WEBVTT
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Leaders and pastors find health, encouragement, practical advice,
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soul care, and resources that work together to build up your local fellowship
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and the broader kingdom of God.
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Join hosts, Pastor Chris Cole
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and Dr. Chase Thompson from the Great Commission Association, led by Dr.
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Mike Stewart, as they explore the frontiers of ministry and aim for the goal
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of making every church flourish.
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Well, hello again, everybody, and welcome into episode number nine of the Every
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Church Flourishing Podcast. We are a show that's all about church health,
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church growth, and taking care of pastors, leaders, and ministers.
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And we are put on by the Great Commission Association of California.
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Today, we've got a really great show for you. We've got part two of a fantastic
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interview with Emmanuel Marsh,
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a counselor from Alabama who specializes in working with pastors and leaders
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who are struggling with burnout and trauma and depression.
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We're also going to be talking about some fantastic apologetics resources with
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Easter coming up, and we've got a review of this really mysterious soda that
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showed up just last week, unannounced,
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sent anonymously to the Every Church Flourishing Podcast Studios.
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It's called Inca Cola, and after the interview, we're going to learn all about
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it and its primary ingredient, which is lemon verbena, whatever in the world that is.
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Well, I want to start out today talking about Easter and resurrection because
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that's just around the corner.
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And I've always thought that Christmas and Easter are the two best times of
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the year for Christians to be ready to engage skeptics, seekers, questioners, etc.
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And I think there's two major primary ways that we believers should answer skeptics,
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answer critics, answer questions, glorify Christ, bear witness to the gospel and obey 1 Peter 3.15,
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which is one of my favorite verses in the Bible, and it says, In your hearts,
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honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone
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who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you, yet do so with gentleness and respect.
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I think there's two major keys to interacting with skeptics and critics and
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questioners and seekers of the faith and obeying that command in 1 Peter 3.15.
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Number one, I think all Christians, not just all smart Christians or all seminary
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Christians or all pastors or whatever.
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But all Christians should be more or less an expert on the resurrection.
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And look, I don't mean like a snooty know-it-all who exudes pride and is quick
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to correct or shame other people.
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I mean somebody who knows and understands all of the issues surrounding the
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resurrection of Jesus in a profoundly deep way that really kind of welcomes
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and invites people to listen.
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When Greg Maddox, the former pitcher for the Atlanta Braves,
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when he talks about pitching, you've got to listen because that guy knows ball.
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I mean, he did not have a tremendously powerful arm, but he had such an incredible
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pitching mind. He was one of the best of all time.
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If you had an opportunity to sit down with cellist Yo-Yo Ma and he was talking
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to you about music and playing the cello,
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that would command your instant respect if you had any interest in that whatsoever,
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because that is a guy who knows his stuff.
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Maybe you're at a burger stand and you see Nick Saban or something,
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and he's talking about football and coaching college football.
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Well, you should listen because there's not a greater expert out there on the
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whole process of coaching college football than Saban.
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And I think we Christians should approach the resurrection of Jesus kind of like this.
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We should be the Greg Maddox, the Yo-Yo Ma, the Nick Saban of the resurrection
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of Jesus, because here's the thing.
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That is the very core, the crux, the center, the foundation of our faith.
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We don't have to memorize every book of the Bible or understand every nuance
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of theology or whatever, but man, we should know about the resurrection of Jesus.
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We should be able to talk about it. We should be able to answer questions about
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it and to do it nimbly and skillfully and winsomely kind of discuss the resurrection,
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even if we're attacked on our belief for that,
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because again, that's what it's all about.
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I don't think our job is to argue somebody into the kingdom of God.
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But our job is to answer questions and to allay doubts and to help skeptics see the truth.
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And what we're going to do after our interview with Emmanuel Marsh is we're
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going to look at eight YouTube and Instagram apologetics or resurrection channels
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that you can watch that'll help you become, you know,
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more or less an expert on the resurrection without going to seminary or even
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opening up even one dry and dusty theological tome.
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Well, that's one way to answer questions from skeptics and critics and seekers of Christianity.
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Here's another one, and it's not very obvious, but the second best way to answer
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those kind of people is to be like Fight Life 40.
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Now, what in the world do I mean by that? Well, I don't know Fight Life 45.
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It's just an anonymous person I encountered online last year.
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They're a person on Reddit.
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And if you've never been to Reddit before, it's probably for the best.
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But Reddit is a top 10 most visited website in the world, very popular.
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It's basically a wretched hive of scum and villainy.
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But it's also a place where people discuss anything and everything for a variety
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of reasons, probably some of them good, some of them not so good.
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I've been a pretty much daily reader of Reddit for literally over 18 years.
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And I do that because as a pastor, it really helps me understand where our society is trending.
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Reddit is the opposite of a Christian website. In fact, it's really in a lot
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of ways anti-Christian. But like I said, it's pretty interesting on the one hand.
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On the other hand, it helps me keep my finger on the pulse of America and the West, so to speak.
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And conversation started with a post that said, I can't help but think anyone
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over the age of 30 who takes the Bible seriously and makes it the foundation
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of their life is weak-minded.
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It was an interesting discussion. I actually think it's been deleted.
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I haven't been able to find it, but I did copy and paste parts of it.
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And the one that I really was struck by was the response to that post by Fight Life.
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And this is what he said, and I quote, I'm reading this verbatim.
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I have a very Christian friend.
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He's the strongest and kindest person I know. He forgives people who do him wrong.
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When I would have lashed out in anger, he's the ideal male role model. He gives to the needy.
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He tries to change people's lives for the better.
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He does marriage counseling, often for free.
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He helps kids get out of bad environments and helps with families of suicide
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victims, donates a lot of money to family so they can give their kids Christmas
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presents and never tells anyone.
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He was also a three-time professional athlete and always says he wants to be
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a shining light in a dark world.
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I don't know this guy. Obviously, he sounds like a superstar in pretty much every sense of the word.
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I'm not saying you and I have to be somebody who just does a billion good deeds
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and is also a three-time professional athlete, whatever that might mean.
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But Fight Life 45's friend kind of gets what the Bible is laying down in a way some Christians miss.
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1 Peter 2.12, for instance, says, conduct yourselves honorably among the Gentiles.
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In other words, among those outside the church, essentially,
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so that when they slander you as evildoers, they will observe your good works
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and will glorify God on the day he visits.
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In other words, friends, we're supposed to be known for our good works.
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It doesn't save us, but it does define us.
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Matthew 5, 16, Jesus says in the same way, let your light shine before others
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so that they may see your good works and glorify your father.
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So we are to be a people, I think, on the one hand, who knows about the resurrection
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and can answer questions and talk about it in the same way Greg Maddox can talk
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about throwing a change up across the outside corner of the plate.
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And we should be people who not so others will notice, but because we are followers
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of Christ, we help, we give, we do good things for the glory of God.
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Those two things combined, a Christ-honoring, humble, gentle.
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Shining light of works plus a deep understanding of the resurrection and ability
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to answer questions about it and give evidence for it.
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Hey, that's an incredibly powerful combination.
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Like I said at the end of the podcast, we're going to give you several resources
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online that are completely free and will help you become an expert on the resurrection
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by just watching some great videos. But first, we've got an excellent interview for you today.
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Not only that, honestly, just thinking ahead, not only do you have a great interview
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that you're about to listen to, and Emmanuel just does a superb job
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We've also got some fantastic guests coming up on the show, if you give me just
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a second to plug them, including Dr.
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Kristen Ferguson, who is a vice president at Gateway Seminary.
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She's an author, an educational specialist, and a pastor's wife.
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And she's also very interested in the intersection between Christian ministry
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and artificial intelligence. So I can't wait to talk with her.
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We also have David Salcido of the Allender Center and Shalom Restored Coaching
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coming up, Pastor Humberto Hernandez.
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David McConnell, who is the pastor of Agape Baptist in Alabama,
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known for his ability to preach longer sermons than anybody else in the South.
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Also, Dr. CJ1 is going to be joining us for a return visit, and Nick and Lisa
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Jenkins, dear friends who are going through a severe extended medical crisis in their family. on.
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They're going to be talking about how the church can better take care of members
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in the midst of trauma and trials.
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And next week, we've got a great panel of pastors and church leaders and GCA director Dr.
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Mike Stewart is going to be my co-host.
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And he and I are going to interview our panel on relationships in ministry,
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the things that make ministry leadership hard, pastoral loneliness and tips
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to increase your longevity and perseverance in ministry.
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But you know what? That's in the future. Right now, today, we're back for part
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two with my good friend, Emmanuel Marsh, who is a professional counselor.
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He specializes in coaching and consulting with pastors and church leaders.
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He is the founder of Marsh Counseling, the author of Five Football Metaphors
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for the Counseling Experience, which is linked on our website.
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Everychurchflourishing.com.
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And because he wrote that article, he's obviously a man after my own heart.
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More importantly, he is a co-founder of the Alabama Center for Pastoral Resilience,
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where he works personally with pastors and church leaders all across the country
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and helps them recover from burnout, trauma, and other ministry difficulties.
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And he is available to meet with you if you need help or consultation.
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Their website is acpr.consulting. That's acpr.consulting.
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Yes, it's not a dot com. It's dot consulting.
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Acpr.consulting. And today, in part two of our interview with Emmanuel,
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we're going to discuss his article about five key factors that lead to burnout
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in church leaders and pastors.
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Let's talk about some of these burnout factors that you've written an excellent
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article that can be found on ACPR.consulting.
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That's ACPR.consulting, five commonly overlooked factors in pastoral burnout.
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So we're going to kind of go through these and talk about them a little bit.
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And I've added one to the list and we'll have it in the show notes at our website,
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everychurchflourishing.com, but you need to go read this article that Emmanuel wrote.
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So the first one you got there talks about boundaries.
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So tell us how weak or unenforced boundaries can contribute to leadership,
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depression, leadership, burnout, leadership struggles.
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Boundaries, and it's one of those terms that comes up a lot in popular media
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and just everyday conversation, but we've kind of, we've kind of misused it.
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It's become to mean what you tell other people, what they can't do with you,
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but boundaries are for you.
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There's a couple of ways to look at it. One, boundaries are where I end and
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other people began and where my responsibility ends and other people's responsibility begins.
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And so if you have boundaries and you don't enforce them, it kind of erodes at your soul.
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Um, because you're in your heart or even you may have stated these boundaries
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you say that these are your boundaries
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but then you don't enforce them
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let's say that you monday monday is my off day if it's not an emergency
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Don't call pastor. Call somebody else. But Monday is a family day.
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I will not pick up the phone unless it's an emergency.
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Well, if you're answering the phone all the time on Monday for non-emergency
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reasons, it's going to chip away at you.
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James talks about the double-minded man is unstable in all his ways.
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When we say one thing and do another, or we claim one thing and act out another
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thing, it destabilizes us because we kind of lie into ourselves.
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These are my boundaries, but you, but if you don't enforce them,
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so a lot of times I'll get too busy and my coach who I go to for guidance or
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even my pastor, they'll say, well, who makes your schedule?
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And that's their way of saying, well, you make your own schedule.
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So if you're overworked or you, that means that you're not being true to yourself
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and to what your boundaries are.
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You got your principles, you have your time, you only get 24 hours in a day,
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you have your schedule. Yeah.
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Or even your values can be a
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boundary. I remember that you wouldn't do weddings on Alabama home games.
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Okay. If you, if you want me to marry you, then it needs to be on.
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These are the dates that I'm willing to marry you.
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There's some truth to that. Yep. Yep. Yeah.
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I don't know if I'm airing dirty laundry.
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No, no. I, so to be clear, I've turned down weddings of people.
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I don't know that weren't church members for Alabama games.
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Is that idolatry? Well, that'll be another episode. but I've definitely done that.
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Now, if it was a church member, I have wedded people during Alabama games.
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And that's just quite frankly, it's not persecution, but it's very hard.
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But that was probably what Alabama, like San Jose State or something. It wasn't a big game.
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It wasn't a big game. No, no, it was not. No.
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Look, I remember when we got married, my wife and I, we said our date,
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it was Auburn, Georgia, and sent the invitations out.
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People were like, hey, you know this Auburn? Hey, I know it's Auburn, Georgia.
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Weddings at 12, games at three. We're good. It's going to be a short ceremony.
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You'll have plenty of time that people don't play about their football.
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No, they don't.
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But pretty soon, if you have all these boundaries and either you keep crossing
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them or not enforcing them or other people keep crossing them,
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pretty soon, you're either going to get really resentful, even though you're
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contributing to it, or you're just going to be worn out.
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So yeah, unenforced boundaries, weak boundaries, that'll get you.
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So how do we know, and you brought up one that's definitely a gray area.
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How do we know the difference between healthy boundaries and healthy?
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Laziness or pickiness?
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Well, I would say that a healthy boundary is one that comes out of one thought and principled.
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It's not about the anxiety of the moment.
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It's not designed to try to tell other people what to do.
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It's designed as a place of, so for instance, let's say I've got a really big yard.
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This kid wants to cut my grass, but he didn't really,
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there's no fence, there's no boundary markers and so my yard is
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right next to the neighbors and he's like you want me to cut all that that's
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a lot of it's like well no i don't want you to cut all of that there there's
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here's the boundary line this is all this is the part that you're responsible
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for and they're responsible for their part you don't have to cut everything
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you just cut within these well that frees them up like okay
00:17:51.407 --> 00:17:55.627
Knowing what you're responsible for and what you're not responsible for and
00:17:55.627 --> 00:18:00.587
being able to make decisions based on your principles and values, that's the key.
00:18:00.807 --> 00:18:03.187
I don't see clients on Friday. That's a boundary.
00:18:03.667 --> 00:18:06.267
I've had many people go, well, I'll pay you extra. I'll put,
00:18:06.407 --> 00:18:08.147
no, I don't see clients on Friday.
00:18:08.147 --> 00:18:14.667
Now, when I will see a client on Friday is if I mess up an appointment or I
00:18:14.667 --> 00:18:19.267
need to reschedule, then I will make up an appointment on Friday if that's because
00:18:19.267 --> 00:18:21.527
I'm the one who made it made the change.
00:18:21.687 --> 00:18:26.087
And so I'll make it convenient for the client. But it's a boundary and only
00:18:26.087 --> 00:18:30.247
violated with some thought and out of a principle.
00:18:30.247 --> 00:18:35.227
And the principle is, hey, if I mess up something on my end or I need to reschedule,
00:18:35.427 --> 00:18:40.407
then I'll open my calendar up a little bit more than if something gets screwed up on your end.
00:18:40.847 --> 00:18:43.147
So that's the difference is where is it coming from?
00:18:43.567 --> 00:18:48.307
Yeah. Okay. That's awesome. Well, let's talk about the emotional roller coaster,
00:18:48.587 --> 00:18:57.547
kind of the dangers of us getting positive emotions and cheer from how other people see us.
00:18:57.707 --> 00:18:59.867
Talk to us about that. Yeah.
00:19:00.047 --> 00:19:04.247
And this one is, it's different for everybody. There's this idea that we leave
00:19:04.247 --> 00:19:06.067
home with a certain amount of,
00:19:06.307 --> 00:19:10.967
I don't know, emotional sensitivity to certain things or relational sensitivity,
00:19:10.987 --> 00:19:14.827
maybe that we just leave home out of our, out of our relationship with our parents
00:19:14.827 --> 00:19:18.327
and things are just, we didn't get enough of, or we got too much of,
00:19:18.427 --> 00:19:20.167
and that we carry that into other relationships.
00:19:20.707 --> 00:19:25.227
So for instance, if you're a person who needs a lot of attention,
00:19:26.435 --> 00:19:30.055
To feel good about themselves. Well, that could lead to burnout in a couple of ways.
00:19:30.255 --> 00:19:34.375
One, if you don't get attention by certain people, maybe you feel some kind
00:19:34.375 --> 00:19:36.675
of way, maybe it kind of takes the wind out of your sails.
00:19:36.975 --> 00:19:40.395
Maybe you don't let other people preach because that's your pulpit and you don't
00:19:40.395 --> 00:19:44.335
want anybody else to get your attention and you just need to be in front of people all the time.
00:19:44.655 --> 00:19:48.775
And that can weigh you out in general. Oh yeah. Or you need a lot of approval
00:19:49.295 --> 00:19:51.695
and you need people to tell you good job, good sermon.
00:19:51.855 --> 00:19:55.775
If you don't get a good job or good sermon, it kind of takes the wind out of
00:19:55.775 --> 00:20:02.095
your sails and needing other people or even wanting other people to fill in
00:20:02.095 --> 00:20:03.895
our emotional deficits.
00:20:04.775 --> 00:20:09.935
That's a good way to get high on the mountain and then come crashing down right after that.
00:20:10.215 --> 00:20:13.935
What if no one tells you a good sermon after you preach and you thought it was
00:20:13.935 --> 00:20:15.795
really good, but nobody says great sermon.
00:20:15.995 --> 00:20:20.035
How much do you need that? How do you measure what a good sermon is?
00:20:20.215 --> 00:20:24.055
It goes back to these values and principles. You know, I measure a good sermon
00:20:24.055 --> 00:20:26.415
by, was I faithful to the text?
00:20:26.595 --> 00:20:28.695
Did I do the appropriate amount of study?
00:20:28.915 --> 00:20:32.875
And that's pretty much it. Did I do something that I thought pleased God?
00:20:33.355 --> 00:20:38.735
Now, I like affirmation. I like when people say, hey, that was really good.
00:20:38.895 --> 00:20:42.615
That really blessed me. But I'm not going to be crushed if I don't get it.
00:20:42.915 --> 00:20:48.055
And so the roller coaster is how much of these emotional sensitivities kind
00:20:48.055 --> 00:20:53.015
of affect our ministries. And you kind of have to know how you're wired to really
00:20:53.015 --> 00:20:54.495
understand that part of it.
00:20:54.855 --> 00:20:57.555
But attention, there tend to be four major ones.
00:20:58.115 --> 00:21:01.895
Attention, approval, meeting expectations.
00:21:02.958 --> 00:21:07.938
And a sensitivity to distress, the distress of other people. Yeah.
00:21:08.318 --> 00:21:13.078
And so you need to be the hero. And every time the phone rings or every time
00:21:13.078 --> 00:21:17.918
you got to go, I have to do all the hospital visits. I can't let anybody else, that'll weigh you out.
00:21:18.098 --> 00:21:24.918
So attention, approval, expectations, distress, those are four types of sensitivities
00:21:24.918 --> 00:21:27.558
that'll get you on that emotional rollercoaster because when they're there,
00:21:27.698 --> 00:21:32.578
your functioning is great. And when they're not there, you take a different functioning.
00:21:32.738 --> 00:21:37.698
So how much of my functioning is a tied to other people's thinking of me?
00:21:38.318 --> 00:21:44.018
Absolutely. Yeah. And the thing you're saying, I think pastors more than other
00:21:44.018 --> 00:21:47.998
professions, based on just my anecdotal knowledge,
00:21:48.238 --> 00:21:54.798
are maybe a little more wired to seek and need approval and affirmation.
00:21:55.218 --> 00:21:59.078
And of course, the danger of being on an emotional rollercoaster like that and
00:21:59.078 --> 00:22:02.678
an approval roller coaster is it'll wear you out.
00:22:02.778 --> 00:22:05.958
If it bottoms out and you go through a season where you're not getting a lot
00:22:05.958 --> 00:22:10.098
of approval, that can lead to burnout and quitting really quick.
00:22:10.218 --> 00:22:15.738
But as you say, we're not in it to please people, the verse you quoted,
00:22:15.898 --> 00:22:17.958
we're in it to please the Lord.
00:22:18.218 --> 00:22:21.398
And that doesn't mean we're a jerk to people, church leaders,
00:22:21.638 --> 00:22:24.218
but it does mean we have one focus.
00:22:24.378 --> 00:22:31.218
I need to virtue signal for a minute here and just say, I've been using AI pretty
00:22:31.218 --> 00:22:33.838
much ever since it came out because it's very interesting to me.
00:22:33.978 --> 00:22:38.958
I don't use it for sermons. I don't even really use it to research sermons.
00:22:38.978 --> 00:22:43.478
I do occasionally use it for school-related things. I don't use it to write
00:22:43.478 --> 00:22:46.218
my emails or really anything I send out.
00:22:46.418 --> 00:22:51.638
But I have had about 10 in two years.
00:22:51.858 --> 00:22:55.138
And I know this is weird. That's why I'm saying I don't do it a lot because
00:22:55.138 --> 00:22:59.838
I think it's too weird to do a lot. But I've had about maybe 10 is a lot, maybe eight.
00:23:00.518 --> 00:23:04.138
Deep conversations with ChatGPT.
00:23:04.938 --> 00:23:11.918
And each one of them, I've kind of walked away semi-impressed at what's going on.
00:23:12.078 --> 00:23:18.678
And I recently, and I even was so struck by what it said that I sent it to David.
00:23:18.678 --> 00:23:23.718
I recently had a conversation with ChatGPT about some of these issues kind of
00:23:23.718 --> 00:23:26.338
getting ready for some of the upcoming podcasts.
00:23:26.378 --> 00:23:32.338
And one of the things it said is that pastors need to watch out for,
00:23:32.518 --> 00:23:36.818
quote, subtle ego attachment to fruitfulness.
00:23:37.518 --> 00:23:40.938
And I thought about that. I was like, what does it mean by that?
00:23:41.038 --> 00:23:44.738
So I just said, so what does that mean? What do you mean by that? This is what I said.
00:23:45.118 --> 00:23:49.178
Maybe it's just me. Maybe I'm the only one that thinks this is really insightful.
00:23:49.198 --> 00:23:54.718
But I walked away a little bit stunned because this is a weakness I have,
00:23:54.718 --> 00:24:00.698
and I would not have been able to articulate it nearly as clearly as ChatGBT did.
00:24:00.838 --> 00:24:04.398
So I'm about to read it because it's very similar to what you're talking about.
00:24:04.578 --> 00:24:10.238
It said, in ministry, subtle ego attachment to fruitfulness can become tricky
00:24:10.238 --> 00:24:12.758
because fruitfulness is a good thing.
00:24:13.198 --> 00:24:19.558
Wanting people to be helped, changed, saved, strengthened, or awakened is a holy desire.
00:24:19.638 --> 00:24:27.198
But the ego, your ego, can quietly attach itself to that desire so that God's
00:24:27.198 --> 00:24:31.818
glory and my need to matter get braided together.
00:24:32.576 --> 00:24:36.396
Then, discouragement is not only about love for the mission,
00:24:36.396 --> 00:24:38.976
it's also about a bruised self.
00:24:39.216 --> 00:24:44.476
And he says, the healthy counterweight is something like, I'm called to faithfulness,
00:24:44.616 --> 00:24:46.456
not omniscience about results.
00:24:46.636 --> 00:24:50.076
Fruit matters, but I don't control most fruit.
00:24:50.536 --> 00:24:56.996
Obscure faithfulness still counts. The value of my work is not proved by scale.
00:24:57.076 --> 00:25:02.836
My identity is not effective servant, but beloved man in Christ.
00:25:03.156 --> 00:25:06.796
And I'll just be honest with you, that's weird hearing that kind of thing from
00:25:06.796 --> 00:25:10.896
an AI, and I don't know what to do with it, but I think it's mostly spot on.
00:25:10.996 --> 00:25:14.976
Paul Tripp has a quote where he says that the kingdom of self does a great job
00:25:14.976 --> 00:25:16.776
as masquerading as the kingdom of God.
00:25:17.076 --> 00:25:17.516
Yes.
00:25:18.096 --> 00:25:23.976
Yes, it does. And so it gets really hard to separate productivity because if
00:25:23.976 --> 00:25:26.776
you're productive, it's like, look, I'm serving, but it's really,
00:25:27.396 --> 00:25:30.016
I just need to stay busy to feel good about myself.
00:25:30.596 --> 00:25:35.476
I've had similar revelations where I was actually, there was a point where I was just
00:25:36.122 --> 00:25:40.262
I had said yes to too many things and all of those things came due at the same time.
00:25:40.402 --> 00:25:43.242
And I was just like, I'll never do this to myself again. Once I get,
00:25:43.402 --> 00:25:47.082
I can't wait to have nothing to do except for just in my normal.
00:25:47.502 --> 00:25:51.642
And guess what? That time came where I didn't have much to do and I was miserable.
00:25:52.682 --> 00:25:55.682
And I was like, okay, so there's something else going on here.
00:25:56.222 --> 00:26:01.722
But a lot of times what we don't realize is that anxiety, we use work to calm
00:26:01.722 --> 00:26:05.002
ourselves down. You know, I realized like, oh, okay, I thought I'd feel better
00:26:05.002 --> 00:26:08.402
if I didn't have anything to do. And I actually felt worse.
00:26:08.622 --> 00:26:09.762
It's like, I need a new project.
00:26:10.522 --> 00:26:15.162
So it's really sneaky, especially in our culture where there's this kind of
00:26:15.162 --> 00:26:17.982
idolatry of productivity.
00:26:18.422 --> 00:26:18.722
Yep.
00:26:19.702 --> 00:26:22.302
And like somebody asked you, how are you doing? Oh, man, I'm busy.
00:26:22.722 --> 00:26:27.102
And I have to stop myself. And I'm not saying that to try to be impressed.
00:26:27.262 --> 00:26:29.562
I'm saying that because I really am busy, but it's become like a flex.
00:26:30.042 --> 00:26:36.202
Yes, it has become a flex. Number three, cut off an isolation as factors in burnout.
00:26:36.382 --> 00:26:40.642
And we've kind of talked around this quite a bit, that lack of relationships
00:26:40.642 --> 00:26:45.842
in genuine community is dangerous for anybody, especially pastors and church leaders.
00:26:46.082 --> 00:26:49.702
So talk about that a little bit, Emmanuel, and in the middle of it,
00:26:49.942 --> 00:26:54.582
answer the question that we've actually talked about on this podcast a couple of times here lately.
00:26:54.822 --> 00:27:00.842
Can pastors find deep friendships in the church they pastor?
00:27:00.842 --> 00:27:05.382
So let's just, in general, how can isolation lead to burnout?
00:27:05.862 --> 00:27:11.242
Well, God created us to be communal creatures. It's not good for man to be alone.
00:27:11.762 --> 00:27:17.282
The church is the gathering of the called out ones. And so we're social beings.
00:27:18.118 --> 00:27:22.858
But what happens is when we don't feel particularly good or we get depressed
00:27:22.858 --> 00:27:27.538
or we get anxious, one of the, it's not everybody's go-to move,
00:27:27.718 --> 00:27:30.598
but one of the most popular is to isolate. Yeah.
00:27:30.858 --> 00:27:35.198
And you may not physically isolate from others, but conversations are shallow.
00:27:35.878 --> 00:27:40.598
How are you doing? I'm good. You don't open up to anyone. And so what happens
00:27:40.598 --> 00:27:46.358
is all that stuff that you just are holding on to and you can't be healed, you know, confessors.
00:27:46.358 --> 00:27:49.798
And I'm not even talking about sin, but you can say confess your sins one to
00:27:49.798 --> 00:27:51.378
another so you may be healed.
00:27:51.718 --> 00:27:57.358
There is something that is healing about talking to another person about what is going on with us.
00:27:57.558 --> 00:28:00.378
That's just the way that God made us.
00:28:01.358 --> 00:28:05.498
Isolation. Here's another way to think about it. There's less place for the
00:28:05.498 --> 00:28:09.158
anxiety to go if we don't have anybody to spread it around to.
00:28:09.358 --> 00:28:15.238
And so as social beings, social connections dilute our anxiety.
00:28:15.558 --> 00:28:21.378
And so the more close connections we have, the less anxious we typically are.
00:28:21.738 --> 00:28:25.998
And so, for instance, if somebody comes into my office and they're just the
00:28:25.998 --> 00:28:30.778
most anxious person I've ever seen, I already know that that person is probably
00:28:30.778 --> 00:28:34.078
not well-connected, not in community,
00:28:34.638 --> 00:28:38.998
probably has a lot of cutoff of people they stop talking to in their family
00:28:38.998 --> 00:28:41.018
or friends or in their church.
00:28:41.812 --> 00:28:46.072
Because the anxiety has nowhere to go. You just have to hold on to it.
00:28:46.312 --> 00:28:51.232
And that goes the same for grief, negative emotion, or something that we experience.
00:28:51.392 --> 00:28:55.752
If they didn't have anywhere to go, just sit with it. And you can't metabolize it.
00:28:56.092 --> 00:29:01.092
You can't digest it. You can't process it as well as you could if you had other
00:29:01.092 --> 00:29:03.092
people who were bearing that burden with you.
00:29:03.592 --> 00:29:10.152
Yeah, that's a great observation that when we're alone, that anxiety has nowhere
00:29:10.152 --> 00:29:14.812
to go. And often it won't just kind of naturally dissipate.
00:29:15.192 --> 00:29:19.932
We're called to bear one another's burdens. And I think that might be one of
00:29:19.932 --> 00:29:28.052
our early warning signs that you're headed for burnout is if you are isolating yourself just too much.
00:29:28.172 --> 00:29:30.892
I can think of a few times. It's not happened a lot.
00:29:31.012 --> 00:29:34.352
I can think of a few times after I preached a message or taught or whatever,
00:29:34.572 --> 00:29:43.512
that either I felt like that was such a clunker or I was just drained from doing it.
00:29:43.612 --> 00:29:46.972
I sort of put everything I had into it. I remember one time at Agape,
00:29:47.152 --> 00:29:48.032
I got through preaching.
00:29:48.172 --> 00:29:52.912
I just found a dark room upstairs, no lights on, and I just sat in the corner
00:29:52.912 --> 00:29:54.572
for about 15 or 20 minutes.
00:29:54.772 --> 00:29:57.532
I don't know that that's unhealthy.
00:29:57.832 --> 00:30:04.452
Jesus had the habit of withdrawing to lonely places for a time, a day, a night.
00:30:04.652 --> 00:30:10.212
But when we leaders and we people in the body of Christ just in general kind
00:30:10.212 --> 00:30:17.172
of make that our steady state habit, we only fellowship the absolute minimum we possibly can.
00:30:17.372 --> 00:30:19.532
Otherwise, we're isolating ourselves.
00:30:19.832 --> 00:30:25.472
We're just going to build up dangerous amounts of pressure, anxiety, pain.
00:30:25.672 --> 00:30:29.912
I think that's a great observation that when you see somebody that's struggling
00:30:29.912 --> 00:30:34.092
with a lot of that stuff as a, as a physician kind of counselor,
00:30:34.332 --> 00:30:37.532
you know, Hey, this is, this is probably rooted in isolation.
00:30:38.302 --> 00:30:42.362
Yeah, Jesus, you know, he didn't have a congregation per se,
00:30:42.462 --> 00:30:47.182
but he had the 70 disciples and then he had the 12 and then he had the three.
00:30:47.442 --> 00:30:52.962
And he let the three in on stuff that the 12, the rest of the 12 didn't know.
00:30:53.122 --> 00:30:57.222
And the 12 got, they got more knowledge in the 70.
00:30:57.742 --> 00:31:02.462
And so I think that's a good model that, you know, can you have friends in the church?
00:31:02.602 --> 00:31:06.802
I think so. but it will probably be few, and they'll probably have to be very
00:31:06.802 --> 00:31:09.282
mature, trusted people.
00:31:09.562 --> 00:31:14.622
I don't know that you can do it with everybody. The 70 didn't get access to Jesus like the 12 did.
00:31:14.882 --> 00:31:20.902
Yeah, so that's a great point. So Jesus himself modeled this idea of having
00:31:20.902 --> 00:31:25.242
an inner circle, which I think in a dangerous way could turn into a click,
00:31:25.422 --> 00:31:27.022
but that's not what was going on there.
00:31:27.022 --> 00:31:33.842
I think what was going on there is a recognition that we share our deepest things
00:31:33.842 --> 00:31:40.302
with a small amount of people, a non-zero amount of people, but a small amount of people.
00:31:40.462 --> 00:31:43.362
And as you say, Jesus modeled that for us.
00:31:43.562 --> 00:31:47.442
The benefit of being in the church, the benefit of having connections,
00:31:47.782 --> 00:31:53.102
maybe not super deep, but more than shallow, is that if something comes up,
00:31:53.102 --> 00:31:57.322
there may be another enough people in that congregation to be,
00:31:57.462 --> 00:32:00.722
well, you know, that didn't sound like the chase I know. I don't believe that's true.
00:32:00.962 --> 00:32:04.802
So if the rumor gets spread or, or you make a decision that people don't agree
00:32:04.802 --> 00:32:09.282
with or like, yeah, I know that decision is, but it's chase.
00:32:09.502 --> 00:32:12.802
I, you know, that's not the chase. I know he really wants what's best for this
00:32:12.802 --> 00:32:16.622
church. And he's not just throwing ideas out there to see where it sticks.
00:32:17.082 --> 00:32:22.282
And so those people become your allies in the congregation because they know
00:32:22.282 --> 00:32:27.042
you well enough so if they hear something, that doesn't sound like Chase.
00:32:27.502 --> 00:32:31.042
So it could be, if you're playing the long game, that could be a benefit because
00:32:31.042 --> 00:32:35.062
you have a lot of people who know you well enough to kind of
00:32:35.952 --> 00:32:39.312
go to bat for you in rooms that you aren't in. Great point.
00:32:40.672 --> 00:32:44.652
Every pastor should play the long game. I don't think we do enough,
00:32:44.852 --> 00:32:49.352
but there's so many studies about how the more effective ministry happens when
00:32:49.352 --> 00:32:50.932
you've been somewhere for a long time.
00:32:51.172 --> 00:32:54.232
People can't get to know you in two or three years.
00:32:54.432 --> 00:33:00.492
Okay. Let's talk about over-functioning for others as a factor in burnout.
00:33:00.752 --> 00:33:03.292
What is over-functioning and how does it lead to burnout?
00:33:03.812 --> 00:33:09.612
Yeah. Over-functioning is a The counseling word, it's one side of a reciprocal
00:33:09.612 --> 00:33:16.912
relationship, and it is when we get anxious or stressed or worked up about something,
00:33:17.252 --> 00:33:22.932
some of us will take on more responsibility for others than we should.
00:33:23.432 --> 00:33:27.232
And the reciprocal nature is that if we're over-functioning,
00:33:27.292 --> 00:33:30.312
that means somebody is taking on less responsibility for themselves.
00:33:31.072 --> 00:33:36.372
A basic example is, so I know that I'm stressed when I get really directive
00:33:36.372 --> 00:33:39.292
with my wife on things that she already knows how to do.
00:33:39.532 --> 00:33:43.972
About a month ago, I caught myself, she's making my daughter lunch and my daughter
00:33:43.972 --> 00:33:45.292
wanted a grilled cheese sandwich.
00:33:45.832 --> 00:33:50.632
And I come into the kitchen and I'm like trying to tell her how to make a grilled cheese sandwich.
00:33:51.092 --> 00:33:54.952
And I'm like, my wife's a confident, educated woman.
00:33:55.172 --> 00:33:58.992
She can figure out where the butter goes and where the cheese goes and the grilled
00:33:58.992 --> 00:34:01.712
cheese. But I found myself trying to, that's not how you, and I was like,
00:34:01.832 --> 00:34:04.312
oh, I must be really anxious right now. I was about to tell you how to make
00:34:04.312 --> 00:34:05.292
a grilled cheese sandwich.
00:34:06.672 --> 00:34:11.052
But we need control to feel, to calm down. And the other person,
00:34:11.172 --> 00:34:13.572
they get to calm down by having less control.
00:34:14.512 --> 00:34:19.912
Pastors are uniquely susceptible to this because one, as you pointed out early,
00:34:20.272 --> 00:34:23.412
a large percentage of pastors already are kind of people pleasers.
00:34:24.250 --> 00:34:30.370
Just wired. They want people to think well of them. And so you just do too much.
00:34:30.830 --> 00:34:34.530
There's a personality part of it too. Like I'm kind of a know-it-all.
00:34:34.810 --> 00:34:38.290
Like if you're not good at anything but being smart, which is with me,
00:34:38.370 --> 00:34:42.350
I wasn't athletic. I didn't really have any, any, I didn't play an instrument.
00:34:42.570 --> 00:34:45.690
I didn't have any, you know, marketable talents. I was just smart.
00:34:46.370 --> 00:34:49.630
And the gift of that is you're smart, but the curse of that is you got to let
00:34:49.630 --> 00:34:53.750
everybody know how smart you are. And so you get really comfortable thinking
00:34:53.750 --> 00:34:56.550
that you know everything or telling people what they should do,
00:34:56.570 --> 00:34:58.910
or you should try this, you should do this.
00:34:59.250 --> 00:35:02.510
And with pastors, people come to pastors for their wisdom.
00:35:02.990 --> 00:35:08.670
And that part of the job is dispensing wisdom. So it's not that you shouldn't do that, but.
00:35:09.279 --> 00:35:10.519
You shouldn't do it quickly.
00:35:10.999 --> 00:35:14.579
And so ask questions. I don't know. What have you tried before?
00:35:15.319 --> 00:35:19.759
Who else is worried about this? What happened when you tried to solve it on your own?
00:35:20.059 --> 00:35:23.539
Who else do you know who might be a resource to you in this?
00:35:23.699 --> 00:35:28.339
Instead of just jumping in all the time and coming to the rescue,
00:35:28.339 --> 00:35:33.039
the more you put on the cape, you know, the more you're just going to wear yourself out.
00:35:33.299 --> 00:35:35.699
Because one, you're training your congregation. congregation,
00:35:36.359 --> 00:35:41.119
you're training your congregation to need you more than they biblically should.
00:35:41.379 --> 00:35:46.199
And to need you more than they need Jesus. Yeah. Which is a huge danger.
00:35:46.899 --> 00:35:50.979
Helping people find their strength, helping people work out their own theology.
00:35:51.159 --> 00:35:52.259
Well, what's your thing? You know,
00:35:52.319 --> 00:35:54.699
somebody comes to you, asks you a Bible question, like, well, have you?
00:35:55.159 --> 00:35:58.859
You could answer it, which is nothing wrong with that. But you could also say,
00:35:58.979 --> 00:36:04.859
well, go read, you know, Matthew 12 and tell me what you think about it.
00:36:04.859 --> 00:36:07.439
Let's, you know, let's meet for coffee and you tell me what you,
00:36:07.859 --> 00:36:09.879
you know, did you find your answer there?
00:36:10.539 --> 00:36:14.119
But wanting people where to find the answer, finally help people use their own
00:36:14.119 --> 00:36:17.939
resources instead of just jumping in to save everyone.
00:36:18.579 --> 00:36:22.679
Teaching people how to fish rather than giving them a fish every time they come and ask for one.
00:36:23.119 --> 00:36:24.879
Yeah, yeah. Because.
00:36:25.627 --> 00:36:30.187
The reason we get so sucked in is because we get anxious for people.
00:36:30.367 --> 00:36:34.807
We worry about them. And so to calm ourselves down, this is what it really comes down to.
00:36:35.287 --> 00:36:40.407
I'm going to calm myself down by telling you the answer or make myself feel
00:36:40.407 --> 00:36:47.327
good by giving you the answer or being way too available, answering the phone every time you call.
00:36:47.707 --> 00:36:52.027
And that's going to differ about pastors. Some pastors are very relatable and
00:36:52.027 --> 00:36:56.307
very available, and it doesn't bother them at all. I'm an introvert.
00:36:56.547 --> 00:36:58.827
I need some time to recharge.
00:36:59.667 --> 00:37:05.967
I can't be that available. I just couldn't do it and survive.
00:37:07.147 --> 00:37:11.727
Overfunctioning is just taking on too much responsibility from an anxious place. Yeah.
00:37:12.127 --> 00:37:18.207
Now, Jesus, he took on a responsibility for our sins, but it wasn't from an
00:37:18.207 --> 00:37:22.687
anxious place. It was a principled place, you know?
00:37:23.027 --> 00:37:28.267
He knew what he was doing. He thought about it. He prayed about it. He sweat blood about it.
00:37:28.427 --> 00:37:31.827
And he made a decision. That's not what we do.
00:37:32.527 --> 00:37:36.147
For us, it's usually coming out of our own worry or anxiety or need to feel
00:37:36.147 --> 00:37:40.027
a certain way or be seen a certain way that we tend to over-function.
00:37:40.707 --> 00:37:43.947
And I was having my daughter. She had a big homework assignment.00:37:44.347 --> 00:37:48.387
And she wants me to give her answers. And I'm like, nope, I don't,00:37:48.387 --> 00:37:50.587
you know. Read this, you know?00:37:51.007 --> 00:37:56.267
She's like, well, how should I start this paper? Like, I'm not telling you. What do you want to say?00:37:56.627 --> 00:38:00.547
And making her, you're like, you're 10. You can come up with your own sentences.00:38:01.127 --> 00:38:06.627
But making her struggle and do things herself, which I've done from a young00:38:06.627 --> 00:38:11.587
age, instead of me worried about her grade.00:38:11.727 --> 00:38:15.227
And I see some parents do when I was a teacher, parents who do that.00:38:16.418 --> 00:38:19.298
Your mother did this homework. You don't even know this word,00:38:19.298 --> 00:38:23.038
you know, because they're so anxious about the grade they jump in.00:38:23.198 --> 00:38:28.838
And so just seeing what people are capable of before you jump in. Jesus would do this.00:38:29.158 --> 00:38:34.458
Somebody will come up to them and they'll quote a Bible verse or how do you read it?00:38:34.538 --> 00:38:35.758
How do you read it? Yeah, exactly.00:38:35.978 --> 00:38:39.658
Yeah. Just see what people are capable of before you jump in, you know.00:38:40.118 --> 00:38:42.678
There's a lot of wisdom there. That's great. That's great.00:38:42.678 --> 00:38:42.718
Right.00:38:43.478 --> 00:38:46.858
That was worth the cost of listening to the whole podcast.00:38:47.198 --> 00:38:49.958
All right. So in the last couple of minutes we have left, I'm going to throw00:38:49.958 --> 00:38:55.938
out one that's not in your article, but I think is also could be a potential factor in burnout.00:38:56.118 --> 00:38:59.238
And you can tell me what you think about it right now. A lot of people are talking00:38:59.238 --> 00:39:06.958
about processed foods and the dangers of processed foods. They give you pleasure,00:39:07.198 --> 00:39:10.058
they give you calories, but they don't give you health.00:39:10.258 --> 00:39:16.018
And so I think there's some ways where pastors and church leaders right now00:39:16.018 --> 00:39:24.178
are finding community and scratching the itch of isolation while not getting00:39:24.178 --> 00:39:27.498
the health of real godly community.00:39:27.498 --> 00:39:32.598
And I think part of that is online groups like Facebook groups.00:39:32.598 --> 00:39:35.418
I'm part of several groups for pastors.00:39:35.618 --> 00:39:39.198
And I know some people find really good, solid community groups.00:39:40.004 --> 00:39:42.484
Ish in some of those groups,00:39:42.724 --> 00:39:46.824
But it's not real. I mean, I'm not saying it's not helpful. I've been part of those groups for years.00:39:47.524 --> 00:39:54.664
Reddit groups, huge kind of connection point for people, but not necessarily00:39:54.664 --> 00:39:59.004
healthy like real food and something I referred to earlier.00:39:59.004 --> 00:40:06.724
I know a lot of people are having these deep extended daily chats with chat00:40:06.724 --> 00:40:10.144
GPT or Gemini or Anthropics Claude,00:40:10.264 --> 00:40:16.384
and they're coming away with their need for connection seemingly met.00:40:16.404 --> 00:40:22.944
But I think if you are a leader or a pastor and you're investing a lot of time00:40:22.944 --> 00:40:29.684
in those kind of relationships rather than real relationships, mostly face-to-face,00:40:29.884 --> 00:40:32.024
could be Zoom, could be, you know,00:40:32.564 --> 00:40:38.304
but as long as it's, you're talking to a real person, I think that's much healthier.00:40:38.304 --> 00:40:44.784
And I think investing too much in online community could be the equivalent of00:40:44.784 --> 00:40:46.984
eating too much processed food. What do you think?00:40:47.664 --> 00:40:51.024
Yeah, there's definitely something to that. I'm in a couple of Facebook groups00:40:51.024 --> 00:40:55.624
for counselors, uh, myself and, you know, I use it as a tool.00:40:55.784 --> 00:40:58.444
It's a good place to get some resources and referrals.00:40:59.350 --> 00:41:05.370
But if you're using that as your social life, I think that's a poor substitute for it.00:41:05.450 --> 00:41:08.610
One of the things we do, we do several things at the center.00:41:08.930 --> 00:41:12.130
We do one-on-one stuff. We do workshops for churches.00:41:12.470 --> 00:41:17.570
The kind of big tentpole thing is our cohort. There's nine months.00:41:17.890 --> 00:41:20.990
We meet once a month for eight out of those nine months.00:41:21.190 --> 00:41:26.270
Where pastors are in a room for the whole day, eight hours. and there's lecture,00:41:26.550 --> 00:41:31.470
there's conversation, there's some spiritual formation. There's a whole bunch00:41:31.470 --> 00:41:33.050
of stuff going on in those eight hours.00:41:33.370 --> 00:41:36.930
And the pastors, that's one of their, they look forward to it.00:41:36.990 --> 00:41:41.830
It's like, I don't get to be in a room with people and talk this freely and00:41:41.830 --> 00:41:46.750
this openly, especially with other pastors who are going through similar things00:41:46.750 --> 00:41:49.370
or have similar ideas or even different ideas.00:41:49.630 --> 00:41:53.910
That's the highlight of it, the community aspect of it. and we've been asked,00:41:54.210 --> 00:41:56.570
Hey, could you do one of these online?00:41:57.230 --> 00:42:03.350
We've thought about it and we may end up doing it online, but right now I think is incarnation.00:42:03.810 --> 00:42:10.350
You know, there's something about being in the flesh that you lose digitally.00:42:10.630 --> 00:42:13.550
You just like, this is better than nothing talking on zoom.00:42:13.910 --> 00:42:17.530
Yes. You know, cause you're, you're a real person at least somebody I know and00:42:17.530 --> 00:42:22.330
I can see your face, but there's something about incarnation that is,00:42:22.450 --> 00:42:27.970
different than online friendships or online interactions that you just,00:42:27.970 --> 00:42:29.610
You just can't replicate it.00:42:29.750 --> 00:42:35.090
It's just God made, made us that way. So it's a tool.00:42:36.090 --> 00:42:38.930
I'll be curious, you know, if somebody is spending all the time on that,00:42:39.050 --> 00:42:41.990
are there other relationships that they're shying away from? Yeah.00:42:42.630 --> 00:42:46.850
Because it is a lot easier to, to be online than it is to talk to your wife.00:42:48.210 --> 00:42:49.870
Can be absolutely.00:42:49.870 --> 00:42:55.030
Talk to a particular person in your congregation and so is that a substitute00:42:55.030 --> 00:42:58.190
or that avoidance of a relationship in another area00:42:58.927 --> 00:43:06.047
Well, as we finish this up, I know you guys do, as you say, the in-person gatherings00:43:06.047 --> 00:43:11.367
of pastors, but you also do consulting in person and online.00:43:11.687 --> 00:43:15.887
So real quick, remind everybody of your website, how they can get in touch with you.00:43:16.047 --> 00:43:20.107
Some pastors might be interested in any of the services you offer.00:43:20.327 --> 00:43:25.847
So let us know how we can reach the ACPR and Emanuel Marsh.00:43:26.227 --> 00:43:32.647
Www.acpr.consulting.com was way too expensive. So we just00:43:32.647 --> 00:43:33.327
Do a little.00:43:33.327 --> 00:43:39.687
Consulting and Alabama's in the name, but we've got clients that we work with00:43:39.687 --> 00:43:45.147
all over the place, New York, California, Florida, Arkansas, Georgia.00:43:45.887 --> 00:43:51.067
And so the cohort is local, but everything else, you know, we'll travel to some00:43:51.067 --> 00:43:54.187
places and do some travel for some workshops and things like that.00:43:54.627 --> 00:44:01.147
And you can reach me at Emanuel at acpr.consulting, but everything's contacts00:44:01.147 --> 00:44:02.687
on the website as well. Okay.00:44:02.827 --> 00:44:07.687
Well, all of that will be in the show notes for the show, links to the ACPR00:44:07.687 --> 00:44:10.927
website and Emanuel's contact information.00:44:10.947 --> 00:44:15.027
Hey man, this has been an awesome conversation. I'm not just saying that.00:44:15.027 --> 00:44:17.107
It's been very good for me.00:44:17.227 --> 00:44:19.987
It's been great to see you. I appreciate your wisdom.00:44:20.227 --> 00:44:22.987
I feel like if somebody's going to listen to this whole episode,00:44:22.987 --> 00:44:28.467
they are going to get a ton of healthy, really wise counsel.00:44:28.707 --> 00:44:34.887
And I appreciate you giving us a little over an hour of your time to record and to share, man.00:44:35.087 --> 00:44:40.047
Thank you so much. And may the Lord bless the ministry of the ACPR.00:44:40.287 --> 00:44:43.807
I appreciate it, man. Anytime you want me to come on, I'm happy to talk.00:44:44.047 --> 00:44:47.187
Well, we'll do it again. Absolutely. And I can't wait till we do.00:44:47.447 --> 00:44:52.267
All right. Good luck. And I do listen to the podcast, by the way. So good luck on the...00:44:52.770 --> 00:44:54.550
The podcast. Well, thanks, man.00:44:54.670 --> 00:44:59.570
I appreciate you listening. Okay. I tell you what, I loved that interview.00:44:59.770 --> 00:45:04.770
Right after I was done, I just sat back and felt like that was one of my favorite00:45:04.770 --> 00:45:07.090
interviews that we've done on this show.00:45:07.290 --> 00:45:13.370
And look, I was like batting practice pitcher throwing 50 mile per hour fastballs00:45:13.370 --> 00:45:16.310
to Mike Judge or whatever and watching him blast it out of the park.00:45:16.430 --> 00:45:21.030
I really thought Emmanuel did a fantastic job. And if you really paid attention00:45:21.030 --> 00:45:23.970
to that, I think you will be edified.00:45:24.210 --> 00:45:30.010
Somehow, someway, we got a package in the mail here at the Every Church Flourishing00:45:30.010 --> 00:45:32.710
Podcast Studios. It was a 12-pack of soda.00:45:32.950 --> 00:45:36.250
But interestingly enough, it did not come in a rectangular package.00:45:36.250 --> 00:45:41.630
It came in a square package because that 12-pack of sodas was broken right in00:45:41.630 --> 00:45:47.590
half and folded back on itself and sent in a box to the studios with no return00:45:47.590 --> 00:45:50.090
address, no name, or anything like that.00:45:50.090 --> 00:45:55.790
And when we opened it, we found a case of Inca-Cola Golden Cola.00:45:55.990 --> 00:45:59.010
And if you're not familiar with Inca-Cola, and I wasn't either,00:45:59.210 --> 00:46:04.150
it is a very popular Peruvian, as in from Peru, soft drink.00:46:04.310 --> 00:46:07.230
It's yellow in color, which is pretty interesting.00:46:07.470 --> 00:46:12.710
It's flavor that is supposedly a mixture of cream soda and bubble gum.00:46:12.850 --> 00:46:16.870
And like I said at the beginning of the show, it has lemon verbena as a key00:46:16.870 --> 00:46:22.870
ingredient. and lemon verbena is some sort of green leafy lemongrass kind of tasting thing.00:46:23.050 --> 00:46:28.350
So I've never had this before. I have been in Lima, Peru, and that was a fantastic00:46:28.350 --> 00:46:30.690
trip. I went there on a mission trip years ago.00:46:30.970 --> 00:46:35.270
Loved the place, loved the people, loved that post-em kind of deal they have00:46:35.270 --> 00:46:37.110
there that you mix with milk.00:46:37.310 --> 00:46:40.230
Man, that was good. I don't even know what it was, but it was one of the first00:46:40.230 --> 00:46:44.230
times in my life I ever enjoyed something like a coffee beverage. Well,00:46:44.506 --> 00:46:52.086
We're going to try out Inca Cola and see if it is the kind of thing you should rush out and buy.00:46:52.246 --> 00:46:55.526
If you're not watching the video, you don't see it, but it's got a great can. It's a beautiful can.00:46:55.646 --> 00:47:01.066
It's gold and blue and it's got white lettering. It's just really sharply designed.00:47:01.326 --> 00:47:04.686
I don't even know where you would buy this stuff, but somebody bought it and00:47:04.686 --> 00:47:07.346
somebody sent it to us. So let's give it a shot.00:47:07.486 --> 00:47:12.166
Here we go. My first ever taste and sip and smell of Inca Cola.00:47:12.166 --> 00:47:17.186
Okay, I definitely smell the bubble gum. You can smell it as soon as you open it.00:47:17.906 --> 00:47:23.666
Kind of got a fresh, crispy sort of scent. It looks good. You can tell it's very, very yellow.00:47:24.046 --> 00:47:28.006
Mm, okay, I can't wait to try this. I've been waiting for a whole week. Here we go.00:47:28.466 --> 00:47:34.246
Oh, mm, that is so good. This is definitely the best beverage we've tried on the show.00:47:34.386 --> 00:47:36.646
Part of it is, of course, it's full sugar.00:47:37.086 --> 00:47:42.826
It's got 140 calories for the can, So that's not exactly a beverage for somebody00:47:42.826 --> 00:47:47.386
watching the old belly, but it's so good I'm going to have another sip.00:47:47.891 --> 00:47:48.891
That is tasty.00:47:49.131 --> 00:47:53.211
This is one of the best sodas I've ever had. And I'm not just saying that.00:47:53.431 --> 00:47:58.291
Wow, wow. This is a treat. It is so sweet. It's so good.00:47:58.551 --> 00:48:02.871
It definitely has, whoever decided to describe it as a mixture between bubblegum00:48:02.871 --> 00:48:05.411
and cream soda, they nailed it.00:48:05.571 --> 00:48:08.991
I cannot taste the lemon verbena, whatever that is.00:48:09.051 --> 00:48:13.071
I can't taste the lemon verbena, but I was kind of hoping for a little bit of00:48:13.071 --> 00:48:17.371
a lemon taste, but whatever this combination is, and it's a very unique one.00:48:17.371 --> 00:48:20.271
This is, I'm a man who's had a lot of American sodas.00:48:20.391 --> 00:48:24.031
I've not had a soda that really stacks up to this at all.00:48:24.211 --> 00:48:28.831
The Chupa Chups soda we tried early on in the run of the show is similar,00:48:28.831 --> 00:48:32.831
but this is much more of a robustly flavored soda.00:48:33.051 --> 00:48:36.791
This thing is not subtle. It's not mild.00:48:37.131 --> 00:48:44.111
It's a strong, tasty, it's not thick, but the mouthfeel and the kind of the00:48:44.111 --> 00:48:50.751
explosion of flavor gives you a little bit of a thick feeling to it. It's a strong soda.00:48:50.951 --> 00:48:53.611
And, you know, when you get older, your taste buds kind of die.00:48:53.751 --> 00:48:58.191
And I'm not as young as I used to be. I appreciate things that taste strong. This is good.00:48:58.791 --> 00:49:03.691
Okay. I think, and I hate to do this without Pastor Chris Cole present.00:49:03.891 --> 00:49:07.811
It almost seems blasphemous to do so. But I think I'm going to reward this.00:49:07.811 --> 00:49:14.471
The first five Spurgeon soda review in the history of Every Church Flourishing.00:49:14.471 --> 00:49:18.911
This is literally one of the best sodas I've ever tasted. I love Mountain Dew.00:49:19.131 --> 00:49:24.591
I grew up on Mountain Dew. This is like a fruitier, sparklier Mountain Dew,00:49:24.651 --> 00:49:30.111
and it really puts me in the mood to talk about the resurrection in Easter because00:49:30.111 --> 00:49:33.331
that is a spring beverage if there ever was one.00:49:33.471 --> 00:49:38.691
So what are some of the best places for you to go if you're in the mood to think00:49:38.691 --> 00:49:40.791
about the Resurrection Day and Easter.00:49:40.991 --> 00:49:45.471
As we talked about at the beginning of the show, it's crucial for Christians to know how to talk about.00:49:45.839 --> 00:49:50.219
The resurrection and to give reasons for the hope that we have and the belief00:49:50.219 --> 00:49:52.659
that we have that the resurrection really happened.00:49:52.819 --> 00:49:55.939
And so what I want to do today in closing out the show is I want to give you00:49:55.939 --> 00:50:02.659
eight Instagram or YouTube channels that are full of videos that help you understand00:50:02.659 --> 00:50:07.039
the resurrection and answer questions and objections to Christianity.00:50:07.359 --> 00:50:11.839
Now, not all of these channels are specifically focused on the resurrection.00:50:12.019 --> 00:50:16.259
Some, like the first one, are more focused on the reliability of the Bible,00:50:16.439 --> 00:50:20.479
but they all talk about the resurrection in important ways and they will all00:50:20.479 --> 00:50:24.519
equip you to talk to other people about the resurrection in important ways.00:50:24.679 --> 00:50:31.299
We start off with Wesley Huff. Wes Huff, the Canadian apologetics guy who blew00:50:31.299 --> 00:50:34.559
up last year when he appeared on Joe Rogan.00:50:34.679 --> 00:50:40.119
He is a PhD candidate and a genuine scholar of the Bible.00:50:40.339 --> 00:50:45.219
He focuses heavily on Christian history and the reliability of the Bible and00:50:45.219 --> 00:50:50.159
really on the manuscript tradition and how we got the Bible and answering questions00:50:50.159 --> 00:50:54.199
about all of that and dispelling some of the myths that are out there about00:50:54.199 --> 00:50:57.979
the transmission of the Bible and the supposed errors and all that kind of stuff.00:50:58.199 --> 00:51:04.979
And he is just a great combination of scholarly and friendly and engaging.00:51:05.599 --> 00:51:11.159
And you will learn a lot by watching Wes Huff's channel. and you'll kind of00:51:11.159 --> 00:51:13.579
get the idea that he's just a super nice guy.00:51:13.739 --> 00:51:17.119
I've never met Wes Huff, but if it turned out he was just a great,00:51:17.279 --> 00:51:20.199
super awesome, nice guy on camera and kind of a goober off camera,00:51:20.359 --> 00:51:22.359
I would be shocked and probably cry.00:51:22.539 --> 00:51:29.339
But I think the chances of that are about 99.99% against. He just seems like a great guy. Number two.00:51:29.734 --> 00:51:30.974
I am a mystery buff.00:51:31.134 --> 00:51:36.654
I love Sherlock Holmes and true crime and fictional crime, and I can't get enough of the stuff.00:51:36.814 --> 00:51:41.134
And I really am drawn, therefore, to our guy, J.00:51:41.394 --> 00:51:44.774
Warner Wallace of Cold Case Christianity on YouTube.00:51:45.374 --> 00:51:52.114
He is an author. He was an atheist and a seasoned cold case homicide detective from California.00:51:52.234 --> 00:51:57.494
He, on a whim, maybe on invitation of a friend, turned his detective case skills00:51:57.494 --> 00:51:59.874
towards determining the reliability00:51:59.874 --> 00:52:05.634
of the Bible and the truthfulness of its testimony about Jesus.00:52:05.934 --> 00:52:10.294
And he ended up having really explored the Bible with a detective's eye,00:52:10.414 --> 00:52:16.154
becoming a strong believer, a strong Christian, and a strong witness for the resurrection of Jesus.00:52:16.354 --> 00:52:19.474
He's written several books that are really good. And his YouTube channel,00:52:19.614 --> 00:52:23.754
which he runs with his son, Jimmy Wallace, who is also a detective,00:52:23.974 --> 00:52:26.974
is a fantastic resource to help you.00:52:27.375 --> 00:52:31.575
Understand why we believe Jesus Christ was resurrected from the dead,00:52:31.755 --> 00:52:36.435
why we believe the Bible is reliable, and it will help you answer a lot of questions00:52:36.435 --> 00:52:37.535
you have about the faith.00:52:37.675 --> 00:52:41.855
Number three, another very similar channel, and sometimes these guys alternate00:52:41.855 --> 00:52:44.555
with each other and are guests on each other's show.00:52:44.715 --> 00:52:50.735
Dr. Sean McDowell is the son of Josh McDowell, a very famous apologist and author.00:52:51.055 --> 00:52:56.175
And Dr. Sean McDowell is a professor at Biola University in the Talbot School of Theology.00:52:56.315 --> 00:52:59.975
He has had a YouTube channel for years. He does a lot of debates.00:53:00.195 --> 00:53:05.375
He does a lot of great videos and interviews and does just a fantastic job.00:53:05.595 --> 00:53:09.915
Not only does he discuss apologetics, but he also does a lot of youth forward things.00:53:10.055 --> 00:53:14.435
It kind of helps them walk through questions of morality and gender and contemporary culture.00:53:14.735 --> 00:53:20.515
And he seems like a really nice guy and is very gracious, and really popular00:53:20.515 --> 00:53:23.715
with millennials, Generation Z, and even younger people.00:53:24.135 --> 00:53:29.735
Now, Coley Stevens is number four. You might not be as aware of Coley Stevens as some of the others.00:53:29.875 --> 00:53:33.775
Coley Stevens is a guy I know from Instagram. I mean, I don't know him personally,00:53:33.775 --> 00:53:36.775
but I just kind of stumbled on him one day a year or two ago,00:53:36.775 --> 00:53:40.095
and he does some great apologetics work.00:53:40.355 --> 00:53:45.155
Often, he will have a few minutes clip of somebody who is attacking Christianity00:53:45.155 --> 00:53:48.795
or speaking up in favor of Islam or something like that, and he'll let them00:53:48.795 --> 00:53:52.475
speak for a while, then he'll answer the issues they raise.00:53:52.615 --> 00:53:58.715
And he is the opposite of a hype man or the opposite of an edgelord.00:53:59.055 --> 00:54:05.355
He's reasoned and collected and calm and reasonable and doesn't go for the throat.00:54:05.375 --> 00:54:12.875
And he's not like this big kind of bombastic name-calling kind of jerk who is quick to pick a fight.00:54:13.075 --> 00:54:17.135
He's very measured and reasonable for a young guy. He kind of looks like my son.00:54:17.815 --> 00:54:23.895
That's a bonus for him. And he just does a great job of calmly,00:54:23.975 --> 00:54:25.275
and I'm not saying boringly,00:54:25.683 --> 00:54:31.803
calmly but powerfully answering objections to Christianity and also claims of00:54:31.803 --> 00:54:34.183
other religions that are not based on fact.00:54:34.523 --> 00:54:39.303
Similarly, Ticoli is a name you might know more familiar, be more familiar with.00:54:39.443 --> 00:54:41.383
Tim Barnett, who is known as Mr.00:54:41.543 --> 00:54:46.543
B because he used to be a teacher. He's on the Red Pin Logic channel on YouTube.00:54:46.763 --> 00:54:51.863
He works with Stand to Reason, which is one of the best training organizations00:54:51.863 --> 00:54:55.683
for those who have work in apologetics and things like that.00:54:55.863 --> 00:55:02.603
Ten, on his Red Pin Logic page, he dismantles arguments and attacks of skeptics00:55:02.603 --> 00:55:06.603
on Christianity, and he kind of grades them like a teacher would.00:55:06.763 --> 00:55:12.163
He corrects their faulty logic and bad assumptions with really not like a jerk00:55:12.163 --> 00:55:15.283
by any means, but a very gracious, even-handed tone.00:55:15.283 --> 00:55:20.543
He's confident, but he's not overbearing. And he does it in a really peaceful,00:55:20.923 --> 00:55:22.123
thoughtful kind of manner.00:55:22.343 --> 00:55:25.863
And every time you watch one of Mr. B's videos, you're going to learn something.00:55:26.283 --> 00:55:29.323
Number six, Mike Lucono. We talked about him on the last episode.00:55:29.543 --> 00:55:33.783
He is a professor of New Testament studies at Houston Christian Universities,00:55:33.883 --> 00:55:35.843
the founder of the Risen Jesus Ministry.00:55:36.243 --> 00:55:39.683
He was mentored by expert on the resurrection, Dr.00:55:39.823 --> 00:55:44.283
Gary Habermas, who also taught me apologetics, although he didn't mentor me.00:55:44.383 --> 00:55:47.023
That would be kind of cool. But he was a great teacher of I've had.00:55:47.223 --> 00:55:51.983
And Mike Lacona's channel on YouTube features a lot of debates and comments00:55:51.983 --> 00:55:55.883
and content about the resurrection, the reliability of the New Testament.00:55:55.983 --> 00:56:01.303
And he is a very smart, clever guy. And he's a good dude that I have actually00:56:01.303 --> 00:56:05.683
sat down and had lunch with, which makes me kind of famous, too. OK, maybe it doesn't.00:56:06.230 --> 00:56:09.630
I got the feeling spending a weekend with him when he came and spoke at our00:56:09.630 --> 00:56:10.870
church that he was a great guy.00:56:11.070 --> 00:56:15.330
Number seven, Elisa Childers. Now, and it could be Childers too because I've00:56:15.330 --> 00:56:17.610
read more of her stuff than I've watched her content.00:56:17.810 --> 00:56:23.810
But she used to be a member of the Christian music group Zoe Girl that my daughters00:56:23.810 --> 00:56:25.630
loved when they were growing up.00:56:25.770 --> 00:56:31.590
Now she is no longer part of a team Christian boppy kind of music group.00:56:31.790 --> 00:56:36.470
She does hardcore apologetics. She writes some great books and great articles,00:56:36.470 --> 00:56:42.430
and her channel on YouTube really interacts with distinguishing between progressive00:56:42.430 --> 00:56:47.070
Christianity and biblical Christianity, and she answers a lot of questions about00:56:47.070 --> 00:56:50.390
the faith and does a really, really good, solid job of it.00:56:50.470 --> 00:56:54.630
Very similarly, although whereas Elisa Childers, Childers, whatever,00:56:55.070 --> 00:56:58.870
is aimed at more of an adult audience, Mama Bear Apologetics,00:56:59.030 --> 00:57:04.530
founded by Hilary Morgan Ferrer, does a good job of equipping parents and equipping00:57:04.530 --> 00:57:10.350
young people to think about the Bible in a strong way to love the word and to00:57:10.350 --> 00:57:14.910
be able to defend the word and answer questions about its reliability.00:57:15.410 --> 00:57:20.850
So you can check out all eight of those pages by coming to our website.00:57:21.010 --> 00:57:25.310
I will have them listed out with links for this week's episode.00:57:25.310 --> 00:57:28.050
I would encourage you to go watch videos on all of them.00:57:28.150 --> 00:57:31.330
You can also just basically look up their names on Instagram or YouTube.00:57:31.490 --> 00:57:34.030
All of them have a great presence on both00:57:34.389 --> 00:57:38.009
Instagram and YouTube, probably TikTok too, but I'm too old to mess around with TikTok.00:57:38.449 --> 00:57:41.869
So, hey, thanks for tuning in. I think it's been a great episode.00:57:41.989 --> 00:57:43.349
I think you learned an awful lot.00:57:43.609 --> 00:57:50.069
Emmanuel was a great guest and we plan on having him back very soon. He's eager to come back.00:57:50.209 --> 00:57:52.669
We're eager to have him on again. Thanks for listening.00:57:53.109 --> 00:57:58.869
Please do, if you get a chance, leave a review for the show on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.00:57:59.329 --> 00:58:02.549
Tell somebody about the show, church leader, pastor, whatever,00:58:02.889 --> 00:58:05.749
invite them to subscribe and listen in.00:58:05.829 --> 00:58:12.249
And we will see you next week with a series of episodes hosted by myself and Dr. Stewart.00:58:12.449 --> 00:58:15.369
I think it's going to be a lot of fun. Thanks for tuning in.00:58:15.469 --> 00:58:17.429
Good day to you and Godspeed.
