantasy football team score or anything like that.

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I actually was sold pretty early on in your conversation about the Paul Miller

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book, and I just bought it on Audible.

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But a book I know that you and I have both read is by Pastor Jim Cimbala of

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the Brooklyn Tabernacle Church.

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I hesitated to, I was aware of this book for years, but I hesitated to buy it

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because the only way I knew the Brooklyn Tabernacle Church early on is that

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they had some sort of famous choir that did a lot of singing.

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And I don't know. I didn't think that sounded very familiar.

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Super spiritual or whatever.

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So I didn't give Pastor Jim Cimbala much attention.

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But finally, somehow, someway, a few years ago, somebody convinced me to read that book.

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One of the best books I've ever read on prayer and the way he goes about talking about it.

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There's so many stories in there that I really like.

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Show me, you know, you want to get me to value something. show me how important it is.

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And Jim Cimbala does an exceptional job of showing us how important prayer is

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in the life of a congregation, how necessary it is.

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We keep talking about John 15, abiding in Christ and how that is the underlying

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key to every church flourishing.

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Cimbala's book just does a fantastic job with testimony after testimony,

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story after story to point God's people to be a people of prayer.

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I cannot recommend it highly enough.

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Absolutely. And I would amen everything you just said.

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And if you're a pastor or a leader in a church that is struggling,

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you're plateaued, you're declined,

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you're sort of just running out of hope, that book, Fresh Wind,

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Fresh Fire, is a great encouragement towards your situation.

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In fact, the testimony in the book is about how they went from a deeply broken,

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weak church to a church that is thriving and flourishing largely through the

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power of prayer and the faithfulness of the people of God to petition their heavenly father.

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That book, along with the book that CJ mentioned, in the interview,

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Daniel Henderson's book, Old Paths, New Power.

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Those will be in our show notes for this episode, and you'll be able to find

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all of the resources we recommend there.

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Now, we like to do, in every one of our episodes, a little segment where we're

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sharing in various soda flavors from around the world.

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We had planned for us to drink together a sparkling rooibos iced tea, strawberry flavor.

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And that was supposed to be on our schedule for this particular episode.

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But as it happens here at the GCA offices, apparently somebody else saw the

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tea in the fridge and decided it looked really good. It has disappeared.

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So Pastor Chase, I don't have one of these.

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So we're going to have to rely on your palate alone and exclusively to tell

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us how many Spurgeons is this tea and what are the nuances of the flavors.

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We're going to have to do all of that. So we're looking forward to hearing your

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take on the Boss Sparkling Rooibos Ice Tea.

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Yeah, and look, I'm happy to do that. But this whole incident with the tea going

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missing raises an even bigger question.

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Do you think the evangelical church can handle yet another scandal of there

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being a thief in the Great Commission Association offices who just willy-nilly steals?

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Sodas like that?

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Willy nilly steals. Yeah, we searched high and low and we even,

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in the break, we sent messengers out,

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electronic messengers out to find out where has the tea gone?

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We know it was here just a few days ago, but it has in fact disappeared.

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So there's a few possibilities here, but I'm going to be charitable,

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Pastor Chase, and believe this. that one of my coworkers came along and we didn't

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get it labeled properly for the podcast.

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And somebody else looked at that and they said, that looks delicious.

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And I need some of that sparkling rooibos tea.

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And I hope it was an encouragement to their day.

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They might have needed that pick-me-up, right? They might have needed that blessing.

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So I'm just going to assume that I didn't need the blessing today.

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They needed that particular blessing.

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And maybe in the future, I'll get to try this if it's good. Now, here's the thing.

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If it's bad, if it's bad and they took it.

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It's grace. It's grace. Yeah. Yeah. If somebody had taken the Lester's Fixin Ranch soda.

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That would have been so good.

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That would have been grace.

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If I had been watching you drink that alone,

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I would have been laughing hysterically because it would have been such a good

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moment to watch you have to down that as I was not having to down it.

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So if this is bad, the good news for me is I don't have to try it and I,

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I'm not responsible for that reality. Right. Yeah.

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Yes, that's right. That's right.

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All right. Well, let's, should you go for it?

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Let's go for it. Okay. Let's smell it. Oh, it's got a good, clean,

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fresh smell, strawberry flavor. It's kind of fruity.

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It does a little bit. There's a picture if you're watching at home on video.

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The Boss Sparkling Rooibos Ice Tea.

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Whoa, that's not exactly what I expected. Let's try another sip.

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Okay, yeah. So I will tell you, Pastor Chris, at the Thompson household,

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we keep rooibos tea on hand because I read years ago that rooibos tea,

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for reasons I've long since forgot, is really good for asthma.

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And sometimes when the kids get sick, we will drink rooibos tea,

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and it seems to help a little.

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Not sure if that's the placidabo effect or not, but I think it's a bronchodilator that really works.

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And so I'm familiar with the taste of rooibus. It's not real tea.

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It doesn't come from the Camellia Sinensis tree bush. So it's a different kind of thing altogether.

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But the thing that threw me on my first sip, it's carbonated tea.

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Which is weird, I guess, but it's not bad. It's not bad.

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I don't know that grace has protected you from this.

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I think whoever drank this probably enjoyed it, but also might have thought

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it was weird. So what does it taste like?

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Well, you can kind of taste that rooibosian red tea, bush tea kind of taste there.

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That's pretty prominent. And you can definitely taste the carbonation.

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It's got a good, light mouth feel.

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This would be a great can to drink if you're watching a baseball game or picnicking

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or you're out in the sunlight somewhere and you're hot and kind of thirsty.

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What I would really like more of, though, is I want some more of that that strawberry

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flavor to punch a little bit harder.

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It's fruity ish, fruity adjacent, but I really wouldn't mind it being a lot

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stronger in the strawberry department.

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OK, now that product, Roybus Ice Tea, this this particular one,

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it comes from South Africa.

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That's the boss brands. So that's a South African sparkling beverage right there.

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Yes. And you know what? I'm going to go ahead and give you one out of one on

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our trivia questions, because most teas come from somewhere in Asia, Japan, China or India.

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But rooibos comes from one specific mountain in Cedarburg.

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And the name sounds a little Dutch, but as you have already revealed,

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the country of origin for rooibos tea is South Africa. And let me hit you.

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I'm sorry you can't experience this. Let me give you the Spurgeons and then

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I'm going to hit you with a couple of more questions.

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I'm going to give this three and a half Spurgeons. Very drinkable.

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Not as delightful as our ginger beer. Maybe a slight bit under our Chupa Chups

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bubblegum flavor, but very drinkable and probably healthier than either one of those.

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It's 234 kilojoules.

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Okay. Now I had to look that up. Okay.

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I'm glad you did. Cause I don't know.

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I don't know what kilojoules are. I'm not that sophisticated.

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It's a thousand joules. How about that?

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Well, it is right. It's a thousand joules. Now I have a, uh,

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my oldest daughter is a, is in medical field and she works as a nurse and she's

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very, very good scientist. She has degrees in chemistry and other things like that.

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So she would know what this is. I had to look it So 234 kilojoules is apparently

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55.9 or 56 calories, kilocalories.

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Yeah, okay. So better than a Coke, better than a Mountain Dew,

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better than a Chupa Chups, and it's tasty.

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So I'm going to say three and a half Spurgeons out of five.

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Three and a half Spurgeons on the rooibos tea.

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So somebody that needed the pick-me-up and disappeared, how about we use that?

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They disappeared the rooibos tea from the fridge here at the Great Commission Association offices.

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That person enjoyed it, is what you're telling you.

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I hope they did. It's a pleasant red beverage. It's got a good smell to it. It's fresh.

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I'm happy with it, and I'm happy to drink it for the rest of the show.

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Let me ask you a couple of questions about rooibos tea.

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Absolutely. Let's go for it.

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The word itself is Afrikaans, so Dutch origin. And it can be strange to pronounce,

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but I think we're doing a pretty good job. It's rooibos, even though it's spelled R-O-O-I-B-O-S.

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But if you look at the tea itself, what it is is very literal.

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Based on the color of the drink I told you, what do you think rooibos translates to in English?

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Translate. Pink.

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Close.

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Red.

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Red, red what?

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Red, red, red butter.

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Red bush.

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Bush.

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Because it comes from a red bush. So that's what rooibos means.

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And that gets us to our second question.

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As I said, it's not from the tea plant, Camellia sinensis.

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It's from a broom-like legume, kind of related to beans and things like that.

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Because of that, what jittery, anxiety-inducing substance is rooibos naturally completely free of?

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Caffeine.

00:14:49.230 --> 00:14:50.990
You got it. Caffeine.

00:14:50.990 --> 00:14:51.630
All right.

00:14:52.010 --> 00:14:56.170
That gives you a two out of three batting average today. So you are very close

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to being an expert on rooibos.

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I'm so close to being an expert. That is really, really good.

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Well, I hope our brothers and sisters in the churches in South Africa enjoy

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their rooibos tea and enjoy that sparkling beverage there.

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So we're always glad that around the world there's brothers and sisters that

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get to enjoy these beverages.

00:15:17.410 --> 00:15:23.490
Although I don't think anybody, wherever Lester Stixson's ranch dressing soda

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comes from, no one's enjoying that.

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That's not a thing. I think that's not a good experience. But maybe in Jamaica

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or in the UK, they're enjoying that old Jamaica ginger beer.

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And here we hope our brothers and sisters in Christ are enjoying that rooibos tea.

00:15:41.770 --> 00:15:47.030
So we should probably segue from this into an interview that we think you'll

00:15:47.030 --> 00:15:50.990
enjoy as Pastor C.J., Pastor Dr. C.J.

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Talks to us about prayer, the importance of prayer, and how prayer is key to

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leading churches into a place of flourishing and communities into gospel transformations.

00:16:02.705 --> 00:16:06.085
And we have the privilege now of being joined by Dr.

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Pastor C.J. Wan, who is the Director of Mission Operations for the Great Commission

00:16:11.925 --> 00:16:15.045
Association of Southern Baptist Churches here in Central California.

00:16:15.265 --> 00:16:17.065
Dr. C.J., thanks for being with us.

00:16:17.425 --> 00:16:18.245
Good to be here.

00:16:18.485 --> 00:16:23.665
C.J., a lot of people don't know perhaps these things about you,

00:16:23.825 --> 00:16:28.605
but you are an expert on so many different kinds of ministry.

00:16:28.885 --> 00:16:34.385
You've done a wide variety of ministry. You minister around the world, literally.

00:16:34.745 --> 00:16:39.385
You lead a Bible study devotional for people in Beijing.

00:16:39.585 --> 00:16:40.585
I did not know this.

00:16:40.585 --> 00:16:43.665
Yeah, it showed up on my calendar system. That's how I found out about this.

00:16:43.765 --> 00:16:45.985
But CJ does this on a regular basis.

00:16:46.265 --> 00:16:51.125
He is a very talented musician. Once again, see, I told you I'm the only person

00:16:51.125 --> 00:16:55.825
on GCA staff that's not a musician, apparently.

00:16:56.565 --> 00:16:58.025
I have no talent myself.

00:16:58.425 --> 00:17:04.365
Exactly. But CJ is a very good vocalist, guitarist, many different skills and

00:17:04.365 --> 00:17:09.805
ministry experiences, and you've done a lot of different roles with GCA over the years.

00:17:09.925 --> 00:17:14.645
But right now, you lead our mission operations team, helping support our schools,

00:17:14.845 --> 00:17:20.665
our ministries, and then you also minister to a lot of our Asian American churches,

00:17:20.825 --> 00:17:25.005
helping connect them into our ministry, and we appreciate all of that.

00:17:25.225 --> 00:17:29.525
But I think one thing that does stand out in your life is prayer.

00:17:29.765 --> 00:17:33.925
People that are around you know that you value prayer. Prayer is one of your

00:17:33.925 --> 00:17:35.845
life messages and one of your life priorities.

00:17:36.065 --> 00:17:40.745
So maybe the first question to ask you is, how did prayer become an important

00:17:40.745 --> 00:17:43.925
part of your life and ministry?

00:17:44.225 --> 00:17:47.605
And then maybe a second question that would be related to that is,

00:17:47.765 --> 00:17:51.665
if you're counseling or encouraging a pastor to prioritize prayer,

00:17:51.845 --> 00:17:54.705
what would you give them as an encouragement to do that?

00:17:54.885 --> 00:17:59.425
God has given me different roles throughout, I guess, my ministry careers.

00:18:00.077 --> 00:18:06.757
And even here at GCA, I've been given different roles, and God was to credit

00:18:06.757 --> 00:18:09.657
everything that happened here, good and bad and the ugly.

00:18:09.897 --> 00:18:12.297
And so I don't take any credit for any of those.

00:18:13.017 --> 00:18:18.617
Nonetheless, I think the prayer is really something I can't say I'm good at

00:18:18.617 --> 00:18:21.017
or I'm mastered at or anything like that.

00:18:21.017 --> 00:18:29.437
It's just that I know for a fact that prayer is the fuel that moves anything

00:18:29.437 --> 00:18:33.637
and everything that we do here. It cannot be without prayer.

00:18:34.397 --> 00:18:38.097
We are pretty good at doing church. We're pretty good at doing ministry.

00:18:38.397 --> 00:18:45.577
We know how to do that. And there's books and books and podcasts and anything else about that.

00:18:45.577 --> 00:18:51.577
But really, prayer for me was an area that perhaps I could credit to my grandmother

00:18:51.577 --> 00:18:57.537
who prayed on a regular basis three, four times a day on the clock across different

00:18:57.537 --> 00:19:00.557
times and lifting up pastors, missionaries,

00:19:00.937 --> 00:19:03.057
and everybody else in the family, obviously.

00:19:03.057 --> 00:19:09.617
But it's really because I have come to realize my limitation on who I am and

00:19:09.617 --> 00:19:12.857
my reality of what I could do.

00:19:13.077 --> 00:19:18.717
And I think knowing how powerless and limited I am and the role that he's given

00:19:18.717 --> 00:19:21.677
me has always been bigger than me.

00:19:22.617 --> 00:19:27.237
I don't know if that's true with you guys, but anything he asked me to do, I'm going, what?

00:19:27.337 --> 00:19:33.957
You want me to do this? And so it's always come to a wall where I was staring

00:19:33.957 --> 00:19:38.297
at and sometimes sitting in the parking lot going, Lord, I don't know what this looks like.

00:19:38.437 --> 00:19:43.497
I have no idea how to push this part forward or I don't even know what I don't even know.

00:19:44.386 --> 00:19:49.426
And so I think it came down to me just saying, God, I need you to show me the next step.

00:19:49.526 --> 00:19:52.486
I don't need to see the whole thing, but show me next step.

00:19:53.066 --> 00:19:57.746
Help me to get to the next thing. And so that's sort of been my practice.

00:19:57.986 --> 00:20:03.066
Now, there's tons of resources and other things out there that will help pastors

00:20:03.066 --> 00:20:04.306
and books and other things.

00:20:04.506 --> 00:20:09.486
I've mentioned in the other podcasts as well. But it's really a ministry that

00:20:09.486 --> 00:20:11.306
sometimes we don't highlight enough.

00:20:11.806 --> 00:20:17.486
We talk about it. We preach on it and teach on it, but we don't sometimes actually do it.

00:20:17.886 --> 00:20:21.846
And so that's still my struggle for myself and my wife.

00:20:22.006 --> 00:20:26.106
We put it on our calendar every January, February or so, 30 days,

00:20:26.226 --> 00:20:28.146
60 days, 90 days. We tried all of it.

00:20:29.208 --> 00:20:33.428
Probably going to stick to 30 days this year of 30-day fast,

00:20:33.628 --> 00:20:36.988
dinner, just to skip and spend time just praying.

00:20:37.208 --> 00:20:42.088
Because you'd be surprised how many things come up in your life,

00:20:42.168 --> 00:20:44.848
in your ministry, your family that just needs prayer.

00:20:45.508 --> 00:20:52.428
But if you just set aside a time, I think that helps you to focus on the stuff

00:20:52.428 --> 00:20:55.048
that the Spirit would reveal once you give them space.

00:20:55.528 --> 00:20:58.628
But for us, I just have to create that space intentionally.

00:20:59.208 --> 00:21:02.388
And first thing I do when I get to the office is that 15 minutes,

00:21:02.468 --> 00:21:07.148
20 minutes, just to sit there and say, God, I got stuff and,

00:21:07.268 --> 00:21:11.048
you know, I need your help here. And so that's really what's been happening.

00:21:11.368 --> 00:21:17.068
There's many teachings on how I believe God is wanting to bless us,

00:21:17.408 --> 00:21:21.028
wanting to release his power upon our ministry, our family.

00:21:21.628 --> 00:21:24.568
But I think he might be waiting for us.

00:21:25.188 --> 00:21:30.608
That's what my thought was. I think he's waiting for me to cry out to him for it.

00:21:31.508 --> 00:21:34.608
Because James says, do not have because you do not ask.

00:21:34.848 --> 00:21:38.068
Yeah, and it's not even in your radar. So God is saying, I'm just going to wait

00:21:38.068 --> 00:21:43.608
until you realize you need this, until you realize that you need my help.

00:21:43.748 --> 00:21:49.828
And so I think that's the major points that stuck to my mind about prayer.

00:21:50.188 --> 00:21:55.748
And the other flip side is, again, and as Chris mentioned, my teachings or devotionals

00:21:55.748 --> 00:21:59.108
I do with Beijing friends, and I've been doing that for 14 years,

00:21:59.248 --> 00:22:00.428
so it's kind of a long time.

00:22:01.247 --> 00:22:05.827
And as you do that, and one of the teaching was on prayer, and I told him this,

00:22:06.007 --> 00:22:11.467
if you are not praying, there's a significant issue, theological issue.

00:22:11.807 --> 00:22:15.607
And that is, you're actually telling God, I don't need you.

00:22:16.007 --> 00:22:16.487
Yes.

00:22:16.927 --> 00:22:21.167
In this part, this life, this segment, this thing, whatever it is.

00:22:21.267 --> 00:22:25.187
And so I certainly don't want God to feel like I'm telling him,

00:22:25.447 --> 00:22:28.227
God, thank you, but step aside because I got this.

00:22:28.827 --> 00:22:33.627
And so I think those are main things that prayer and simplest that can be,

00:22:33.867 --> 00:22:40.067
I have to remind myself, I don't have it solved. I don't have a solve.

00:22:40.287 --> 00:22:42.647
And so I have to just ask.

00:22:43.127 --> 00:22:47.107
And giving him space, I think is, Chris, you mentioned, you know,

00:22:47.147 --> 00:22:49.767
how can we help our pastors? I think that's one thing.

00:22:49.907 --> 00:22:53.907
I think if pastors could just carve out a space in their time,

00:22:54.247 --> 00:22:59.267
day, week, month, or whatever. If they could carve out a specific time and space

00:22:59.267 --> 00:23:02.687
just to be with God, you don't have to have all the prayer things.

00:23:03.247 --> 00:23:08.987
I think that will be a big start that will help them shape their ministry

00:23:10.034 --> 00:23:14.214
Many things will happen. Supernatural things will happen when you give God space.

00:23:15.434 --> 00:23:20.814
And the other books I mentioned before, that studying the topics of prayer in

00:23:20.814 --> 00:23:25.974
the Bible, studying the prayers of saints in the Bible, I think those are great.

00:23:26.594 --> 00:23:30.194
And then I mentioned Old Path, New Power by Daniel Henderson.

00:23:30.194 --> 00:23:32.654
I think that's also very significant.

00:23:32.774 --> 00:23:38.034
It just kind of drives and kind of unearths many things that we might have taken

00:23:38.034 --> 00:23:41.494
for granted, it, but he just kind of brings it forward. So that's helpful.

00:23:42.394 --> 00:23:47.614
So yeah, prayer is not because it's big on my life, but it's just that knowing

00:23:47.614 --> 00:23:49.994
at least the tidbits that I mentioned today,

00:23:50.734 --> 00:23:55.334
knowing that I feel like, oh, I don't want to be caught not praying,

00:23:55.834 --> 00:23:59.554
not caught, but I don't want to be a person not praying because there's so much

00:23:59.554 --> 00:24:01.354
repercussion of what I'm actually

00:24:01.354 --> 00:24:05.974
doing and saying spiritually and theologically if I'm not praying.

00:24:06.534 --> 00:24:10.554
Yeah. You know, I think there's so much good in what you just shared.

00:24:10.814 --> 00:24:16.814
I was thinking about John 14, 15, and 16, where in the middle of that,

00:24:16.974 --> 00:24:20.434
John 15, Jesus says, you know, I'm the vine, you're a branch.

00:24:20.874 --> 00:24:28.974
If you remain in me, and if I remain in you, then you will bear much fruit.

00:24:29.134 --> 00:24:35.634
But apart from me, of course, you can do nothing. And then that passage is saturated, John 15, John 14,

00:24:35.894 --> 00:24:43.394
with these crazy promises that if you ask, I will do these things over and over

00:24:43.394 --> 00:24:45.434
again. Ask me anything, Jesus says.

00:24:45.734 --> 00:24:49.934
Greater works, right? You know, one book that I found really encouraging on

00:24:49.934 --> 00:24:52.774
prayer is A Praying Life by Paul Miller.

00:24:53.290 --> 00:24:59.950
That's a fantastic book to challenge us in a sort of thinking through a personal

00:24:59.950 --> 00:25:07.770
practice of prayer in a systematic way that genuinely is dependent on the way CJ's talking about it.

00:25:08.070 --> 00:25:13.670
Pastor Chase, any works or recommendations or resources on prayer that have been beneficial to you?

00:25:13.830 --> 00:25:18.510
Absolutely. I'll go old school and recommend a book called Reese Howells,

00:25:18.770 --> 00:25:21.810
Intercessor, and the diaries of George Mueller.

00:25:22.290 --> 00:25:26.590
George Mueller was a fascinating guy, Bristol.

00:25:26.890 --> 00:25:31.750
He was German, but he lived in England, started orphanages, never asked for

00:25:31.750 --> 00:25:34.270
an offering or anything like that. He just prayed.

00:25:34.610 --> 00:25:37.710
And ultimately, he and his wife, in the orphanages he started,

00:25:37.870 --> 00:25:40.590
took care of like 10,000, 12,000 kids.

00:25:40.870 --> 00:25:45.570
His diary, his journal, journals all of his prayer requests.

00:25:46.030 --> 00:25:49.150
And there's thousands in there. It's like four volumes.

00:25:49.330 --> 00:25:54.970
And he prayed and kept careful track of God's answer.

00:25:55.210 --> 00:25:58.750
And again and again and again, it's astonishing how much it is.

00:25:58.930 --> 00:26:03.730
I think we make the mistake of coming to God in the wrong approach.

00:26:03.830 --> 00:26:09.830
We come to him and ask for him to fix our problems once we messed it all up.

00:26:09.970 --> 00:26:14.830
Rather than saying, God, this is your problem. We need you to direct and resource this.

00:26:15.110 --> 00:26:20.190
And so we got it off. We got it in the wrong order. And so most of our prayers

00:26:20.190 --> 00:26:23.670
that I've done many, many years is, God, please help fix this.

00:26:23.830 --> 00:26:26.870
Get me through this problem that I made. I caused this trouble,

00:26:27.010 --> 00:26:29.870
but help me to overcome this issue.

00:26:30.030 --> 00:26:36.230
Well, as you mentioned, Chris, if we are remaining in Christ and He is in us,

00:26:36.879 --> 00:26:40.199
then none of those things really should be our focus of prayer.

00:26:40.479 --> 00:26:40.799
Yes.

00:26:41.099 --> 00:26:45.359
He should already know that. He wants to provide all the nutrients and everything we need.

00:26:45.559 --> 00:26:49.839
Everything will be given to me. But I sort of take the other approach and say,

00:26:49.939 --> 00:26:56.199
God, I will do my thing. And if I get this wrong, if something goes south on me, please help.

00:26:57.119 --> 00:27:03.459
Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, if we are to experience a,

00:27:03.859 --> 00:27:10.419
again, just my mind wonders, If our churches and pastors and others could get

00:27:10.419 --> 00:27:15.379
tapped into this power that is overflowing, and God wants to,

00:27:15.499 --> 00:27:18.539
and He has all the capacity to. It's not a strain.

00:27:18.979 --> 00:27:22.179
It's not a strain. He could do this on a wimp. He could just do it.

00:27:22.359 --> 00:27:24.599
He doesn't need any of our help to do it.

00:27:24.659 --> 00:27:24.899
Yes.

00:27:25.019 --> 00:27:27.959
It's just that we seem to be the one getting in the way.

00:27:28.119 --> 00:27:33.879
I seem to be the one getting in the way of what God wants to do in me and through

00:27:33.879 --> 00:27:35.159
me and through our churches.

00:27:35.159 --> 00:27:40.399
And so if our churches and pastors starts calling out on him and tap into this

00:27:40.399 --> 00:27:46.699
source of power, all of us will get goosebumps of many, many answered prayers

00:27:46.699 --> 00:27:49.999
or even prayers that we didn't even ask. And God decided, hey.

00:27:50.562 --> 00:27:53.462
You are faithful with few. I'm going to bless you with more.

00:27:53.602 --> 00:27:56.002
And as Paul says, more than we could ask or imagine.

00:27:56.362 --> 00:28:01.362
I was raised by a father who's still alive and very self-sufficient,

00:28:01.622 --> 00:28:06.282
very successful, a lawyer, very much pull yourself up by your bootstraps,

00:28:06.482 --> 00:28:08.482
make it happen, that sort of thing.

00:28:08.602 --> 00:28:10.762
And so that's very wired deep into me.

00:28:11.102 --> 00:28:16.662
And early on in ministry, God sent me a partner named Sam, who his life message

00:28:16.662 --> 00:28:20.922
is from John 15, abide. And apart from Jesus, you can do nothing.

00:28:21.122 --> 00:28:25.842
And he's the one that introduced me to Reese Howells and maybe George Mueller as well.

00:28:26.022 --> 00:28:31.142
And in my early days of ministry, I read a lot of Leonard Ravenhill and people

00:28:31.142 --> 00:28:33.422
like that who were just really strong.

00:28:33.682 --> 00:28:39.742
Prayer, prayer, prayer, revival, that sort of thing. So that's in my early ministry DNA.

00:28:40.042 --> 00:28:45.922
But in my earliest DNA, it's this Protestant work ethic.

00:28:46.082 --> 00:28:50.062
I got to make it happen. I got to work hard. So probably a lot of people are

00:28:50.062 --> 00:28:52.722
listening to this right now, deacons, Sunday school leaders,

00:28:52.942 --> 00:28:56.982
moms and dads, and pastors in particular, who are self-starters,

00:28:57.162 --> 00:28:59.462
who are motivated people.

00:28:59.662 --> 00:29:03.722
It's almost like they have the mentality, I'm not going to bother God with this,

00:29:03.802 --> 00:29:05.202
I'm going to make it happen myself.

00:29:05.862 --> 00:29:10.282
What kind of counsel, Pastor CJ, would you give to people like that who,

00:29:10.442 --> 00:29:16.302
in their flesh, it's difficult for them to have that impulse of prayer?

00:29:16.862 --> 00:29:23.662
I think it's not so much that they don't want to see God or that they're anti-God

00:29:23.662 --> 00:29:26.262
in praying. I don't think it's any of those.

00:29:27.002 --> 00:29:31.582
If they are, they're in trouble already. They're in the wrong place.

00:29:31.702 --> 00:29:32.682
Yeah, that's a separate podcast.

00:29:33.502 --> 00:29:37.502
But if they are just coming to the realization that

00:29:38.040 --> 00:29:40.880
This is a spiritual thing that we do.

00:29:41.040 --> 00:29:47.620
It has powers beyond and implications beyond what any of us can do.

00:29:47.880 --> 00:29:50.060
We are his servants, his vessels.

00:29:50.400 --> 00:29:55.760
But at best, God could choose to use us or not use us. And he could still accomplish

00:29:55.760 --> 00:29:57.480
his will, with or without us.

00:29:57.900 --> 00:30:01.880
But if we lean into him and say, God, here I am.

00:30:02.160 --> 00:30:03.100
Use me.

00:30:03.400 --> 00:30:05.940
I want to be used for your glory today.

00:30:06.280 --> 00:30:12.700
I think there is a simple as that, just laying it before God, your calendar.

00:30:13.900 --> 00:30:17.020
If people have a hard time figuring out how to do that, well,

00:30:17.160 --> 00:30:20.720
stare at your calendar one by one. Just say, God, be with me in this meeting.

00:30:20.880 --> 00:30:23.800
Be with me in that email. Be with me as I prepare.

00:30:24.200 --> 00:30:30.080
I mean, there's easy things that'll saturate, I think, your focus on God.

00:30:30.180 --> 00:30:36.460
And that's really what it means. If you're praying, you are wanting God to intervene

00:30:36.460 --> 00:30:39.920
and interject in any way he wants. But you got to give him that room.

00:30:40.120 --> 00:30:42.780
You got to acknowledge that, God, I got four meetings today.

00:30:42.900 --> 00:30:46.860
I need you to be in each of these meetings and have your way in each of these

00:30:46.860 --> 00:30:48.640
meetings. Well, that's a different setup.

00:30:48.880 --> 00:30:51.440
Rather than going into the meeting, blowing it all up and say,

00:30:51.500 --> 00:30:52.680
God, please help this elder.

00:30:53.540 --> 00:30:55.400
You messed it up. Yeah.

00:30:56.360 --> 00:31:01.480
So I think those are going to be some practical things. But I think prayer itself

00:31:01.480 --> 00:31:04.200
helps align us to God's will.

00:31:04.380 --> 00:31:09.220
When you're in prayer, you're able to align, not because of how wise you are,

00:31:09.320 --> 00:31:10.880
but by the work of the Spirit.

00:31:11.100 --> 00:31:15.320
Spirit intercedes on our behalf about things we don't even know and fathom.

00:31:15.460 --> 00:31:20.260
But you give them space and time, I think God will be able to direct your mind,

00:31:20.420 --> 00:31:23.720
your thoughts, order things, and align them.

00:31:23.880 --> 00:31:27.060
And I think this is a big thing. If pastors are

00:31:27.060 --> 00:31:30.620
not praying I would say They're not in the wrong direction But they just have

00:31:30.620 --> 00:31:34.860
a misalignment Totally And when you're in misalignment It'll wobble It'll go

00:31:34.860 --> 00:31:39.160
to the wrong direction Wrong path And other things will break But I think When

00:31:39.160 --> 00:31:45.220
you're praying I think it aligns you With the will of God And we are prone to wander,

00:31:45.380 --> 00:31:51.780
brothers And we want to do our will Not that we overtly say We want to create

00:31:51.780 --> 00:31:55.260
our kingdom But we certainly want to do our own things Peace.

00:31:55.901 --> 00:32:03.161
But I think when you give space and time for prayer, he interjects and he aligns us with his will.

00:32:03.621 --> 00:32:08.121
Yeah. You said one thing early in your answer that I think is very profound

00:32:08.121 --> 00:32:13.481
for pastors in particular, but every other church leader. Much of what we have to do is spiritual.

00:32:13.961 --> 00:32:19.701
Much of what people complain to us about, the squeaky wheels essentially, is not spiritual.

00:32:19.701 --> 00:32:25.201
And so a pastor might have a tendency to do those things so that everything's

00:32:25.201 --> 00:32:30.901
running smoothly and they neglect, you know, it's the meme, the expression,

00:32:31.081 --> 00:32:33.361
you had one job. We have one job.

00:32:33.561 --> 00:32:38.621
It's a spiritual job. And apart from Jesus, that one job, we can get everything

00:32:38.621 --> 00:32:40.481
else done. We can even grow a big church.

00:32:40.641 --> 00:32:46.421
But apart from Jesus, that one job, that one focus, that one thing is not going to be done.

00:32:46.661 --> 00:32:49.461
You know, I just thought of something when you said that, Pastor Jase.

00:32:49.461 --> 00:32:53.741
I was thinking, I've been in ministry, this is my 34th year in ministry.

00:32:53.861 --> 00:32:56.941
I've never had a church member come and complain to me and say,

00:32:57.101 --> 00:33:00.401
you did not spend enough time in your private prayer closet, Pastor.

00:33:00.761 --> 00:33:06.661
But I know that is a truth that has happened at various seasons in my ministry.

00:33:06.801 --> 00:33:10.461
And yet I've never had a complaint about that. Not once. No one's ever said,

00:33:10.561 --> 00:33:11.421
you're not praying enough.

00:33:11.826 --> 00:33:18.906
And yet, I think that's a big miss, right? That we're not prioritizing that in that way.

00:33:19.226 --> 00:33:23.786
Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. Same here, 30 plus years of experience

00:33:23.786 --> 00:33:25.086
in ministry. I guess we're old.

00:33:25.306 --> 00:33:25.546
Yes.

00:33:25.946 --> 00:33:28.386
Nobody's ever said, hey, you're not praying enough. But I'm not,

00:33:28.526 --> 00:33:30.146
and I'm not just being humble.

00:33:30.266 --> 00:33:33.826
I mean, that is, you know, I have a tendency to not pray enough,

00:33:33.946 --> 00:33:36.146
and that's one of the greatest dangers of ministry.

00:33:36.206 --> 00:33:37.766
I don't know if we could ever pray enough.

00:33:37.886 --> 00:33:38.206
Sure, sure.

00:33:38.206 --> 00:33:43.986
But going back to your comment that when we deal with logistics and, you know,

00:33:44.326 --> 00:33:48.866
issues and broken pipes or, you know, whatever other things that tangible problems

00:33:48.866 --> 00:33:53.946
that come our way, none of those are, I would say, we could excuse all of that

00:33:53.946 --> 00:33:55.226
and say those are not spiritual.

00:33:55.386 --> 00:33:59.366
But if we're doing the ministry here on earth, everything we touch has a spiritual

00:33:59.366 --> 00:34:03.026
element to it. We have to make sure that the faucet is working.

00:34:03.246 --> 00:34:07.306
We have to do all the other work, but we need to bathe them in prayer.

00:34:07.306 --> 00:34:09.866
The whole operation has to be made in prayer.

00:34:10.066 --> 00:34:15.386
It's not, well, we got this, God, and you just blessed the Sunday worship at 9 to 10.

00:34:15.586 --> 00:34:19.426
That's not how it works. The whole mission, whole ministry, everything we do

00:34:19.426 --> 00:34:22.026
at GCA, everything is of Him and for Him.

00:34:22.106 --> 00:34:25.206
So we have to do everything with spiritual work.

00:34:25.393 --> 00:34:31.133
Tone to say, this is spiritual work that we're doing, although sometimes it feels like it's not.

00:34:31.313 --> 00:34:35.793
And it's such a key element to see every church flourish.

00:34:35.953 --> 00:34:39.733
We've been talking about leaders and pastors in particular and their personal

00:34:39.733 --> 00:34:42.193
prayer lives, but we haven't even touched on this.

00:34:42.393 --> 00:34:46.513
We probably won't in this podcast, but we need to probably do a whole future

00:34:46.513 --> 00:34:51.913
episode or two or three talking about what does it mean when we invite the congregation

00:34:52.493 --> 00:34:58.293
into an active kind of prayer life together and create those communities and

00:34:58.293 --> 00:35:03.153
cultures of prayer to facilitate that reality, right?

00:35:03.373 --> 00:35:08.573
Yeah, we're called to produce fruit that remains. And there will not be any

00:35:08.573 --> 00:35:12.793
churches flourishing apart from abiding in Jesus and apart from prayer.

00:35:12.973 --> 00:35:17.573
Well, Pastor CJ, our church loves you. You were the interim pastor there for

00:35:17.573 --> 00:35:19.653
six months. That's been eight years ago.

00:35:19.853 --> 00:35:23.533
They love you. You've had a lot of successes in ministry, but I think most of

00:35:23.533 --> 00:35:27.653
us, many of us at least, we learn more from our failures and our horror stories

00:35:27.653 --> 00:35:29.773
than we learn from our successes.

00:35:30.033 --> 00:35:34.693
So can you share with us one significant failure or horror story you have in

00:35:34.693 --> 00:35:35.973
ministry and what you learned from it?

00:35:36.113 --> 00:35:39.253
I had a hard time choosing because there's many.

00:35:39.493 --> 00:35:41.133
I have a list as well.

00:35:41.273 --> 00:35:47.473
And some are right for this podcast, some are not. Okay. But I will...

00:35:47.763 --> 00:35:51.163
Talk about two things. One is a personal thing and the other is a professional

00:35:51.163 --> 00:35:53.963
thing. Personal thing is financial issues.

00:35:54.463 --> 00:35:58.463
And this is probably known to anyone or maybe not known to anyone.

00:35:58.623 --> 00:36:03.923
So here it is. Before I got to GCA, about 15 years ago, I was in a,

00:36:04.143 --> 00:36:08.043
I had to resort to a debt consolidation, debt settlement program.

00:36:08.463 --> 00:36:14.743
Had to get a credit lawyers and others to help me fix and get over this issue. I was young.

00:36:14.983 --> 00:36:20.363
I was not making enough, but cost, credit cards and other things started compounding.

00:36:20.563 --> 00:36:27.263
Couldn't pay everything on time. And I think this is not a one-off story, but I was there.

00:36:27.403 --> 00:36:31.403
And it was painful and it was regulated.

00:36:32.043 --> 00:36:34.243
It had to get done. And so

00:36:34.990 --> 00:36:42.930
That started probably prior to I got to GCA, but it served me and God by His grace.

00:36:43.030 --> 00:36:46.630
I got it all done, but by His grace, He taught me many things.

00:36:46.930 --> 00:36:52.470
The painful lesson about resource, and we cannot not do without resources here on earth.

00:36:54.130 --> 00:36:59.570
I've did some talks and other things about how we need more margin to do more mission.

00:36:59.730 --> 00:37:04.530
Well, that's true all across. If you're family, your personal credit line,

00:37:04.690 --> 00:37:10.190
or if you're in financial shamble, it's difficult for you to do great work.

00:37:10.350 --> 00:37:14.850
And I think what I learned is I got to, first of all, learn to be content with

00:37:14.850 --> 00:37:18.370
what God has given me and to know that I have limits.

00:37:18.590 --> 00:37:23.070
And, you know, being 30 some year old, whatever, it's hard for you to know what your limit is.

00:37:23.230 --> 00:37:27.350
You think your next job or next thing will solve this problem and you do what

00:37:27.350 --> 00:37:32.910
you can. But the painful reality of managing and learning to be good steward

00:37:32.910 --> 00:37:36.290
of what God gives you is a lesson I learned.

00:37:36.430 --> 00:37:41.730
Right now, it's kind of ironic that I'm in the role of operations helping with

00:37:41.730 --> 00:37:45.710
GCA over all this thing because I think that was a painful lesson God taught me.

00:37:45.890 --> 00:37:49.890
You cannot do life or ministry here on earth without resources.

00:37:50.671 --> 00:37:54.971
But you have to make sure you're a good steward of it. If you're not, you can't do more.

00:37:55.251 --> 00:37:59.391
And I think the scripture really teaches us that. If you're not faithful or

00:37:59.391 --> 00:38:02.031
good with few, he will not trust you with more.

00:38:02.231 --> 00:38:05.411
And I've taken that to heart that the lesson is, yeah, you know,

00:38:05.571 --> 00:38:11.611
as an individual, as a father, as a husband and pastors and leaders who's listening,

00:38:11.851 --> 00:38:15.151
if we don't have that area managed and stewarded,

00:38:15.431 --> 00:38:21.791
I think we are in for a painful learning lesson because that is a big part of

00:38:21.791 --> 00:38:24.031
mission that we need to do and must do.

00:38:24.631 --> 00:38:30.371
And I really believe if we are faithful with the few, God will entrust us with

00:38:30.371 --> 00:38:31.991
more. And that will be the proof.

00:38:32.151 --> 00:38:36.091
Is God trusting us with more or not? If he starts taking more stuff away from

00:38:36.091 --> 00:38:39.491
us, we know that we're on the wrong side of the equation.

00:38:39.771 --> 00:38:45.911
So that's one of more of a personal, you could edit and cut that out as much

00:38:45.911 --> 00:38:53.411
as you want. But on a professional level, I think the lesson I learned about is leadership issues.

00:38:53.631 --> 00:38:58.051
And it's really title and position. And I think I struggle with it even now.

00:38:58.311 --> 00:39:02.851
And many of us across, when you're in different churches and ministries,

00:39:03.111 --> 00:39:08.771
you're given a position and a title, and you somehow believe you are fit for it.

00:39:08.891 --> 00:39:11.171
But I've already told you, that's not how I felt.

00:39:11.391 --> 00:39:15.491
I feel like I've learned that's not who I am. But when you're given a title

00:39:15.491 --> 00:39:19.011
as a pastor or a church planter, you do what you can.

00:39:19.171 --> 00:39:24.771
But I think it's really a test from God to say, can you grow into that role or the title?

00:39:24.971 --> 00:39:30.171
The mistake I made is really swinging the title or position, thinking that I am.

00:39:30.171 --> 00:39:39.291
And I've learned early on from my English ministry position to church planning position,

00:39:39.291 --> 00:39:45.851
as well as a director for education foundation across different overseas mission

00:39:45.851 --> 00:39:47.691
work. What I've learned is...

00:39:48.133 --> 00:39:51.353
I need help. I don't have this.

00:39:53.253 --> 00:39:54.473
You ain't got this.

00:39:54.553 --> 00:40:00.353
I don't have this. I need other people in my life who's going to speak into me.

00:40:00.453 --> 00:40:07.613
Otherwise, it'll be me trying to fit into a title or position that I have real

00:40:07.613 --> 00:40:10.173
little knowledge of how to make this work.

00:40:10.513 --> 00:40:15.633
And sometimes we try to get it done by just sheer effort. And this is when you

00:40:15.633 --> 00:40:18.753
start realizing that your body is not going to take it.

00:40:18.873 --> 00:40:22.433
You're going to be stressed and emotionally shot, and you're going to be snappy

00:40:22.433 --> 00:40:23.733
at everybody around you. Why?

00:40:23.913 --> 00:40:28.173
Because you're trying to fit a role or a title that, well, you have to grow

00:40:28.173 --> 00:40:31.873
into it. But growing into it requires, again, prayer.

00:40:32.253 --> 00:40:34.133
But the other part is you need people.

00:40:34.673 --> 00:40:40.493
God has placed wonderful people around all of us, but we have to be humble enough

00:40:40.493 --> 00:40:45.053
to ask. And so for me, before I started my church planning, I sort of realized

00:40:45.053 --> 00:40:47.573
I don't know what that looks like.

00:40:47.713 --> 00:40:51.413
So I've asked Pastor Kim, I'm just gonna remain in my Pastor Kim.

00:40:51.513 --> 00:40:54.093
There's probably 400 Pastor Kims that might be listening.

00:40:55.553 --> 00:40:59.613
But he's a dear mentor of mine. And I told him, I need two things from you.

00:40:59.793 --> 00:41:02.173
I need one is this has to be an autonomous church.

00:41:02.373 --> 00:41:04.433
And second, and I need you to be my mentor.

00:41:04.693 --> 00:41:09.193
I need you to give me free access to you whenever I have questions or concerns.

00:41:09.955 --> 00:41:14.795
Because I have many. And so he provided that for me. And so that was extremely helpful.

00:41:14.975 --> 00:41:21.515
Two other people, Dr. Stewart, as I was coming into GCA, I sort of saw that as him being my mentor.

00:41:21.635 --> 00:41:26.275
And he has for 14 years now, has taught me directly, indirectly,

00:41:26.995 --> 00:41:28.435
sometimes painfully, many things.

00:41:29.475 --> 00:41:35.195
I think a leader has to learn and to grow into the role that God assigns you.

00:41:35.195 --> 00:41:39.555
And so that was, he was a huge part in my life. And Dr.

00:41:39.715 --> 00:41:45.295
Jeff Orge, former president for Gateway, now the SPC president,

00:41:45.435 --> 00:41:47.295
but he's also been my mentor.

00:41:47.455 --> 00:41:52.735
He may know this, I may have said it to him, but how he thinks and how he leads

00:41:52.735 --> 00:41:55.875
in certain things, at least when I was doing the doctor program with him,

00:41:56.135 --> 00:42:01.795
he was instrumental in shaping and kind of putting guardrails and other things

00:42:01.795 --> 00:42:05.175
in front of me to say, hey, these are the things you got to play with.

00:42:05.195 --> 00:42:07.775
And this is how you got to see things.

00:42:07.975 --> 00:42:11.415
And so those people, those men have been

00:42:12.142 --> 00:42:16.002
champions. And there's many dead people that I read that help,

00:42:16.162 --> 00:42:19.102
but these are the ones I think that are still alive.

00:42:19.722 --> 00:42:24.482
I think there's a lot of pastors out there just because of the nature of the position.

00:42:24.802 --> 00:42:28.602
And obviously a lot of Christians and deacons and church leaders as well.

00:42:28.722 --> 00:42:29.842
But a lot of pastors who

00:42:29.842 --> 00:42:35.422
Are lone rangers. There's been this teaching in the body of Christ for quite

00:42:35.422 --> 00:42:39.062
some time that pastors can't really be friends with people in their church,

00:42:39.202 --> 00:42:43.002
which I find really ridiculous. Mystique of pastors, right? Yeah, yeah.

00:42:43.262 --> 00:42:47.662
And so there's that. And then if you're in a place like California,

00:42:47.922 --> 00:42:51.262
you might not have a lot of pastor friends that live in your neighborhood.

00:42:51.262 --> 00:42:56.542
I just happen to move in right next door to a pastor, which has been fantastic

00:42:56.542 --> 00:42:59.842
for my family and kids. And shout out to Jason. Love the guy.

00:43:00.162 --> 00:43:04.622
But it's not like there's a ton of us around. And you're absolutely right that

00:43:04.622 --> 00:43:10.442
this togetherness and unity and having other people in your life will keep us

00:43:10.442 --> 00:43:12.922
from so many of these horror stories that you're talking about.

00:43:13.142 --> 00:43:18.962
I would encourage anybody listening to really seek help and find people that

00:43:18.962 --> 00:43:22.702
you could trust and learn from because others have done this role.

00:43:22.842 --> 00:43:24.822
Others have done this mission work before us.

00:43:25.142 --> 00:43:28.762
And they may be dead, so you could read some of them. But there may be people

00:43:28.762 --> 00:43:32.462
who are alive who would love to spend time with you if you're saying,

00:43:32.602 --> 00:43:33.662
hey, let me buy you coffee.

00:43:33.842 --> 00:43:39.002
And this is how most pastors, well-seasoned leaders are already shaped.

00:43:39.282 --> 00:43:48.142
And so I think we need to tap into that generation or that pool of people to speak into our lives.

00:43:48.262 --> 00:43:51.262
It's okay, and it's sometimes necessary to try to find them.

00:43:51.282 --> 00:43:53.522
Exactly like you said, an offer to buy them coffee.

00:43:54.022 --> 00:43:57.942
Sometimes we wait. I prayed for years for a mentor, and finally,

00:43:58.142 --> 00:44:00.722
me and a group of guys, we just went out and found some.

00:44:01.162 --> 00:44:05.102
And basically, like, hey, you're going to mentor us. And they did, and they did a great job.

00:44:05.222 --> 00:44:09.482
But sometimes you've got to take a few steps and strike out a couple of times.

00:44:09.562 --> 00:44:13.542
Otherwise, you really will be a Lone Ranger, and that's just so dangerous in ministry.

00:44:13.822 --> 00:44:14.382
It is.

00:44:14.906 --> 00:44:19.106
Well, this is a great conversation that we've been having, and we have got to

00:44:19.106 --> 00:44:21.546
do this again, do this some more with CJ.

00:44:21.946 --> 00:44:24.806
We will be definitely bringing you back to talk about prayer,

00:44:25.406 --> 00:44:27.486
financial management within organizations.

00:44:27.626 --> 00:44:32.046
We've got to do some episodes about that, because you are absolutely correct

00:44:32.046 --> 00:44:36.706
that for churches to flourish, there has to be the management of the resources

00:44:36.706 --> 00:44:39.026
and the margin that we need to have for mission.

00:44:39.026 --> 00:44:44.766
We certainly know that within GCA, because we need partners to help us carry out our mission.

00:44:44.906 --> 00:44:49.906
We are not able to do this on our own, and we have many wonderful partners,

00:44:50.106 --> 00:44:54.446
churches across the United States that are helping us replant churches and plant

00:44:54.446 --> 00:44:56.806
churches, and we are so grateful for them.

00:44:57.186 --> 00:45:01.786
Well, Pastor CJ, we want to sort of wrap up this piece of our conversation by

00:45:01.786 --> 00:45:05.286
doing something we haven't yet done on this podcast, and that is we're going

00:45:05.286 --> 00:45:08.006
to give away a cruise. We're giving away cruise.

00:45:08.186 --> 00:45:08.466
Thank you.

00:45:08.566 --> 00:45:10.006
A hypothetical cruise, right?

00:45:10.146 --> 00:45:11.146
But we're giving it away.

00:45:11.726 --> 00:45:12.446
It's free.

00:45:12.586 --> 00:45:21.266
It's free. So no lack of margin or ministry resources were spared for this mythological

00:45:21.266 --> 00:45:22.726
cruise that we're going to give you.

00:45:22.866 --> 00:45:28.746
Okay, so we're giving you this mythological cruise, and you get to go on this

00:45:28.746 --> 00:45:31.226
cruise. Now, the cruise line gives you a choice.

00:45:31.526 --> 00:45:36.886
You can choose on this cruise to go with just prominent pastors,

00:45:37.486 --> 00:45:41.586
famous pastors, which by the way, Pastor Chase, this would never be my choice

00:45:41.586 --> 00:45:43.926
to go on a cruise with a group of prominent pastors.

00:45:43.926 --> 00:45:47.446
Some of my best friends are pastors, but some of the most annoying people I

00:45:47.446 --> 00:45:50.206
know are also pastors. I'm totally with you.

00:45:50.546 --> 00:45:55.386
Or you can have prominent worship leaders, like the best of the best,

00:45:55.526 --> 00:45:56.806
like they can all be there.

00:45:57.006 --> 00:46:02.066
You've got Casting Crowns and Chris Tomlin and City of Light, and they're all on...

00:46:02.066 --> 00:46:03.746
And your favorite, whoever your favorites are.

00:46:03.786 --> 00:46:06.566
Yeah, and whoever your favorites are. The Gettys are there. Yeah,

00:46:06.726 --> 00:46:07.786
everybody's there, right?

00:46:08.173 --> 00:46:12.493
Or you can go on a cruise with just denominational leaders.

00:46:12.673 --> 00:46:18.493
Actually, I was wrong. I think that one would rank lower than the pastor one for me, just for me.

00:46:18.693 --> 00:46:23.853
Or prominent Christian authors or prominent Christian entertainers.

00:46:23.993 --> 00:46:30.353
Okay, so you get to pick, but you have to pick a theme group to go on the cruise

00:46:30.353 --> 00:46:32.733
with. You can be there for the whole cruise.

00:46:32.913 --> 00:46:36.713
All the expenses are paid because we here at Every Church Flourishing have now

00:46:36.713 --> 00:46:39.133
given you this cruise opportunity.

00:46:39.493 --> 00:46:44.493
So, which cruise are you choosing, and what are some of the names that you would

00:46:44.493 --> 00:46:45.833
like to be on that cruise?

00:46:46.013 --> 00:46:50.153
My choice would be with worship, worship leaders.

00:46:50.753 --> 00:46:53.473
And why is that? Why would you choose the worship?

00:46:53.753 --> 00:46:57.533
Well, there's several, I think, reasons for me. One is worship,

00:46:57.733 --> 00:47:02.313
I think, is the missing element in many of our churches, and my life too.

00:47:02.593 --> 00:47:07.893
I have a hard time worshiping in spirit and in truth. and so if we don't

00:47:08.524 --> 00:47:12.364
And prioritize worship, which I believe is a precursor to prayer.

00:47:12.364 --> 00:47:15.344
If we don't do that part well, we're all dry.

00:47:16.064 --> 00:47:20.644
We're going to, you know, from shopping at Costco, we're entering into the presence

00:47:20.644 --> 00:47:23.524
of God. We're going, I still have a shopping list in my head.

00:47:23.764 --> 00:47:26.664
Something's off and you're not connecting at the right frequency.

00:47:27.044 --> 00:47:31.944
I think worship is that for me and singing and playing the guitar and worshiping.

00:47:32.084 --> 00:47:38.104
So I think worship is crucial for me because that's how I connect with God.

00:47:38.524 --> 00:47:44.724
It's a way for me to just, without hindrance, just with guitar or with voice,

00:47:44.884 --> 00:47:49.544
with band or whatever, we're able to just acknowledge God and focus on Him.

00:47:49.984 --> 00:47:55.124
And again, prayer often becomes my issues. But when we sing and worship like

00:47:55.124 --> 00:47:58.204
that, it becomes a center focus is Him.

00:47:58.484 --> 00:48:03.664
And I think He needs that, not need, wrong word. I think He deserves that more.

00:48:03.884 --> 00:48:09.384
Deserves, great word. Observes that center stage from all of us and me,

00:48:09.624 --> 00:48:13.724
our pastors, GCA, everyone, more than what it is now.

00:48:13.984 --> 00:48:18.264
And so if we could get the rock bands and people that love worship in the same

00:48:18.264 --> 00:48:22.524
room and spend hours and hours and hours and hours just worshiping,

00:48:22.724 --> 00:48:25.544
well, that alone, I think, will be a revival.

00:48:26.424 --> 00:48:29.104
That alone will set our, you know,

00:48:29.284 --> 00:48:34.864
aim right Because I think we will be entering into presence The throne room

00:48:34.864 --> 00:48:37.984
of God When we worship Him And, you know,

00:48:38.124 --> 00:48:41.964
Jesus taught us to pray that way Hallowed be your name was the first thing But

00:48:41.964 --> 00:48:47.104
we usually start with I need you God With other things And so I think worship

00:48:47.104 --> 00:48:52.804
is probably my pick And just to be there I'm not sure if I want to be in a

00:48:53.094 --> 00:48:59.474
In a cruise, locked up in a boat with pastors or denominational leaders or any.

00:48:59.714 --> 00:49:01.214
I tend to agree with that. Yeah.

00:49:01.474 --> 00:49:03.394
I think, yeah, that would be me.

00:49:03.594 --> 00:49:07.574
So you're driving home and you want to pop in some worship music or,

00:49:07.774 --> 00:49:11.114
you know, you want to facilitate a small Greek Bible study with some worship

00:49:11.114 --> 00:49:12.114
music. Who do you listen to?

00:49:12.194 --> 00:49:14.914
Currently, I'm listening to Charity. Charity Gale, I think.

00:49:16.214 --> 00:49:20.514
So she's the one that sang, Jesus, thank you for the blood.

00:49:21.394 --> 00:49:27.334
And I Speak Jesus is another song like that. That had come recently to my attention.

00:49:27.534 --> 00:49:30.594
I'm listening to that. Many classics too.

00:49:30.914 --> 00:49:34.114
Radman, Chris Tomlin and many others.

00:49:34.694 --> 00:49:40.354
City of Light, I think. They have done many that we sing here at the office.

00:49:40.774 --> 00:49:43.714
And so there's a good collection that I listen to.

00:49:43.954 --> 00:49:47.834
Same songs, but different date and different time with different issues.

00:49:47.834 --> 00:49:53.074
And so it delivers a different kind of depth in worship. When I sing it again

00:49:53.074 --> 00:49:56.154
tomorrow, it will be different because I'm different.

00:49:56.334 --> 00:49:59.834
It's a different day, different time, different problem. Worship, I think, is key.

00:50:00.314 --> 00:50:04.854
Yeah. Amen. Well, this has been a fantastic conversation. It only went 17 minutes

00:50:04.854 --> 00:50:08.494
and 28 seconds longer than it was scheduled.

00:50:08.834 --> 00:50:12.974
So thank you, Pastor CJ, for your time because we kept you here.

00:50:13.094 --> 00:50:16.774
We kept peppering you with questions because, quite frankly, we liked your answers.

00:50:16.954 --> 00:50:20.314
So this was good. But this was deep, and I hope everybody out there listening

00:50:20.314 --> 00:50:23.514
has been edified by it. Chris, you got any parting shots?

00:50:23.714 --> 00:50:28.074
No, I just love what CJ had to share. John Piper in Let the Nations Be Glad

00:50:28.074 --> 00:50:33.414
famously opens with the idea that missions is temporal because someday the work

00:50:33.414 --> 00:50:37.714
of missions, evangelism, as great as it is, will be done because...

00:50:38.349 --> 00:50:43.149
Worship is the actual aim of missions. The grand picture at the end of Scripture

00:50:43.149 --> 00:50:46.309
is Revelation 5-9, Revelation 7-9.

00:50:46.729 --> 00:50:50.769
Every tribe, every tongue, every people gathered around the throne room of God.

00:50:50.809 --> 00:50:55.269
And I think that fits together with our vision for every church flourishing,

00:50:55.529 --> 00:50:59.069
every community transformed by the good news of Jesus Christ,

00:50:59.209 --> 00:51:03.149
that we might see everybody joining in that great heavenly worship.

00:51:03.429 --> 00:51:06.489
And so I just love that idea. I'm grateful for CJ being here.

00:51:06.489 --> 00:51:10.429
By the way, for those of you that haven't had a chance to meet our amazing Director

00:51:10.429 --> 00:51:14.609
of Mission Operations, I can just tell you he's a great friend and a wonderful man of God.

00:51:14.949 --> 00:51:20.389
Amen to that. Yes. Thank you, Dr. CJ. Okay, that was a deep interview,

00:51:20.389 --> 00:51:22.769
and it really challenged me.

00:51:22.849 --> 00:51:30.009
In fact, I took some of what Dr. CJ said in that interview, which we did this past Monday,

00:51:30.249 --> 00:51:34.609
and used it for our Wednesday night church prayer meeting, copying some of what

00:51:34.609 --> 00:51:38.849
Pastor CJ said word for word. Of course, I gave him credit, but that was good.

00:51:38.969 --> 00:51:45.729
That exhorted me to lead our church in a greater direction of abiding in prayer.

00:51:45.869 --> 00:51:47.489
And I hope it did for you as well.

00:51:47.909 --> 00:51:52.809
Check out our website, which is everychurchflourishing.com. And as always,

00:51:53.009 --> 00:51:57.489
stay tuned for us next week when episode number seven drops,

00:51:57.869 --> 00:52:03.149
which will feature an interview with Miss Lynette Lozano, the school superintendent

00:52:03.149 --> 00:52:04.709
with the Great Commission Association.

00:52:05.149 --> 00:52:08.189
And Pastor Christopher Cole himself. See you next time.