March 22, 2026

NO Supermen! Leaders: Take Off Your Capes. With Counselor Immanuel Marsh. Also: 2 Things I wish I knew sooner about defending the Faith. + Clearest Signs of Anxiety from My Clients. Are Christians who Believe the Bible weak-minded? + Inca

NO Supermen! Leaders: Take Off Your Capes. With Counselor Immanuel Marsh. Also: 2 Things I wish I knew sooner about defending the Faith. + Clearest Signs of Anxiety from My Clients. Are Christians who Believe the Bible weak-minded? + Inca
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Season 1

This week we continue out talk with counselor Immanuel Marsh about burnout, and helping church leaders and pastors stay healthy spiritually and emotionally. Can pastors have deep friendships with people in their churches? How do leaders cover up their burnout? What are signs burnout is imminent? ALSO: Top online apologetics YouTube channels, how to defend your faiht during Easter season and a review of the mysteriously appearing Inca Kola - which got an astounding score! 

WEBVTT

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Leaders and pastors find health, encouragement, practical advice,

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soul care, and resources that work together to build up your local fellowship

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and the broader kingdom of God.

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Join hosts, Pastor Chris Cole

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and Dr. Chase Thompson from the Great Commission Association, led by Dr.

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Mike Stewart, as they explore the frontiers of ministry and aim for the goal

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of making every church flourish.

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Well, hello again, everybody, and welcome into episode number nine of the Every

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Church Flourishing Podcast. We are a show that's all about church health,

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church growth, and taking care of pastors, leaders, and ministers.

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And we are put on by the Great Commission Association of California.

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Today, we've got a really great show for you. We've got part two of a fantastic

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interview with Emmanuel Marsh,

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a counselor from Alabama who specializes in working with pastors and leaders

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who are struggling with burnout and trauma and depression.

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We're also going to be talking about some fantastic apologetics resources with

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Easter coming up, and we've got a review of this really mysterious soda that

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showed up just last week, unannounced,

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sent anonymously to the Every Church Flourishing Podcast Studios.

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It's called Inca Cola, and after the interview, we're going to learn all about

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it and its primary ingredient, which is lemon verbena, whatever in the world that is.

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Well, I want to start out today talking about Easter and resurrection because

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that's just around the corner.

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And I've always thought that Christmas and Easter are the two best times of

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the year for Christians to be ready to engage skeptics, seekers, questioners, etc.

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And I think there's two major primary ways that we believers should answer skeptics,

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answer critics, answer questions, glorify Christ, bear witness to the gospel and obey 1 Peter 3.15,

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which is one of my favorite verses in the Bible, and it says, In your hearts,

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honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone

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who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you, yet do so with gentleness and respect.

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I think there's two major keys to interacting with skeptics and critics and

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questioners and seekers of the faith and obeying that command in 1 Peter 3.15.

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Number one, I think all Christians, not just all smart Christians or all seminary

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Christians or all pastors or whatever.

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But all Christians should be more or less an expert on the resurrection.

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And look, I don't mean like a snooty know-it-all who exudes pride and is quick

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to correct or shame other people.

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I mean somebody who knows and understands all of the issues surrounding the

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resurrection of Jesus in a profoundly deep way that really kind of welcomes

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and invites people to listen.

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When Greg Maddox, the former pitcher for the Atlanta Braves,

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when he talks about pitching, you've got to listen because that guy knows ball.

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I mean, he did not have a tremendously powerful arm, but he had such an incredible

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pitching mind. He was one of the best of all time.

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If you had an opportunity to sit down with cellist Yo-Yo Ma and he was talking

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to you about music and playing the cello,

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that would command your instant respect if you had any interest in that whatsoever,

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because that is a guy who knows his stuff.

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Maybe you're at a burger stand and you see Nick Saban or something,

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and he's talking about football and coaching college football.

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Well, you should listen because there's not a greater expert out there on the

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whole process of coaching college football than Saban.

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And I think we Christians should approach the resurrection of Jesus kind of like this.

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We should be the Greg Maddox, the Yo-Yo Ma, the Nick Saban of the resurrection

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of Jesus, because here's the thing.

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That is the very core, the crux, the center, the foundation of our faith.

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We don't have to memorize every book of the Bible or understand every nuance

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of theology or whatever, but man, we should know about the resurrection of Jesus.

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We should be able to talk about it. We should be able to answer questions about

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it and to do it nimbly and skillfully and winsomely kind of discuss the resurrection,

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even if we're attacked on our belief for that,

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because again, that's what it's all about.

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I don't think our job is to argue somebody into the kingdom of God.

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But our job is to answer questions and to allay doubts and to help skeptics see the truth.

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And what we're going to do after our interview with Emmanuel Marsh is we're

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going to look at eight YouTube and Instagram apologetics or resurrection channels

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that you can watch that'll help you become, you know,

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more or less an expert on the resurrection without going to seminary or even

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opening up even one dry and dusty theological tome.

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Well, that's one way to answer questions from skeptics and critics and seekers of Christianity.

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Here's another one, and it's not very obvious, but the second best way to answer

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those kind of people is to be like Fight Life 40.

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Now, what in the world do I mean by that? Well, I don't know Fight Life 45.

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It's just an anonymous person I encountered online last year.

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They're a person on Reddit.

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And if you've never been to Reddit before, it's probably for the best.

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But Reddit is a top 10 most visited website in the world, very popular.

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It's basically a wretched hive of scum and villainy.

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But it's also a place where people discuss anything and everything for a variety

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of reasons, probably some of them good, some of them not so good.

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I've been a pretty much daily reader of Reddit for literally over 18 years.

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And I do that because as a pastor, it really helps me understand where our society is trending.

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Reddit is the opposite of a Christian website. In fact, it's really in a lot

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of ways anti-Christian. But like I said, it's pretty interesting on the one hand.

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On the other hand, it helps me keep my finger on the pulse of America and the West, so to speak.

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And conversation started with a post that said, I can't help but think anyone

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over the age of 30 who takes the Bible seriously and makes it the foundation

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of their life is weak-minded.

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It was an interesting discussion. I actually think it's been deleted.

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I haven't been able to find it, but I did copy and paste parts of it.

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And the one that I really was struck by was the response to that post by Fight Life.

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And this is what he said, and I quote, I'm reading this verbatim.

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I have a very Christian friend.

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He's the strongest and kindest person I know. He forgives people who do him wrong.

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When I would have lashed out in anger, he's the ideal male role model. He gives to the needy.

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He tries to change people's lives for the better.

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He does marriage counseling, often for free.

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He helps kids get out of bad environments and helps with families of suicide

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victims, donates a lot of money to family so they can give their kids Christmas

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presents and never tells anyone.

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He was also a three-time professional athlete and always says he wants to be

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a shining light in a dark world.

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I don't know this guy. Obviously, he sounds like a superstar in pretty much every sense of the word.

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I'm not saying you and I have to be somebody who just does a billion good deeds

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and is also a three-time professional athlete, whatever that might mean.

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But Fight Life 45's friend kind of gets what the Bible is laying down in a way some Christians miss.

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1 Peter 2.12, for instance, says, conduct yourselves honorably among the Gentiles.

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In other words, among those outside the church, essentially,

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so that when they slander you as evildoers, they will observe your good works

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and will glorify God on the day he visits.

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In other words, friends, we're supposed to be known for our good works.

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It doesn't save us, but it does define us.

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Matthew 5, 16, Jesus says in the same way, let your light shine before others

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so that they may see your good works and glorify your father.

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So we are to be a people, I think, on the one hand, who knows about the resurrection

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and can answer questions and talk about it in the same way Greg Maddox can talk

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about throwing a change up across the outside corner of the plate.

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And we should be people who not so others will notice, but because we are followers

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of Christ, we help, we give, we do good things for the glory of God.

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Those two things combined, a Christ-honoring, humble, gentle.

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Shining light of works plus a deep understanding of the resurrection and ability

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to answer questions about it and give evidence for it.

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Hey, that's an incredibly powerful combination.

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Like I said at the end of the podcast, we're going to give you several resources

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online that are completely free and will help you become an expert on the resurrection

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by just watching some great videos. But first, we've got an excellent interview for you today.

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Not only that, honestly, just thinking ahead, not only do you have a great interview

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that you're about to listen to, and Emmanuel just does a superb job

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We've also got some fantastic guests coming up on the show, if you give me just

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a second to plug them, including Dr.

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Kristen Ferguson, who is a vice president at Gateway Seminary.

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She's an author, an educational specialist, and a pastor's wife.

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And she's also very interested in the intersection between Christian ministry

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and artificial intelligence. So I can't wait to talk with her.

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We also have David Salcido of the Allender Center and Shalom Restored Coaching

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coming up, Pastor Humberto Hernandez.

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David McConnell, who is the pastor of Agape Baptist in Alabama,

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known for his ability to preach longer sermons than anybody else in the South.

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Also, Dr. CJ1 is going to be joining us for a return visit, and Nick and Lisa

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Jenkins, dear friends who are going through a severe extended medical crisis in their family. on.

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They're going to be talking about how the church can better take care of members

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in the midst of trauma and trials.

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And next week, we've got a great panel of pastors and church leaders and GCA director Dr.

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Mike Stewart is going to be my co-host.

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And he and I are going to interview our panel on relationships in ministry,

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the things that make ministry leadership hard, pastoral loneliness and tips

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to increase your longevity and perseverance in ministry.

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But you know what? That's in the future. Right now, today, we're back for part

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two with my good friend, Emmanuel Marsh, who is a professional counselor.

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He specializes in coaching and consulting with pastors and church leaders.

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He is the founder of Marsh Counseling, the author of Five Football Metaphors

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for the Counseling Experience, which is linked on our website.

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Everychurchflourishing.com.

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And because he wrote that article, he's obviously a man after my own heart.

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More importantly, he is a co-founder of the Alabama Center for Pastoral Resilience,

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where he works personally with pastors and church leaders all across the country

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and helps them recover from burnout, trauma, and other ministry difficulties.

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And he is available to meet with you if you need help or consultation.

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Their website is acpr.consulting. That's acpr.consulting.

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Yes, it's not a dot com. It's dot consulting.

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Acpr.consulting. And today, in part two of our interview with Emmanuel,

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we're going to discuss his article about five key factors that lead to burnout

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in church leaders and pastors.

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Let's talk about some of these burnout factors that you've written an excellent

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article that can be found on ACPR.consulting.

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That's ACPR.consulting, five commonly overlooked factors in pastoral burnout.

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So we're going to kind of go through these and talk about them a little bit.

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And I've added one to the list and we'll have it in the show notes at our website,

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everychurchflourishing.com, but you need to go read this article that Emmanuel wrote.

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So the first one you got there talks about boundaries.

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So tell us how weak or unenforced boundaries can contribute to leadership,

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depression, leadership, burnout, leadership struggles.

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Boundaries, and it's one of those terms that comes up a lot in popular media

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and just everyday conversation, but we've kind of, we've kind of misused it.

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It's become to mean what you tell other people, what they can't do with you,

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but boundaries are for you.

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There's a couple of ways to look at it. One, boundaries are where I end and

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other people began and where my responsibility ends and other people's responsibility begins.

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And so if you have boundaries and you don't enforce them, it kind of erodes at your soul.

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Um, because you're in your heart or even you may have stated these boundaries

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you say that these are your boundaries

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but then you don't enforce them

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let's say that you monday monday is my off day if it's not an emergency

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Don't call pastor. Call somebody else. But Monday is a family day.

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I will not pick up the phone unless it's an emergency.

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Well, if you're answering the phone all the time on Monday for non-emergency

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reasons, it's going to chip away at you.

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James talks about the double-minded man is unstable in all his ways.

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When we say one thing and do another, or we claim one thing and act out another

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thing, it destabilizes us because we kind of lie into ourselves.

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These are my boundaries, but you, but if you don't enforce them,

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so a lot of times I'll get too busy and my coach who I go to for guidance or

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even my pastor, they'll say, well, who makes your schedule?

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And that's their way of saying, well, you make your own schedule.

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So if you're overworked or you, that means that you're not being true to yourself

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and to what your boundaries are.

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You got your principles, you have your time, you only get 24 hours in a day,

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you have your schedule. Yeah.

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Or even your values can be a

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boundary. I remember that you wouldn't do weddings on Alabama home games.

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Okay. If you, if you want me to marry you, then it needs to be on.

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These are the dates that I'm willing to marry you.

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There's some truth to that. Yep. Yep. Yeah.

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I don't know if I'm airing dirty laundry.

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No, no. I, so to be clear, I've turned down weddings of people.

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I don't know that weren't church members for Alabama games.

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Is that idolatry? Well, that'll be another episode. but I've definitely done that.

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Now, if it was a church member, I have wedded people during Alabama games.

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And that's just quite frankly, it's not persecution, but it's very hard.

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But that was probably what Alabama, like San Jose State or something. It wasn't a big game.

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It wasn't a big game. No, no, it was not. No.

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Look, I remember when we got married, my wife and I, we said our date,

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it was Auburn, Georgia, and sent the invitations out.

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People were like, hey, you know this Auburn? Hey, I know it's Auburn, Georgia.

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Weddings at 12, games at three. We're good. It's going to be a short ceremony.

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You'll have plenty of time that people don't play about their football.

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No, they don't.

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But pretty soon, if you have all these boundaries and either you keep crossing

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them or not enforcing them or other people keep crossing them,

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pretty soon, you're either going to get really resentful, even though you're

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contributing to it, or you're just going to be worn out.

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So yeah, unenforced boundaries, weak boundaries, that'll get you.

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So how do we know, and you brought up one that's definitely a gray area.

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How do we know the difference between healthy boundaries and healthy?

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Laziness or pickiness?

00:17:03.573 --> 00:17:10.533
Well, I would say that a healthy boundary is one that comes out of one thought and principled.

00:17:10.673 --> 00:17:13.113
It's not about the anxiety of the moment.

00:17:13.353 --> 00:17:16.973
It's not designed to try to tell other people what to do.

00:17:17.833 --> 00:17:24.813
It's designed as a place of, so for instance, let's say I've got a really big yard.

00:17:25.313 --> 00:17:28.733
This kid wants to cut my grass, but he didn't really,

00:17:28.933 --> 00:17:32.173
there's no fence, there's no boundary markers and so my yard is

00:17:32.173 --> 00:17:35.493
right next to the neighbors and he's like you want me to cut all that that's

00:17:35.493 --> 00:17:38.613
a lot of it's like well no i don't want you to cut all of that there there's

00:17:38.613 --> 00:17:42.333
here's the boundary line this is all this is the part that you're responsible

00:17:42.333 --> 00:17:46.373
for and they're responsible for their part you don't have to cut everything

00:17:46.373 --> 00:17:50.073
you just cut within these well that frees them up like okay

00:17:51.407 --> 00:17:55.627
Knowing what you're responsible for and what you're not responsible for and

00:17:55.627 --> 00:18:00.587
being able to make decisions based on your principles and values, that's the key.

00:18:00.807 --> 00:18:03.187
I don't see clients on Friday. That's a boundary.

00:18:03.667 --> 00:18:06.267
I've had many people go, well, I'll pay you extra. I'll put,

00:18:06.407 --> 00:18:08.147
no, I don't see clients on Friday.

00:18:08.147 --> 00:18:14.667
Now, when I will see a client on Friday is if I mess up an appointment or I

00:18:14.667 --> 00:18:19.267
need to reschedule, then I will make up an appointment on Friday if that's because

00:18:19.267 --> 00:18:21.527
I'm the one who made it made the change.

00:18:21.687 --> 00:18:26.087
And so I'll make it convenient for the client. But it's a boundary and only

00:18:26.087 --> 00:18:30.247
violated with some thought and out of a principle.

00:18:30.247 --> 00:18:35.227
And the principle is, hey, if I mess up something on my end or I need to reschedule,

00:18:35.427 --> 00:18:40.407
then I'll open my calendar up a little bit more than if something gets screwed up on your end.

00:18:40.847 --> 00:18:43.147
So that's the difference is where is it coming from?

00:18:43.567 --> 00:18:48.307
Yeah. Okay. That's awesome. Well, let's talk about the emotional roller coaster,

00:18:48.587 --> 00:18:57.547
kind of the dangers of us getting positive emotions and cheer from how other people see us.

00:18:57.707 --> 00:18:59.867
Talk to us about that. Yeah.

00:19:00.047 --> 00:19:04.247
And this one is, it's different for everybody. There's this idea that we leave

00:19:04.247 --> 00:19:06.067
home with a certain amount of,

00:19:06.307 --> 00:19:10.967
I don't know, emotional sensitivity to certain things or relational sensitivity,

00:19:10.987 --> 00:19:14.827
maybe that we just leave home out of our, out of our relationship with our parents

00:19:14.827 --> 00:19:18.327
and things are just, we didn't get enough of, or we got too much of,

00:19:18.427 --> 00:19:20.167
and that we carry that into other relationships.

00:19:20.707 --> 00:19:25.227
So for instance, if you're a person who needs a lot of attention,

00:19:26.435 --> 00:19:30.055
To feel good about themselves. Well, that could lead to burnout in a couple of ways.

00:19:30.255 --> 00:19:34.375
One, if you don't get attention by certain people, maybe you feel some kind

00:19:34.375 --> 00:19:36.675
of way, maybe it kind of takes the wind out of your sails.

00:19:36.975 --> 00:19:40.395
Maybe you don't let other people preach because that's your pulpit and you don't

00:19:40.395 --> 00:19:44.335
want anybody else to get your attention and you just need to be in front of people all the time.

00:19:44.655 --> 00:19:48.775
And that can weigh you out in general. Oh yeah. Or you need a lot of approval

00:19:49.295 --> 00:19:51.695
and you need people to tell you good job, good sermon.

00:19:51.855 --> 00:19:55.775
If you don't get a good job or good sermon, it kind of takes the wind out of

00:19:55.775 --> 00:20:02.095
your sails and needing other people or even wanting other people to fill in

00:20:02.095 --> 00:20:03.895
our emotional deficits.

00:20:04.775 --> 00:20:09.935
That's a good way to get high on the mountain and then come crashing down right after that.

00:20:10.215 --> 00:20:13.935
What if no one tells you a good sermon after you preach and you thought it was

00:20:13.935 --> 00:20:15.795
really good, but nobody says great sermon.

00:20:15.995 --> 00:20:20.035
How much do you need that? How do you measure what a good sermon is?

00:20:20.215 --> 00:20:24.055
It goes back to these values and principles. You know, I measure a good sermon

00:20:24.055 --> 00:20:26.415
by, was I faithful to the text?

00:20:26.595 --> 00:20:28.695
Did I do the appropriate amount of study?

00:20:28.915 --> 00:20:32.875
And that's pretty much it. Did I do something that I thought pleased God?

00:20:33.355 --> 00:20:38.735
Now, I like affirmation. I like when people say, hey, that was really good.

00:20:38.895 --> 00:20:42.615
That really blessed me. But I'm not going to be crushed if I don't get it.

00:20:42.915 --> 00:20:48.055
And so the roller coaster is how much of these emotional sensitivities kind

00:20:48.055 --> 00:20:53.015
of affect our ministries. And you kind of have to know how you're wired to really

00:20:53.015 --> 00:20:54.495
understand that part of it.

00:20:54.855 --> 00:20:57.555
But attention, there tend to be four major ones.

00:20:58.115 --> 00:21:01.895
Attention, approval, meeting expectations.

00:21:02.958 --> 00:21:07.938
And a sensitivity to distress, the distress of other people. Yeah.

00:21:08.318 --> 00:21:13.078
And so you need to be the hero. And every time the phone rings or every time

00:21:13.078 --> 00:21:17.918
you got to go, I have to do all the hospital visits. I can't let anybody else, that'll weigh you out.

00:21:18.098 --> 00:21:24.918
So attention, approval, expectations, distress, those are four types of sensitivities

00:21:24.918 --> 00:21:27.558
that'll get you on that emotional rollercoaster because when they're there,

00:21:27.698 --> 00:21:32.578
your functioning is great. And when they're not there, you take a different functioning.

00:21:32.738 --> 00:21:37.698
So how much of my functioning is a tied to other people's thinking of me?

00:21:38.318 --> 00:21:44.018
Absolutely. Yeah. And the thing you're saying, I think pastors more than other

00:21:44.018 --> 00:21:47.998
professions, based on just my anecdotal knowledge,

00:21:48.238 --> 00:21:54.798
are maybe a little more wired to seek and need approval and affirmation.

00:21:55.218 --> 00:21:59.078
And of course, the danger of being on an emotional rollercoaster like that and

00:21:59.078 --> 00:22:02.678
an approval roller coaster is it'll wear you out.

00:22:02.778 --> 00:22:05.958
If it bottoms out and you go through a season where you're not getting a lot

00:22:05.958 --> 00:22:10.098
of approval, that can lead to burnout and quitting really quick.

00:22:10.218 --> 00:22:15.738
But as you say, we're not in it to please people, the verse you quoted,

00:22:15.898 --> 00:22:17.958
we're in it to please the Lord.

00:22:18.218 --> 00:22:21.398
And that doesn't mean we're a jerk to people, church leaders,

00:22:21.638 --> 00:22:24.218
but it does mean we have one focus.

00:22:24.378 --> 00:22:31.218
I need to virtue signal for a minute here and just say, I've been using AI pretty

00:22:31.218 --> 00:22:33.838
much ever since it came out because it's very interesting to me.

00:22:33.978 --> 00:22:38.958
I don't use it for sermons. I don't even really use it to research sermons.

00:22:38.978 --> 00:22:43.478
I do occasionally use it for school-related things. I don't use it to write

00:22:43.478 --> 00:22:46.218
my emails or really anything I send out.

00:22:46.418 --> 00:22:51.638
But I have had about 10 in two years.

00:22:51.858 --> 00:22:55.138
And I know this is weird. That's why I'm saying I don't do it a lot because

00:22:55.138 --> 00:22:59.838
I think it's too weird to do a lot. But I've had about maybe 10 is a lot, maybe eight.

00:23:00.518 --> 00:23:04.138
Deep conversations with ChatGPT.

00:23:04.938 --> 00:23:11.918
And each one of them, I've kind of walked away semi-impressed at what's going on.

00:23:12.078 --> 00:23:18.678
And I recently, and I even was so struck by what it said that I sent it to David.

00:23:18.678 --> 00:23:23.718
I recently had a conversation with ChatGPT about some of these issues kind of

00:23:23.718 --> 00:23:26.338
getting ready for some of the upcoming podcasts.

00:23:26.378 --> 00:23:32.338
And one of the things it said is that pastors need to watch out for,

00:23:32.518 --> 00:23:36.818
quote, subtle ego attachment to fruitfulness.

00:23:37.518 --> 00:23:40.938
And I thought about that. I was like, what does it mean by that?

00:23:41.038 --> 00:23:44.738
So I just said, so what does that mean? What do you mean by that? This is what I said.

00:23:45.118 --> 00:23:49.178
Maybe it's just me. Maybe I'm the only one that thinks this is really insightful.

00:23:49.198 --> 00:23:54.718
But I walked away a little bit stunned because this is a weakness I have,

00:23:54.718 --> 00:24:00.698
and I would not have been able to articulate it nearly as clearly as ChatGBT did.

00:24:00.838 --> 00:24:04.398
So I'm about to read it because it's very similar to what you're talking about.

00:24:04.578 --> 00:24:10.238
It said, in ministry, subtle ego attachment to fruitfulness can become tricky

00:24:10.238 --> 00:24:12.758
because fruitfulness is a good thing.

00:24:13.198 --> 00:24:19.558
Wanting people to be helped, changed, saved, strengthened, or awakened is a holy desire.

00:24:19.638 --> 00:24:27.198
But the ego, your ego, can quietly attach itself to that desire so that God's

00:24:27.198 --> 00:24:31.818
glory and my need to matter get braided together.

00:24:32.576 --> 00:24:36.396
Then, discouragement is not only about love for the mission,

00:24:36.396 --> 00:24:38.976
it's also about a bruised self.

00:24:39.216 --> 00:24:44.476
And he says, the healthy counterweight is something like, I'm called to faithfulness,

00:24:44.616 --> 00:24:46.456
not omniscience about results.

00:24:46.636 --> 00:24:50.076
Fruit matters, but I don't control most fruit.

00:24:50.536 --> 00:24:56.996
Obscure faithfulness still counts. The value of my work is not proved by scale.

00:24:57.076 --> 00:25:02.836
My identity is not effective servant, but beloved man in Christ.

00:25:03.156 --> 00:25:06.796
And I'll just be honest with you, that's weird hearing that kind of thing from

00:25:06.796 --> 00:25:10.896
an AI, and I don't know what to do with it, but I think it's mostly spot on.

00:25:10.996 --> 00:25:14.976
Paul Tripp has a quote where he says that the kingdom of self does a great job

00:25:14.976 --> 00:25:16.776
as masquerading as the kingdom of God.

00:25:17.076 --> 00:25:17.516
Yes.

00:25:18.096 --> 00:25:23.976
Yes, it does. And so it gets really hard to separate productivity because if

00:25:23.976 --> 00:25:26.776
you're productive, it's like, look, I'm serving, but it's really,

00:25:27.396 --> 00:25:30.016
I just need to stay busy to feel good about myself.

00:25:30.596 --> 00:25:35.476
I've had similar revelations where I was actually, there was a point where I was just

00:25:36.122 --> 00:25:40.262
I had said yes to too many things and all of those things came due at the same time.

00:25:40.402 --> 00:25:43.242
And I was just like, I'll never do this to myself again. Once I get,

00:25:43.402 --> 00:25:47.082
I can't wait to have nothing to do except for just in my normal.

00:25:47.502 --> 00:25:51.642
And guess what? That time came where I didn't have much to do and I was miserable.

00:25:52.682 --> 00:25:55.682
And I was like, okay, so there's something else going on here.

00:25:56.222 --> 00:26:01.722
But a lot of times what we don't realize is that anxiety, we use work to calm

00:26:01.722 --> 00:26:05.002
ourselves down. You know, I realized like, oh, okay, I thought I'd feel better

00:26:05.002 --> 00:26:08.402
if I didn't have anything to do. And I actually felt worse.

00:26:08.622 --> 00:26:09.762
It's like, I need a new project.

00:26:10.522 --> 00:26:15.162
So it's really sneaky, especially in our culture where there's this kind of

00:26:15.162 --> 00:26:17.982
idolatry of productivity.

00:26:18.422 --> 00:26:18.722
Yep.

00:26:19.702 --> 00:26:22.302
And like somebody asked you, how are you doing? Oh, man, I'm busy.

00:26:22.722 --> 00:26:27.102
And I have to stop myself. And I'm not saying that to try to be impressed.

00:26:27.262 --> 00:26:29.562
I'm saying that because I really am busy, but it's become like a flex.

00:26:30.042 --> 00:26:36.202
Yes, it has become a flex. Number three, cut off an isolation as factors in burnout.

00:26:36.382 --> 00:26:40.642
And we've kind of talked around this quite a bit, that lack of relationships

00:26:40.642 --> 00:26:45.842
in genuine community is dangerous for anybody, especially pastors and church leaders.

00:26:46.082 --> 00:26:49.702
So talk about that a little bit, Emmanuel, and in the middle of it,

00:26:49.942 --> 00:26:54.582
answer the question that we've actually talked about on this podcast a couple of times here lately.

00:26:54.822 --> 00:27:00.842
Can pastors find deep friendships in the church they pastor?

00:27:00.842 --> 00:27:05.382
So let's just, in general, how can isolation lead to burnout?

00:27:05.862 --> 00:27:11.242
Well, God created us to be communal creatures. It's not good for man to be alone.

00:27:11.762 --> 00:27:17.282
The church is the gathering of the called out ones. And so we're social beings.

00:27:18.118 --> 00:27:22.858
But what happens is when we don't feel particularly good or we get depressed

00:27:22.858 --> 00:27:27.538
or we get anxious, one of the, it's not everybody's go-to move,

00:27:27.718 --> 00:27:30.598
but one of the most popular is to isolate. Yeah.

00:27:30.858 --> 00:27:35.198
And you may not physically isolate from others, but conversations are shallow.

00:27:35.878 --> 00:27:40.598
How are you doing? I'm good. You don't open up to anyone. And so what happens

00:27:40.598 --> 00:27:46.358
is all that stuff that you just are holding on to and you can't be healed, you know, confessors.

00:27:46.358 --> 00:27:49.798
And I'm not even talking about sin, but you can say confess your sins one to

00:27:49.798 --> 00:27:51.378
another so you may be healed.

00:27:51.718 --> 00:27:57.358
There is something that is healing about talking to another person about what is going on with us.

00:27:57.558 --> 00:28:00.378
That's just the way that God made us.

00:28:01.358 --> 00:28:05.498
Isolation. Here's another way to think about it. There's less place for the

00:28:05.498 --> 00:28:09.158
anxiety to go if we don't have anybody to spread it around to.

00:28:09.358 --> 00:28:15.238
And so as social beings, social connections dilute our anxiety.

00:28:15.558 --> 00:28:21.378
And so the more close connections we have, the less anxious we typically are.

00:28:21.738 --> 00:28:25.998
And so, for instance, if somebody comes into my office and they're just the

00:28:25.998 --> 00:28:30.778
most anxious person I've ever seen, I already know that that person is probably

00:28:30.778 --> 00:28:34.078
not well-connected, not in community,

00:28:34.638 --> 00:28:38.998
probably has a lot of cutoff of people they stop talking to in their family

00:28:38.998 --> 00:28:41.018
or friends or in their church.

00:28:41.812 --> 00:28:46.072
Because the anxiety has nowhere to go. You just have to hold on to it.

00:28:46.312 --> 00:28:51.232
And that goes the same for grief, negative emotion, or something that we experience.

00:28:51.392 --> 00:28:55.752
If they didn't have anywhere to go, just sit with it. And you can't metabolize it.

00:28:56.092 --> 00:29:01.092
You can't digest it. You can't process it as well as you could if you had other

00:29:01.092 --> 00:29:03.092
people who were bearing that burden with you.

00:29:03.592 --> 00:29:10.152
Yeah, that's a great observation that when we're alone, that anxiety has nowhere

00:29:10.152 --> 00:29:14.812
to go. And often it won't just kind of naturally dissipate.

00:29:15.192 --> 00:29:19.932
We're called to bear one another's burdens. And I think that might be one of

00:29:19.932 --> 00:29:28.052
our early warning signs that you're headed for burnout is if you are isolating yourself just too much.

00:29:28.172 --> 00:29:30.892
I can think of a few times. It's not happened a lot.

00:29:31.012 --> 00:29:34.352
I can think of a few times after I preached a message or taught or whatever,

00:29:34.572 --> 00:29:43.512
that either I felt like that was such a clunker or I was just drained from doing it.

00:29:43.612 --> 00:29:46.972
I sort of put everything I had into it. I remember one time at Agape,

00:29:47.152 --> 00:29:48.032
I got through preaching.

00:29:48.172 --> 00:29:52.912
I just found a dark room upstairs, no lights on, and I just sat in the corner

00:29:52.912 --> 00:29:54.572
for about 15 or 20 minutes.

00:29:54.772 --> 00:29:57.532
I don't know that that's unhealthy.

00:29:57.832 --> 00:30:04.452
Jesus had the habit of withdrawing to lonely places for a time, a day, a night.

00:30:04.652 --> 00:30:10.212
But when we leaders and we people in the body of Christ just in general kind

00:30:10.212 --> 00:30:17.172
of make that our steady state habit, we only fellowship the absolute minimum we possibly can.

00:30:17.372 --> 00:30:19.532
Otherwise, we're isolating ourselves.

00:30:19.832 --> 00:30:25.472
We're just going to build up dangerous amounts of pressure, anxiety, pain.

00:30:25.672 --> 00:30:29.912
I think that's a great observation that when you see somebody that's struggling

00:30:29.912 --> 00:30:34.092
with a lot of that stuff as a, as a physician kind of counselor,

00:30:34.332 --> 00:30:37.532
you know, Hey, this is, this is probably rooted in isolation.

00:30:38.302 --> 00:30:42.362
Yeah, Jesus, you know, he didn't have a congregation per se,

00:30:42.462 --> 00:30:47.182
but he had the 70 disciples and then he had the 12 and then he had the three.

00:30:47.442 --> 00:30:52.962
And he let the three in on stuff that the 12, the rest of the 12 didn't know.

00:30:53.122 --> 00:30:57.222
And the 12 got, they got more knowledge in the 70.

00:30:57.742 --> 00:31:02.462
And so I think that's a good model that, you know, can you have friends in the church?

00:31:02.602 --> 00:31:06.802
I think so. but it will probably be few, and they'll probably have to be very

00:31:06.802 --> 00:31:09.282
mature, trusted people.

00:31:09.562 --> 00:31:14.622
I don't know that you can do it with everybody. The 70 didn't get access to Jesus like the 12 did.

00:31:14.882 --> 00:31:20.902
Yeah, so that's a great point. So Jesus himself modeled this idea of having

00:31:20.902 --> 00:31:25.242
an inner circle, which I think in a dangerous way could turn into a click,

00:31:25.422 --> 00:31:27.022
but that's not what was going on there.

00:31:27.022 --> 00:31:33.842
I think what was going on there is a recognition that we share our deepest things

00:31:33.842 --> 00:31:40.302
with a small amount of people, a non-zero amount of people, but a small amount of people.

00:31:40.462 --> 00:31:43.362
And as you say, Jesus modeled that for us.

00:31:43.562 --> 00:31:47.442
The benefit of being in the church, the benefit of having connections,

00:31:47.782 --> 00:31:53.102
maybe not super deep, but more than shallow, is that if something comes up,

00:31:53.102 --> 00:31:57.322
there may be another enough people in that congregation to be,

00:31:57.462 --> 00:32:00.722
well, you know, that didn't sound like the chase I know. I don't believe that's true.

00:32:00.962 --> 00:32:04.802
So if the rumor gets spread or, or you make a decision that people don't agree

00:32:04.802 --> 00:32:09.282
with or like, yeah, I know that decision is, but it's chase.

00:32:09.502 --> 00:32:12.802
I, you know, that's not the chase. I know he really wants what's best for this

00:32:12.802 --> 00:32:16.622
church. And he's not just throwing ideas out there to see where it sticks.

00:32:17.082 --> 00:32:22.282
And so those people become your allies in the congregation because they know

00:32:22.282 --> 00:32:27.042
you well enough so if they hear something, that doesn't sound like Chase.

00:32:27.502 --> 00:32:31.042
So it could be, if you're playing the long game, that could be a benefit because

00:32:31.042 --> 00:32:35.062
you have a lot of people who know you well enough to kind of

00:32:35.952 --> 00:32:39.312
go to bat for you in rooms that you aren't in. Great point.

00:32:40.672 --> 00:32:44.652
Every pastor should play the long game. I don't think we do enough,

00:32:44.852 --> 00:32:49.352
but there's so many studies about how the more effective ministry happens when

00:32:49.352 --> 00:32:50.932
you've been somewhere for a long time.

00:32:51.172 --> 00:32:54.232
People can't get to know you in two or three years.

00:32:54.432 --> 00:33:00.492
Okay. Let's talk about over-functioning for others as a factor in burnout.

00:33:00.752 --> 00:33:03.292
What is over-functioning and how does it lead to burnout?

00:33:03.812 --> 00:33:09.612
Yeah. Over-functioning is a The counseling word, it's one side of a reciprocal

00:33:09.612 --> 00:33:16.912
relationship, and it is when we get anxious or stressed or worked up about something,

00:33:17.252 --> 00:33:22.932
some of us will take on more responsibility for others than we should.

00:33:23.432 --> 00:33:27.232
And the reciprocal nature is that if we're over-functioning,

00:33:27.292 --> 00:33:30.312
that means somebody is taking on less responsibility for themselves.

00:33:31.072 --> 00:33:36.372
A basic example is, so I know that I'm stressed when I get really directive

00:33:36.372 --> 00:33:39.292
with my wife on things that she already knows how to do.

00:33:39.532 --> 00:33:43.972
About a month ago, I caught myself, she's making my daughter lunch and my daughter

00:33:43.972 --> 00:33:45.292
wanted a grilled cheese sandwich.

00:33:45.832 --> 00:33:50.632
And I come into the kitchen and I'm like trying to tell her how to make a grilled cheese sandwich.

00:33:51.092 --> 00:33:54.952
And I'm like, my wife's a confident, educated woman.

00:33:55.172 --> 00:33:58.992
She can figure out where the butter goes and where the cheese goes and the grilled

00:33:58.992 --> 00:34:01.712
cheese. But I found myself trying to, that's not how you, and I was like,

00:34:01.832 --> 00:34:04.312
oh, I must be really anxious right now. I was about to tell you how to make

00:34:04.312 --> 00:34:05.292
a grilled cheese sandwich.

00:34:06.672 --> 00:34:11.052
But we need control to feel, to calm down. And the other person,

00:34:11.172 --> 00:34:13.572
they get to calm down by having less control.

00:34:14.512 --> 00:34:19.912
Pastors are uniquely susceptible to this because one, as you pointed out early,

00:34:20.272 --> 00:34:23.412
a large percentage of pastors already are kind of people pleasers.

00:34:24.250 --> 00:34:30.370
Just wired. They want people to think well of them. And so you just do too much.

00:34:30.830 --> 00:34:34.530
There's a personality part of it too. Like I'm kind of a know-it-all.

00:34:34.810 --> 00:34:38.290
Like if you're not good at anything but being smart, which is with me,

00:34:38.370 --> 00:34:42.350
I wasn't athletic. I didn't really have any, any, I didn't play an instrument.

00:34:42.570 --> 00:34:45.690
I didn't have any, you know, marketable talents. I was just smart.

00:34:46.370 --> 00:34:49.630
And the gift of that is you're smart, but the curse of that is you got to let

00:34:49.630 --> 00:34:53.750
everybody know how smart you are. And so you get really comfortable thinking

00:34:53.750 --> 00:34:56.550
that you know everything or telling people what they should do,

00:34:56.570 --> 00:34:58.910
or you should try this, you should do this.

00:34:59.250 --> 00:35:02.510
And with pastors, people come to pastors for their wisdom.

00:35:02.990 --> 00:35:08.670
And that part of the job is dispensing wisdom. So it's not that you shouldn't do that, but.

00:35:09.279 --> 00:35:10.519
You shouldn't do it quickly.

00:35:10.999 --> 00:35:14.579
And so ask questions. I don't know. What have you tried before?

00:35:15.319 --> 00:35:19.759
Who else is worried about this? What happened when you tried to solve it on your own?

00:35:20.059 --> 00:35:23.539
Who else do you know who might be a resource to you in this?

00:35:23.699 --> 00:35:28.339
Instead of just jumping in all the time and coming to the rescue,

00:35:28.339 --> 00:35:33.039
the more you put on the cape, you know, the more you're just going to wear yourself out.

00:35:33.299 --> 00:35:35.699
Because one, you're training your congregation. congregation,

00:35:36.359 --> 00:35:41.119
you're training your congregation to need you more than they biblically should.

00:35:41.379 --> 00:35:46.199
And to need you more than they need Jesus. Yeah. Which is a huge danger.

00:35:46.899 --> 00:35:50.979
Helping people find their strength, helping people work out their own theology.

00:35:51.159 --> 00:35:52.259
Well, what's your thing? You know,

00:35:52.319 --> 00:35:54.699
somebody comes to you, asks you a Bible question, like, well, have you?

00:35:55.159 --> 00:35:58.859
You could answer it, which is nothing wrong with that. But you could also say,

00:35:58.979 --> 00:36:04.859
well, go read, you know, Matthew 12 and tell me what you think about it.

00:36:04.859 --> 00:36:07.439
Let's, you know, let's meet for coffee and you tell me what you,

00:36:07.859 --> 00:36:09.879
you know, did you find your answer there?

00:36:10.539 --> 00:36:14.119
But wanting people where to find the answer, finally help people use their own

00:36:14.119 --> 00:36:17.939
resources instead of just jumping in to save everyone.

00:36:18.579 --> 00:36:22.679
Teaching people how to fish rather than giving them a fish every time they come and ask for one.

00:36:23.119 --> 00:36:24.879
Yeah, yeah. Because.

00:36:25.627 --> 00:36:30.187
The reason we get so sucked in is because we get anxious for people.

00:36:30.367 --> 00:36:34.807
We worry about them. And so to calm ourselves down, this is what it really comes down to.

00:36:35.287 --> 00:36:40.407
I'm going to calm myself down by telling you the answer or make myself feel

00:36:40.407 --> 00:36:47.327
good by giving you the answer or being way too available, answering the phone every time you call.

00:36:47.707 --> 00:36:52.027
And that's going to differ about pastors. Some pastors are very relatable and

00:36:52.027 --> 00:36:56.307
very available, and it doesn't bother them at all. I'm an introvert.

00:36:56.547 --> 00:36:58.827
I need some time to recharge.

00:36:59.667 --> 00:37:05.967
I can't be that available. I just couldn't do it and survive.

00:37:07.147 --> 00:37:11.727
Overfunctioning is just taking on too much responsibility from an anxious place. Yeah.

00:37:12.127 --> 00:37:18.207
Now, Jesus, he took on a responsibility for our sins, but it wasn't from an

00:37:18.207 --> 00:37:22.687
anxious place. It was a principled place, you know?

00:37:23.027 --> 00:37:28.267
He knew what he was doing. He thought about it. He prayed about it. He sweat blood about it.

00:37:28.427 --> 00:37:31.827
And he made a decision. That's not what we do.

00:37:32.527 --> 00:37:36.147
For us, it's usually coming out of our own worry or anxiety or need to feel

00:37:36.147 --> 00:37:40.027
a certain way or be seen a certain way that we tend to over-function.

00:37:40.707 --> 00:37:43.947
And I was having my daughter. She had a big homework assignment.

00:37:44.347 --> 00:37:48.387
And she wants me to give her answers. And I'm like, nope, I don't,

00:37:48.387 --> 00:37:50.587
you know. Read this, you know?

00:37:51.007 --> 00:37:56.267
She's like, well, how should I start this paper? Like, I'm not telling you. What do you want to say?

00:37:56.627 --> 00:38:00.547
And making her, you're like, you're 10. You can come up with your own sentences.

00:38:01.127 --> 00:38:06.627
But making her struggle and do things herself, which I've done from a young

00:38:06.627 --> 00:38:11.587
age, instead of me worried about her grade.

00:38:11.727 --> 00:38:15.227
And I see some parents do when I was a teacher, parents who do that.

00:38:16.418 --> 00:38:19.298
Your mother did this homework. You don't even know this word,

00:38:19.298 --> 00:38:23.038
you know, because they're so anxious about the grade they jump in.

00:38:23.198 --> 00:38:28.838
And so just seeing what people are capable of before you jump in. Jesus would do this.

00:38:29.158 --> 00:38:34.458
Somebody will come up to them and they'll quote a Bible verse or how do you read it?

00:38:34.538 --> 00:38:35.758
How do you read it? Yeah, exactly.

00:38:35.978 --> 00:38:39.658
Yeah. Just see what people are capable of before you jump in, you know.

00:38:40.118 --> 00:38:42.678
There's a lot of wisdom there. That's great. That's great.

00:38:42.678 --> 00:38:42.718
Right.

00:38:43.478 --> 00:38:46.858
That was worth the cost of listening to the whole podcast.

00:38:47.198 --> 00:38:49.958
All right. So in the last couple of minutes we have left, I'm going to throw

00:38:49.958 --> 00:38:55.938
out one that's not in your article, but I think is also could be a potential factor in burnout.

00:38:56.118 --> 00:38:59.238
And you can tell me what you think about it right now. A lot of people are talking

00:38:59.238 --> 00:39:06.958
about processed foods and the dangers of processed foods. They give you pleasure,

00:39:07.198 --> 00:39:10.058
they give you calories, but they don't give you health.

00:39:10.258 --> 00:39:16.018
And so I think there's some ways where pastors and church leaders right now

00:39:16.018 --> 00:39:24.178
are finding community and scratching the itch of isolation while not getting

00:39:24.178 --> 00:39:27.498
the health of real godly community.

00:39:27.498 --> 00:39:32.598
And I think part of that is online groups like Facebook groups.

00:39:32.598 --> 00:39:35.418
I'm part of several groups for pastors.

00:39:35.618 --> 00:39:39.198
And I know some people find really good, solid community groups.

00:39:40.004 --> 00:39:42.484
Ish in some of those groups,

00:39:42.724 --> 00:39:46.824
But it's not real. I mean, I'm not saying it's not helpful. I've been part of those groups for years.

00:39:47.524 --> 00:39:54.664
Reddit groups, huge kind of connection point for people, but not necessarily

00:39:54.664 --> 00:39:59.004
healthy like real food and something I referred to earlier.

00:39:59.004 --> 00:40:06.724
I know a lot of people are having these deep extended daily chats with chat

00:40:06.724 --> 00:40:10.144
GPT or Gemini or Anthropics Claude,

00:40:10.264 --> 00:40:16.384
and they're coming away with their need for connection seemingly met.

00:40:16.404 --> 00:40:22.944
But I think if you are a leader or a pastor and you're investing a lot of time

00:40:22.944 --> 00:40:29.684
in those kind of relationships rather than real relationships, mostly face-to-face,

00:40:29.884 --> 00:40:32.024
could be Zoom, could be, you know,

00:40:32.564 --> 00:40:38.304
but as long as it's, you're talking to a real person, I think that's much healthier.

00:40:38.304 --> 00:40:44.784
And I think investing too much in online community could be the equivalent of

00:40:44.784 --> 00:40:46.984
eating too much processed food. What do you think?

00:40:47.664 --> 00:40:51.024
Yeah, there's definitely something to that. I'm in a couple of Facebook groups

00:40:51.024 --> 00:40:55.624
for counselors, uh, myself and, you know, I use it as a tool.

00:40:55.784 --> 00:40:58.444
It's a good place to get some resources and referrals.

00:40:59.350 --> 00:41:05.370
But if you're using that as your social life, I think that's a poor substitute for it.

00:41:05.450 --> 00:41:08.610
One of the things we do, we do several things at the center.

00:41:08.930 --> 00:41:12.130
We do one-on-one stuff. We do workshops for churches.

00:41:12.470 --> 00:41:17.570
The kind of big tentpole thing is our cohort. There's nine months.

00:41:17.890 --> 00:41:20.990
We meet once a month for eight out of those nine months.

00:41:21.190 --> 00:41:26.270
Where pastors are in a room for the whole day, eight hours. and there's lecture,

00:41:26.550 --> 00:41:31.470
there's conversation, there's some spiritual formation. There's a whole bunch

00:41:31.470 --> 00:41:33.050
of stuff going on in those eight hours.

00:41:33.370 --> 00:41:36.930
And the pastors, that's one of their, they look forward to it.

00:41:36.990 --> 00:41:41.830
It's like, I don't get to be in a room with people and talk this freely and

00:41:41.830 --> 00:41:46.750
this openly, especially with other pastors who are going through similar things

00:41:46.750 --> 00:41:49.370
or have similar ideas or even different ideas.

00:41:49.630 --> 00:41:53.910
That's the highlight of it, the community aspect of it. and we've been asked,

00:41:54.210 --> 00:41:56.570
Hey, could you do one of these online?

00:41:57.230 --> 00:42:03.350
We've thought about it and we may end up doing it online, but right now I think is incarnation.

00:42:03.810 --> 00:42:10.350
You know, there's something about being in the flesh that you lose digitally.

00:42:10.630 --> 00:42:13.550
You just like, this is better than nothing talking on zoom.

00:42:13.910 --> 00:42:17.530
Yes. You know, cause you're, you're a real person at least somebody I know and

00:42:17.530 --> 00:42:22.330
I can see your face, but there's something about incarnation that is,

00:42:22.450 --> 00:42:27.970
different than online friendships or online interactions that you just,

00:42:27.970 --> 00:42:29.610
You just can't replicate it.

00:42:29.750 --> 00:42:35.090
It's just God made, made us that way. So it's a tool.

00:42:36.090 --> 00:42:38.930
I'll be curious, you know, if somebody is spending all the time on that,

00:42:39.050 --> 00:42:41.990
are there other relationships that they're shying away from? Yeah.

00:42:42.630 --> 00:42:46.850
Because it is a lot easier to, to be online than it is to talk to your wife.

00:42:48.210 --> 00:42:49.870
Can be absolutely.

00:42:49.870 --> 00:42:55.030
Talk to a particular person in your congregation and so is that a substitute

00:42:55.030 --> 00:42:58.190
or that avoidance of a relationship in another area

00:42:58.927 --> 00:43:06.047
Well, as we finish this up, I know you guys do, as you say, the in-person gatherings

00:43:06.047 --> 00:43:11.367
of pastors, but you also do consulting in person and online.

00:43:11.687 --> 00:43:15.887
So real quick, remind everybody of your website, how they can get in touch with you.

00:43:16.047 --> 00:43:20.107
Some pastors might be interested in any of the services you offer.

00:43:20.327 --> 00:43:25.847
So let us know how we can reach the ACPR and Emanuel Marsh.

00:43:26.227 --> 00:43:32.647
Www.acpr.consulting.com was way too expensive. So we just

00:43:32.647 --> 00:43:33.327
Do a little.

00:43:33.327 --> 00:43:39.687
Consulting and Alabama's in the name, but we've got clients that we work with

00:43:39.687 --> 00:43:45.147
all over the place, New York, California, Florida, Arkansas, Georgia.

00:43:45.887 --> 00:43:51.067
And so the cohort is local, but everything else, you know, we'll travel to some

00:43:51.067 --> 00:43:54.187
places and do some travel for some workshops and things like that.

00:43:54.627 --> 00:44:01.147
And you can reach me at Emanuel at acpr.consulting, but everything's contacts

00:44:01.147 --> 00:44:02.687
on the website as well. Okay.

00:44:02.827 --> 00:44:07.687
Well, all of that will be in the show notes for the show, links to the ACPR

00:44:07.687 --> 00:44:10.927
website and Emanuel's contact information.

00:44:10.947 --> 00:44:15.027
Hey man, this has been an awesome conversation. I'm not just saying that.

00:44:15.027 --> 00:44:17.107
It's been very good for me.

00:44:17.227 --> 00:44:19.987
It's been great to see you. I appreciate your wisdom.

00:44:20.227 --> 00:44:22.987
I feel like if somebody's going to listen to this whole episode,

00:44:22.987 --> 00:44:28.467
they are going to get a ton of healthy, really wise counsel.

00:44:28.707 --> 00:44:34.887
And I appreciate you giving us a little over an hour of your time to record and to share, man.

00:44:35.087 --> 00:44:40.047
Thank you so much. And may the Lord bless the ministry of the ACPR.

00:44:40.287 --> 00:44:43.807
I appreciate it, man. Anytime you want me to come on, I'm happy to talk.

00:44:44.047 --> 00:44:47.187
Well, we'll do it again. Absolutely. And I can't wait till we do.

00:44:47.447 --> 00:44:52.267
All right. Good luck. And I do listen to the podcast, by the way. So good luck on the...

00:44:52.770 --> 00:44:54.550
The podcast. Well, thanks, man.

00:44:54.670 --> 00:44:59.570
I appreciate you listening. Okay. I tell you what, I loved that interview.

00:44:59.770 --> 00:45:04.770
Right after I was done, I just sat back and felt like that was one of my favorite

00:45:04.770 --> 00:45:07.090
interviews that we've done on this show.

00:45:07.290 --> 00:45:13.370
And look, I was like batting practice pitcher throwing 50 mile per hour fastballs

00:45:13.370 --> 00:45:16.310
to Mike Judge or whatever and watching him blast it out of the park.

00:45:16.430 --> 00:45:21.030
I really thought Emmanuel did a fantastic job. And if you really paid attention

00:45:21.030 --> 00:45:23.970
to that, I think you will be edified.

00:45:24.210 --> 00:45:30.010
Somehow, someway, we got a package in the mail here at the Every Church Flourishing

00:45:30.010 --> 00:45:32.710
Podcast Studios. It was a 12-pack of soda.

00:45:32.950 --> 00:45:36.250
But interestingly enough, it did not come in a rectangular package.

00:45:36.250 --> 00:45:41.630
It came in a square package because that 12-pack of sodas was broken right in

00:45:41.630 --> 00:45:47.590
half and folded back on itself and sent in a box to the studios with no return

00:45:47.590 --> 00:45:50.090
address, no name, or anything like that.

00:45:50.090 --> 00:45:55.790
And when we opened it, we found a case of Inca-Cola Golden Cola.

00:45:55.990 --> 00:45:59.010
And if you're not familiar with Inca-Cola, and I wasn't either,

00:45:59.210 --> 00:46:04.150
it is a very popular Peruvian, as in from Peru, soft drink.

00:46:04.310 --> 00:46:07.230
It's yellow in color, which is pretty interesting.

00:46:07.470 --> 00:46:12.710
It's flavor that is supposedly a mixture of cream soda and bubble gum.

00:46:12.850 --> 00:46:16.870
And like I said at the beginning of the show, it has lemon verbena as a key

00:46:16.870 --> 00:46:22.870
ingredient. and lemon verbena is some sort of green leafy lemongrass kind of tasting thing.

00:46:23.050 --> 00:46:28.350
So I've never had this before. I have been in Lima, Peru, and that was a fantastic

00:46:28.350 --> 00:46:30.690
trip. I went there on a mission trip years ago.

00:46:30.970 --> 00:46:35.270
Loved the place, loved the people, loved that post-em kind of deal they have

00:46:35.270 --> 00:46:37.110
there that you mix with milk.

00:46:37.310 --> 00:46:40.230
Man, that was good. I don't even know what it was, but it was one of the first

00:46:40.230 --> 00:46:44.230
times in my life I ever enjoyed something like a coffee beverage. Well,

00:46:44.506 --> 00:46:52.086
We're going to try out Inca Cola and see if it is the kind of thing you should rush out and buy.

00:46:52.246 --> 00:46:55.526
If you're not watching the video, you don't see it, but it's got a great can. It's a beautiful can.

00:46:55.646 --> 00:47:01.066
It's gold and blue and it's got white lettering. It's just really sharply designed.

00:47:01.326 --> 00:47:04.686
I don't even know where you would buy this stuff, but somebody bought it and

00:47:04.686 --> 00:47:07.346
somebody sent it to us. So let's give it a shot.

00:47:07.486 --> 00:47:12.166
Here we go. My first ever taste and sip and smell of Inca Cola.

00:47:12.166 --> 00:47:17.186
Okay, I definitely smell the bubble gum. You can smell it as soon as you open it.

00:47:17.906 --> 00:47:23.666
Kind of got a fresh, crispy sort of scent. It looks good. You can tell it's very, very yellow.

00:47:24.046 --> 00:47:28.006
Mm, okay, I can't wait to try this. I've been waiting for a whole week. Here we go.

00:47:28.466 --> 00:47:34.246
Oh, mm, that is so good. This is definitely the best beverage we've tried on the show.

00:47:34.386 --> 00:47:36.646
Part of it is, of course, it's full sugar.

00:47:37.086 --> 00:47:42.826
It's got 140 calories for the can, So that's not exactly a beverage for somebody

00:47:42.826 --> 00:47:47.386
watching the old belly, but it's so good I'm going to have another sip.

00:47:47.891 --> 00:47:48.891
That is tasty.

00:47:49.131 --> 00:47:53.211
This is one of the best sodas I've ever had. And I'm not just saying that.

00:47:53.431 --> 00:47:58.291
Wow, wow. This is a treat. It is so sweet. It's so good.

00:47:58.551 --> 00:48:02.871
It definitely has, whoever decided to describe it as a mixture between bubblegum

00:48:02.871 --> 00:48:05.411
and cream soda, they nailed it.

00:48:05.571 --> 00:48:08.991
I cannot taste the lemon verbena, whatever that is.

00:48:09.051 --> 00:48:13.071
I can't taste the lemon verbena, but I was kind of hoping for a little bit of

00:48:13.071 --> 00:48:17.371
a lemon taste, but whatever this combination is, and it's a very unique one.

00:48:17.371 --> 00:48:20.271
This is, I'm a man who's had a lot of American sodas.

00:48:20.391 --> 00:48:24.031
I've not had a soda that really stacks up to this at all.

00:48:24.211 --> 00:48:28.831
The Chupa Chups soda we tried early on in the run of the show is similar,

00:48:28.831 --> 00:48:32.831
but this is much more of a robustly flavored soda.

00:48:33.051 --> 00:48:36.791
This thing is not subtle. It's not mild.

00:48:37.131 --> 00:48:44.111
It's a strong, tasty, it's not thick, but the mouthfeel and the kind of the

00:48:44.111 --> 00:48:50.751
explosion of flavor gives you a little bit of a thick feeling to it. It's a strong soda.

00:48:50.951 --> 00:48:53.611
And, you know, when you get older, your taste buds kind of die.

00:48:53.751 --> 00:48:58.191
And I'm not as young as I used to be. I appreciate things that taste strong. This is good.

00:48:58.791 --> 00:49:03.691
Okay. I think, and I hate to do this without Pastor Chris Cole present.

00:49:03.891 --> 00:49:07.811
It almost seems blasphemous to do so. But I think I'm going to reward this.

00:49:07.811 --> 00:49:14.471
The first five Spurgeon soda review in the history of Every Church Flourishing.

00:49:14.471 --> 00:49:18.911
This is literally one of the best sodas I've ever tasted. I love Mountain Dew.

00:49:19.131 --> 00:49:24.591
I grew up on Mountain Dew. This is like a fruitier, sparklier Mountain Dew,

00:49:24.651 --> 00:49:30.111
and it really puts me in the mood to talk about the resurrection in Easter because

00:49:30.111 --> 00:49:33.331
that is a spring beverage if there ever was one.

00:49:33.471 --> 00:49:38.691
So what are some of the best places for you to go if you're in the mood to think

00:49:38.691 --> 00:49:40.791
about the Resurrection Day and Easter.

00:49:40.991 --> 00:49:45.471
As we talked about at the beginning of the show, it's crucial for Christians to know how to talk about.

00:49:45.839 --> 00:49:50.219
The resurrection and to give reasons for the hope that we have and the belief

00:49:50.219 --> 00:49:52.659
that we have that the resurrection really happened.

00:49:52.819 --> 00:49:55.939
And so what I want to do today in closing out the show is I want to give you

00:49:55.939 --> 00:50:02.659
eight Instagram or YouTube channels that are full of videos that help you understand

00:50:02.659 --> 00:50:07.039
the resurrection and answer questions and objections to Christianity.

00:50:07.359 --> 00:50:11.839
Now, not all of these channels are specifically focused on the resurrection.

00:50:12.019 --> 00:50:16.259
Some, like the first one, are more focused on the reliability of the Bible,

00:50:16.439 --> 00:50:20.479
but they all talk about the resurrection in important ways and they will all

00:50:20.479 --> 00:50:24.519
equip you to talk to other people about the resurrection in important ways.

00:50:24.679 --> 00:50:31.299
We start off with Wesley Huff. Wes Huff, the Canadian apologetics guy who blew

00:50:31.299 --> 00:50:34.559
up last year when he appeared on Joe Rogan.

00:50:34.679 --> 00:50:40.119
He is a PhD candidate and a genuine scholar of the Bible.

00:50:40.339 --> 00:50:45.219
He focuses heavily on Christian history and the reliability of the Bible and

00:50:45.219 --> 00:50:50.159
really on the manuscript tradition and how we got the Bible and answering questions

00:50:50.159 --> 00:50:54.199
about all of that and dispelling some of the myths that are out there about

00:50:54.199 --> 00:50:57.979
the transmission of the Bible and the supposed errors and all that kind of stuff.

00:50:58.199 --> 00:51:04.979
And he is just a great combination of scholarly and friendly and engaging.

00:51:05.599 --> 00:51:11.159
And you will learn a lot by watching Wes Huff's channel. and you'll kind of

00:51:11.159 --> 00:51:13.579
get the idea that he's just a super nice guy.

00:51:13.739 --> 00:51:17.119
I've never met Wes Huff, but if it turned out he was just a great,

00:51:17.279 --> 00:51:20.199
super awesome, nice guy on camera and kind of a goober off camera,

00:51:20.359 --> 00:51:22.359
I would be shocked and probably cry.

00:51:22.539 --> 00:51:29.339
But I think the chances of that are about 99.99% against. He just seems like a great guy. Number two.

00:51:29.734 --> 00:51:30.974
I am a mystery buff.

00:51:31.134 --> 00:51:36.654
I love Sherlock Holmes and true crime and fictional crime, and I can't get enough of the stuff.

00:51:36.814 --> 00:51:41.134
And I really am drawn, therefore, to our guy, J.

00:51:41.394 --> 00:51:44.774
Warner Wallace of Cold Case Christianity on YouTube.

00:51:45.374 --> 00:51:52.114
He is an author. He was an atheist and a seasoned cold case homicide detective from California.

00:51:52.234 --> 00:51:57.494
He, on a whim, maybe on invitation of a friend, turned his detective case skills

00:51:57.494 --> 00:51:59.874
towards determining the reliability

00:51:59.874 --> 00:52:05.634
of the Bible and the truthfulness of its testimony about Jesus.

00:52:05.934 --> 00:52:10.294
And he ended up having really explored the Bible with a detective's eye,

00:52:10.414 --> 00:52:16.154
becoming a strong believer, a strong Christian, and a strong witness for the resurrection of Jesus.

00:52:16.354 --> 00:52:19.474
He's written several books that are really good. And his YouTube channel,

00:52:19.614 --> 00:52:23.754
which he runs with his son, Jimmy Wallace, who is also a detective,

00:52:23.974 --> 00:52:26.974
is a fantastic resource to help you.

00:52:27.375 --> 00:52:31.575
Understand why we believe Jesus Christ was resurrected from the dead,

00:52:31.755 --> 00:52:36.435
why we believe the Bible is reliable, and it will help you answer a lot of questions

00:52:36.435 --> 00:52:37.535
you have about the faith.

00:52:37.675 --> 00:52:41.855
Number three, another very similar channel, and sometimes these guys alternate

00:52:41.855 --> 00:52:44.555
with each other and are guests on each other's show.

00:52:44.715 --> 00:52:50.735
Dr. Sean McDowell is the son of Josh McDowell, a very famous apologist and author.

00:52:51.055 --> 00:52:56.175
And Dr. Sean McDowell is a professor at Biola University in the Talbot School of Theology.

00:52:56.315 --> 00:52:59.975
He has had a YouTube channel for years. He does a lot of debates.

00:53:00.195 --> 00:53:05.375
He does a lot of great videos and interviews and does just a fantastic job.

00:53:05.595 --> 00:53:09.915
Not only does he discuss apologetics, but he also does a lot of youth forward things.

00:53:10.055 --> 00:53:14.435
It kind of helps them walk through questions of morality and gender and contemporary culture.

00:53:14.735 --> 00:53:20.515
And he seems like a really nice guy and is very gracious, and really popular

00:53:20.515 --> 00:53:23.715
with millennials, Generation Z, and even younger people.

00:53:24.135 --> 00:53:29.735
Now, Coley Stevens is number four. You might not be as aware of Coley Stevens as some of the others.

00:53:29.875 --> 00:53:33.775
Coley Stevens is a guy I know from Instagram. I mean, I don't know him personally,

00:53:33.775 --> 00:53:36.775
but I just kind of stumbled on him one day a year or two ago,

00:53:36.775 --> 00:53:40.095
and he does some great apologetics work.

00:53:40.355 --> 00:53:45.155
Often, he will have a few minutes clip of somebody who is attacking Christianity

00:53:45.155 --> 00:53:48.795
or speaking up in favor of Islam or something like that, and he'll let them

00:53:48.795 --> 00:53:52.475
speak for a while, then he'll answer the issues they raise.

00:53:52.615 --> 00:53:58.715
And he is the opposite of a hype man or the opposite of an edgelord.

00:53:59.055 --> 00:54:05.355
He's reasoned and collected and calm and reasonable and doesn't go for the throat.

00:54:05.375 --> 00:54:12.875
And he's not like this big kind of bombastic name-calling kind of jerk who is quick to pick a fight.

00:54:13.075 --> 00:54:17.135
He's very measured and reasonable for a young guy. He kind of looks like my son.

00:54:17.815 --> 00:54:23.895
That's a bonus for him. And he just does a great job of calmly,

00:54:23.975 --> 00:54:25.275
and I'm not saying boringly,

00:54:25.683 --> 00:54:31.803
calmly but powerfully answering objections to Christianity and also claims of

00:54:31.803 --> 00:54:34.183
other religions that are not based on fact.

00:54:34.523 --> 00:54:39.303
Similarly, Ticoli is a name you might know more familiar, be more familiar with.

00:54:39.443 --> 00:54:41.383
Tim Barnett, who is known as Mr.

00:54:41.543 --> 00:54:46.543
B because he used to be a teacher. He's on the Red Pin Logic channel on YouTube.

00:54:46.763 --> 00:54:51.863
He works with Stand to Reason, which is one of the best training organizations

00:54:51.863 --> 00:54:55.683
for those who have work in apologetics and things like that.

00:54:55.863 --> 00:55:02.603
Ten, on his Red Pin Logic page, he dismantles arguments and attacks of skeptics

00:55:02.603 --> 00:55:06.603
on Christianity, and he kind of grades them like a teacher would.

00:55:06.763 --> 00:55:12.163
He corrects their faulty logic and bad assumptions with really not like a jerk

00:55:12.163 --> 00:55:15.283
by any means, but a very gracious, even-handed tone.

00:55:15.283 --> 00:55:20.543
He's confident, but he's not overbearing. And he does it in a really peaceful,

00:55:20.923 --> 00:55:22.123
thoughtful kind of manner.

00:55:22.343 --> 00:55:25.863
And every time you watch one of Mr. B's videos, you're going to learn something.

00:55:26.283 --> 00:55:29.323
Number six, Mike Lucono. We talked about him on the last episode.

00:55:29.543 --> 00:55:33.783
He is a professor of New Testament studies at Houston Christian Universities,

00:55:33.883 --> 00:55:35.843
the founder of the Risen Jesus Ministry.

00:55:36.243 --> 00:55:39.683
He was mentored by expert on the resurrection, Dr.

00:55:39.823 --> 00:55:44.283
Gary Habermas, who also taught me apologetics, although he didn't mentor me.

00:55:44.383 --> 00:55:47.023
That would be kind of cool. But he was a great teacher of I've had.

00:55:47.223 --> 00:55:51.983
And Mike Lacona's channel on YouTube features a lot of debates and comments

00:55:51.983 --> 00:55:55.883
and content about the resurrection, the reliability of the New Testament.

00:55:55.983 --> 00:56:01.303
And he is a very smart, clever guy. And he's a good dude that I have actually

00:56:01.303 --> 00:56:05.683
sat down and had lunch with, which makes me kind of famous, too. OK, maybe it doesn't.

00:56:06.230 --> 00:56:09.630
I got the feeling spending a weekend with him when he came and spoke at our

00:56:09.630 --> 00:56:10.870
church that he was a great guy.

00:56:11.070 --> 00:56:15.330
Number seven, Elisa Childers. Now, and it could be Childers too because I've

00:56:15.330 --> 00:56:17.610
read more of her stuff than I've watched her content.

00:56:17.810 --> 00:56:23.810
But she used to be a member of the Christian music group Zoe Girl that my daughters

00:56:23.810 --> 00:56:25.630
loved when they were growing up.

00:56:25.770 --> 00:56:31.590
Now she is no longer part of a team Christian boppy kind of music group.

00:56:31.790 --> 00:56:36.470
She does hardcore apologetics. She writes some great books and great articles,

00:56:36.470 --> 00:56:42.430
and her channel on YouTube really interacts with distinguishing between progressive

00:56:42.430 --> 00:56:47.070
Christianity and biblical Christianity, and she answers a lot of questions about

00:56:47.070 --> 00:56:50.390
the faith and does a really, really good, solid job of it.

00:56:50.470 --> 00:56:54.630
Very similarly, although whereas Elisa Childers, Childers, whatever,

00:56:55.070 --> 00:56:58.870
is aimed at more of an adult audience, Mama Bear Apologetics,

00:56:59.030 --> 00:57:04.530
founded by Hilary Morgan Ferrer, does a good job of equipping parents and equipping

00:57:04.530 --> 00:57:10.350
young people to think about the Bible in a strong way to love the word and to

00:57:10.350 --> 00:57:14.910
be able to defend the word and answer questions about its reliability.

00:57:15.410 --> 00:57:20.850
So you can check out all eight of those pages by coming to our website.

00:57:21.010 --> 00:57:25.310
I will have them listed out with links for this week's episode.

00:57:25.310 --> 00:57:28.050
I would encourage you to go watch videos on all of them.

00:57:28.150 --> 00:57:31.330
You can also just basically look up their names on Instagram or YouTube.

00:57:31.490 --> 00:57:34.030
All of them have a great presence on both

00:57:34.389 --> 00:57:38.009
Instagram and YouTube, probably TikTok too, but I'm too old to mess around with TikTok.

00:57:38.449 --> 00:57:41.869
So, hey, thanks for tuning in. I think it's been a great episode.

00:57:41.989 --> 00:57:43.349
I think you learned an awful lot.

00:57:43.609 --> 00:57:50.069
Emmanuel was a great guest and we plan on having him back very soon. He's eager to come back.

00:57:50.209 --> 00:57:52.669
We're eager to have him on again. Thanks for listening.

00:57:53.109 --> 00:57:58.869
Please do, if you get a chance, leave a review for the show on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

00:57:59.329 --> 00:58:02.549
Tell somebody about the show, church leader, pastor, whatever,

00:58:02.889 --> 00:58:05.749
invite them to subscribe and listen in.

00:58:05.829 --> 00:58:12.249
And we will see you next week with a series of episodes hosted by myself and Dr. Stewart.

00:58:12.449 --> 00:58:15.369
I think it's going to be a lot of fun. Thanks for tuning in.

00:58:15.469 --> 00:58:17.429
Good day to you and Godspeed.