July 6, 2026

Episode 25: Must Pastors and Church Leaders Go to Seminary? Is Online or In Person School Better? Plus: 666 OR 616: The Mysterious Mark of the Beast and the Earliest Manuscript of Revelation

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Pastors and Church Leaders: MUST You Go to Seminary? NO! But, Why SHOULD You?

Why Should Pastors or Church leaders consider a seminary degree? All about Gateway Seminary, Bay Area Campus.

What makes in person seminary training better than online seminary or online classes? Incarnate ministry training vs. online ministry training.

The benefits and drawbacks of fully online seminary or graduate school.

Upcoming Bay Area theology symposium on how churches should receive immigrants and deal with illegal immigrants.

Seminary is not necessary, but why should pastors and leaders go?

Seminary helps fill the gaps in training people to be competent teachers of the Bible and pastors in areas where some local churches don’t have the capacity to train.

Dr. Cameron Schweitzer is at Gateway Seminary as the director of the San Francisco campus and associate professor of historical theology. Today you will hear him talking about doing theology in the Bay Area, Jonathan Edwards, probably the best theologian America has produced, and his radical story of salvation.

Early on in the podcast, you heard Pastor Christopher and Dr. Schweitzer talk about the Mark of the Beast, 666, and then Dr. Schweitzer said something enigmatic when he said, or 616.” What was that all about? I know it was a light-hearted comment, but it is worth discussing in a slightly deeper way, because I myself am pretty fascinated by eschatology, or the study of the last things/end times. That number - 666 or 616 comes from Revelation 13, and then Revelation 14 describes its significance. Let’s read:

11 Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon. 12 It exercised all the authority of the first beast on its behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. 13 And it performed great signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to the earth in full view of the people. 14 Because of the signs it was given power to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceived the inhabitants of the earth. It ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. 16 It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, 17 so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name. 18 This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. That number is 666.

Revelation 14:9-12 9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

If you are an amillennialist, you probably aren’t very concerned about 666 or 616. The amillennialist view holds that the 1,000-year reign of Christ mentioned in the Book of Revelation is not a literal future earthly kingdom, but a symbolic representation of the present church age. In this perspective, Christ is currently reigning spiritually from heaven, and Satan has already been bound to prevent him from stopping the spread of the Gospel. This period of spiritual rule spans from Christ's first coming to his second coming. Ultimately, history will culminate in a single, glorious return of Jesus, followed by the general resurrection, the final judgment, and the eternal state. Amillennialists view the mark of the beast as a spiritual representation of allegiance to worldly, anti-Christian powers and the ideologies of Satan . They typically approach this concept in two ways:The Forehead: Represents a person's thoughts, intellect, and ideological commitment.The Hand: Represents a person's actions, deeds, and everyday labor.

Others view 666 and the Mark of the beast more literally. Many, many lines of ink have been spilled over the years talking about this ‘mark of the beast.’ There are so many theories about it ranging from the mildly plausible to the patently absurd. I recall in the 80s that many were convinced that UPC codes (the bar codes found on things you buy at the store) were the mark of the beast. Others believe it will be an injectable chip or something along those lines. The Greek word used for “mark” is ‘χάραγμα cháragma, khar’-ag-mah’ and it means a stamp, or a mark. It comes from a word that means ‘trench,’ so it very likely contains a connotation of digging, engraving or etching.

I suppose an implantable chip (possibly with circuits engraved on its boards) could qualify there, but that is a slight stretch. So – what is this mark of the beast? And the answer is, of course – WE DON’T KNOW! And once again, I am quite skeptical of those who claim to know exactly, because we aren’t given enough information to know. That said, we are given enough information to probably know the mark of the beast when we see it. I believe it will be very, very clear, and not something that you can be really duped into getting, like some sort of injection or thing that is given to you by deceit. Whatever else you think of the COVID vaccines, they are most certainly NOT the mark of the beast, and only bad exegesis of these passages can get you to that conclusion. The passage seems to indicate that the mark of the beast will be received with a conscious submission to it, and not ignorantly. Here’s what we know:

The mark will be on the right hand or the forehead.
The mark will be economic in some ways – there will be finance systems set up where you can’t buy or sell without the mark. As such, I kind of keep up with anti-fraud technology, because that is one possible way we could get to a mark of the beast. I could see a leader or government attempting to make currency obsolete somehow and requiring some sort of unique ID/payment method be somehow put onto every person.
The mark will somehow tie back into the beast/antichrist/man of lawlessness, and perhaps the kingdom/country/group of countries that individual is leading.
Even if we see the mark coming – WE WON’T BE ABLE TO PREVENT IT. God has ordained these events, and they aren’t written down in the Bible for us to try and stop them. We have no command to fight against the implementation of these technologies. Do so if you feel so led, but the point of this passage is very simple: Do NOT get the mark of the beast. The point is not – FIGHT AGAINST EVERY TECHNOLOGY or INNOVATION THAT COULD BE THE MARK. God’s Word will come to pass.

Bottom line: Don’t get a mark/chip/tattoo/engraving/implant on your wrist/arm or forehead that has anything to do with buying and selling.

One more thing to discuss – the enigmatic 666. What’s that all about? As you might imagine, Christians over the years have discussed this issue extensively and fiercely debated its meaning. Many believe that John intended the number to be used in a way as a code, and thus many use gematria – which is a way of assigning a number to letters and fashioning a sort of code – as a way to interpret 666. The problems with this approach are legion, as John never tells us exactly how 666 is the number of the name of the antichrist, and never tells us what code he might be using, and Christians have thus guessed for over a thousand years what he was thinking.

Many have definitely declared that Nero, Roman Catholics (Latinus), this or that pope, Mikhail Gorbachev, Ronald W. Reagan, Hitler, and others were the antichrist based on somehow making their name match up to 666.

Is the Number of the Beast 666, 616, or Something More?

But there is a fascinating wrinkle. Some ancient manuscripts read not 666, but 616.

That does not mean your Bible is wrong, or that somebody recently discovered a secret chapter in the basement of the Vatican. The manuscript case still favors 666. But 616 is a genuine early textual variant, not an internet conspiracy theory.

Papyrus 115 (P¹¹⁵): Dating to the late 3rd or early 4th century, this is the oldest surviving manuscript of Revelation. Kept at the Oxford University's Ashmolean Museum, it explicitly writes the number as 616 (χιϛ).

Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus (Codex C): A 5th-century uncial manuscript located in the Bibliothèque Nationale de France in Paris. It spells out the number in full: hexakosioi deka hex ("six hundred and sixteen").

Bruce Metzger, one of the great evangelical textual critics, explained why the two numbers may be related. He wrote that “the Greek form Nero Caesar written in Hebrew characters … is equivalent to 666, whereas the Latin form … is equivalent to 616.” In other words, a slightly different spelling of Nero Caesar could produce either number.

That leads to the first major theory: the preterist or first-century Roman view. Many scholars think John was pointing to Nero, or perhaps to Nero as a symbol of the persecuting Roman Empire. Nero became the original monster under the bed, so to speak, for early Christians. He was a ruler associated with brutality, imperial power, blasphemous claims, and persecution. The Nero explanation is especially interesting because it can account for both 666 and 616.

But it does not settle every question. Revelation was written to real first-century churches, yet it also looks ahead to the final victory of Christ. That is why many futurists see the beast as a coming final Antichrist, a real future ruler who will demand worship and wield political, religious, and economic power. Grant Osborne puts it well: “The coming Antichrist would be a Nero-like figure who would be the antitype of that evil anti-Christian.”

Historicist interpreters take another route. They see the beast imagery as unfolding through the history of the church, especially through recurring systems where political power, false religion, coercion, and persecution unite against Christ’s people. Historically, many Protestants applied this to the papacy or to corrupt church-state systems. Their warning is worth hearing, even where we may disagree with their identifications: tyranny does not always arrive wearing a villain costume. Sometimes it arrives carrying a Bible, a flag, a sword, and a demand for unquestioning loyalty.

Then there is the symbolic or idealist approach. G. K. Beale calls 666 “the completeness of sinful incompleteness.” Six falls short of seven, and three sixes may portray a counterfeit trinity, evil pretending to be divine but always falling short. The beast can look impressive, powerful, even miraculous. But he is never Christ.

And that brings us to the pastoral point. Whatever view you hold, the mark in Revelation is tied to worship, allegiance, and compromise. Craig Keener says John is writing “less to satisfy our end-time curiosity than to warn us about compromise.”

So do not panic every time technology changes. Do not assume a debit card, a barcode, or an app can accidentally separate a believer from Christ. But do ask the deeper question: What am I being pressured to worship? What am I being tempted to compromise? Whose name is shaping my mind, my work, my money, my loyalties, and my life?

Because Revelation is not mainly trying to make us afraid of the future. It is calling us to be faithful to Jesus in the present, and to be watchful and waiting for His return, doing the Great Commission work of the Master while we wait.

If the futurist perspective on Revelation is correct, then I believe when the antichrist/beast comes onto the scene, it will be much clearer how the number 666 relates to him. In this, I wholeheartedly agree with Andrew of Caesarea, a church bishop from the 500s, who wrote a commentary on Revelation:

For the sober-minded, time and experience will reveal the actual significance of the number and the truth of whatever has been written about it. For, were it necessary, as some of the teachers say, that such a name be clearly known, the seer would have revealed it. But the divine grace did not consent that the name of the destroyer be noted in the divine book

William C. Weinrich, ed., Revelation, Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 2005), 213.

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WEBVTT

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Dr. Cameron Schweitzer is at Gateway Seminary, is the director of the San Francisco

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campus and associate professor of historical theology.

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Today, you're going to hear him talking about doing theology in the San Francisco Bay Area.

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Jonathan Edwards, who's probably the best theologian America has produced,

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and his radical story of salvation, where he says...

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In a very serious and significant way, it was as if scales fell from my eyes.

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And for the first time, I saw the depth and gravity and heinousness of my sin,

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but the even deeper and richer and more beautiful grace of God in the person

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and work of Jesus Christ.

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Practical advice, soul care, and resources that work together to build up your

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local fellowship and the broader kingdom of God.

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Join hosts, Pastor Chris Cole and Dr. Chase Thompson from the Great Commission

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Association, led by Dr. Mike Stewart, as they explore the frontiers of ministry

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and aim for the goal of making every church flourish.

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Hello, everybody, and welcome in to episode number 25 of the Every Church Flourishing

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Podcast, which is sponsored by the Great Commission Association of California.

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Today, we've got Dr. Cameron Schweitzer, who is the head of Gateway Seminary's Bay Area campus.

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Pastor Christopher Cole and I had a blast with this interview with Dr.

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Schweitzer, and we were honestly bummed out when it had to end.

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We're going to talk to him today about a lot of things over the next two episodes,

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but our focus is on this episode of

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training pastors and church leaders. Should, must pastors go to seminaries?

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Are there alternatives to training leaders?

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What about online classes and that sort of thing?

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And then we're going to end today talking about the upcoming San Francisco Bay

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Area Theology Symposium that Dr.

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Schweitzer and Gateway are putting on, which is going to discuss immigration

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in the church and how churches and pastors should handle illegal immigrants

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as well as Christian nationalism and

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Several other honestly explosively controversial topics.

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So you get to listen to Dr. Schweitzer today while he is in one piece and relatively

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healthy. He might be a little bit at risk after that theology symposium.

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I tell you more about Cameron Schweitzer, but we do a pretty good job today

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of introducing him in the interview. So let's jump over to it now.

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So we are here today with special guest, Dr. Cameron Schweitzer.

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And Cameron is the director of the Bay Area campus of Gateway Baptist Theological

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Seminary and the associate professor of historical theology there.

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He's a 2022 PhD graduate of Gateway Way Seminary, where he wrote his dissertation

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on the always exciting Jonathan Edwards, in particular Edwards' academic interests, right?

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So you have academic interests in systematic theology, biblical theology, historical theology,

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philosophy, apologetics, and ethics. So that's like your aficionado type field.

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We're going to get into other things that you love too later.

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But Cameron has published several articles and book reviews in the Puritan Reform

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Journal, the Jonathan Edwards Study Journal, the Studies in Puritanism and Piety

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Journal, the Calvin Theological Journal, and Thamelios.

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So he's been quite busy like all the time, like you write all the time.

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And he's also published several chapters in the second and third volumes of

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the Jonathan Edwards Miscellany's Companion. So welcome to our show,

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to every church flourishing.

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Yeah, this sounds like a really important, smart guy. I forgot to take my ginkgo

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biloba this morning, so I hope this Coke Zero is enough to keep my brain firing.

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Let that artificial caffeine boost.

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Yeah, it's got to do something.

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Your artificial brain cells.

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So is there anything we missed in that introduction to you?

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The only thing I need to add, of course, would be familial, that my wife and

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kids would be very upset if I didn't say that I have another life outside of

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my life with Gateway Seminary.

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Namely, I'm married to a beautiful woman named Sandra. We've been together since,

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well, married since July of 2019, dating since 2018.

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We have two little kiddos at home, Malachi, who just turned four,

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and my daughter Haven, who's a year and a half.

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Outside of Gateway, I mean, they're my everything. I've been following Christ

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since, I only wasn't bringing this up because we had talked about what we may

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talk about. So I know you're going to bring up my conversion.

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So I kind of assumed it, but yeah, of course, I've been following Christ since

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I was just on my 18th birthday when I was converted really radically when a

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friend invited me to church in February, 2009.

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One other thing, though, you said one other thing I need to add,

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and the publishers of my forthcoming books would be remiss if I did not promo

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them that in the next year I will have three books coming out.

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That's a lot. It is. Thankfully, I'm co-doing everything. So you can do more

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when you do it with other people. Yes. Right. As the saying goes,

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if you want to get there fast, go it alone. But if you want to get there and

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finish, what? Go with a crowd, right? Or go with others. However that old saying

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goes. I just made that up. I parodied it.

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Now it's going to be an old saying.

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Now it's an old saying as of two minutes ago when I thought of it.

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But there are going to be, you're going to ask about the Nicene Creed conference

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that we did last year in the Bay Area that some of your listeners would have been to, hopefully.

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And there is a book coming out by B&H that will be released,

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Lord willing, at the SBC next year on the Baptist celebration of the Nicene

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Creed that I'm co-editing with Ryan Rippey, who's a pastor up in Benicia.

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There's another book I'm co-editing on Edwards with a man named Rob Boss who

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leads the Jonathan Edwards Society, and it's a book called The Integrated Edwards,

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How Edwards Can Shape and Inform Modern Conversations on Theology,

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Philosophy, Ethics, and Pastoral Ministry.

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Then the third book, I'm co-authoring with a friend of mine named Ben on how

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to succeed, thrive, and survive in the hardest to reach places in ministry.

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And Whitvenstock will be publishing that one, but those all should come out next year. Okay.

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So I need to pump those numbers up. Yeah.

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Anyways. This podcast is a significant driver of Christian bestsellers.

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I'm quite sure. Yeah. So I came on.

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You're in the right place.

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Totally self-serving.

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The next Rick Warren, you know, Billy Graham of publishing.

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So let's lead off with these three most important questions we have for you today.

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And the rest of them are just more secondary.

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And the first one is, what is your favorite cereal?

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Well, as I was saying earlier, I'm kind of a health nut.

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So I see your first two questions. And I know you ask a lot of people about

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soda as you drink a Coke Zero.

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Cereal-wise, I've not, you know, had like typical cereal in a very long time.

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But there is a healthy cereal I like called Catalina Crunch.

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I'm familiar.

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Which I eat as a snack, but I'm very rarely over breakfast eating a bowl of

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cereal. For breakfast, I'm either eating something called Teff,

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which very few people have ever heard of, or...

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I have not.

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I'm going to pump the health of Teff on this podcast, but it's the ancient grain

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of Ethiopia. It's very good. It tastes like cream of wheat, but way better for

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you. So my favorite breakfast cereal is probably Teff, but that's a warm brown porridge.

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Okay. Catalina Crunch is a favorite.

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I don't drink soda, but I do like myself a spindrift or a poppy.

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Those are good. Yeah. But I'm not drinking, drinking, drinking.

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I'm not drinking any soda for a long time, guys. The good grammar.

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That's good grammar. Okay.

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I speak goodly sometimes. You do.

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You do. And the third question, what theologian would be the worst companion on a desert island?

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Oh, no question. My dead mentor, Jonathan Edwards.

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Okay. Yeah. I think, I thought you might say that. That's why I threw the question

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in. And just very briefly, why would he be so bad?

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Well, he was not the most personable of people, as the old saying goes,

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to talk about more old sayings, unless he was very close to you and comfortable.

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He was very aloof or seemingly off-putting in his whole situation.

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He didn't say a lot, which is why he didn't endear himself to a lot of people.

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So unless I earned his trust, he would not be the warmest of companions.

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And then secondly, his wife very famously was the one who took care of the house

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along with their slaves.

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So he was of so heavenly mind that he was of no earthly good in a very literal sense.

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So you probably would have to do all the work.

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I'd have to do all the work. And the problem is, is I very much am like Edward

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and I can't do anything to save my own life.

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So I can't, I've held a gun like twice in my life. I've never built a fire.

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I don't know how to fish. So it's like, I would not be much more helpful.

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We would just be like begging for our lives that God would send someone to save

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us. Yeah, it was said of Edwards that he at any time didn't even know how many

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milk kiln he had in his house who spent, you know, 12, 13 hours in his study.

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Nice. Yeah. So Edwards, no question, I think would be the worst companion on

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a desert island. The other would have been Martin Luther, just because you never

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know what that hothead would do from one day to another.

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Yeah. Okay. Great answer. Well, I'm going to kind of step back and lick my wounds

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over my guilt about eating so much cereal and consider my life choices.

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And drinking a lot of soda.

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That too. That too. This has not been a good start for me. So,

00:09:22.811 --> 00:09:25.811
Pastor Chris, why don't you lead us into the promised land?

00:09:25.811 --> 00:09:31.731
Yeah, let's go into something that you did just mention about crying out to God for salvation.

00:09:31.731 --> 00:09:36.431
And you mentioned this earlier, that you had a radical conversion at the age

00:09:36.431 --> 00:09:41.691
of 18. Tell us about that and what made it so radical? How many minutes?

00:09:42.719 --> 00:09:45.100
You have up to 170 minutes.

00:09:45.100 --> 00:09:48.274
Got it. Okay. 70 times seven, it would seem.

00:09:48.565 --> 00:09:52.010
I don't even want the short version or the long version in our podcast format.

00:09:52.010 --> 00:09:56.950
So the short version is that in my senior year, my best friend of the time,

00:09:56.950 --> 00:10:00.070
Jeremiah, was dating this girl named Brianna Dickey.

00:10:00.370 --> 00:10:04.960
And Brianna Dickey's family were the godliest, kindest people I'd ever met.

00:10:04.960 --> 00:10:09.428
And when they met me for the first time, it was the summer before my senior year of high school.

00:10:09.544 --> 00:10:12.840
And I was very lost, very lost, even though I was going into a Christian prep

00:10:12.840 --> 00:10:16.440
school, I was very clearly lost. And I was the worst of all sinners.

00:10:16.440 --> 00:10:19.030
I was proud, arrogant, foul-mouthed.

00:10:19.370 --> 00:10:22.270
Name the sin I would have been pursuing it. They met me for the first time that

00:10:22.270 --> 00:10:25.810
summer at the beach, and they just realized quickly how lost I was.

00:10:26.250 --> 00:10:29.760
And like Rosaria Butterfield has said in her very famous book,

00:10:29.760 --> 00:10:31.210
the gospel comes with a house key.

00:10:31.210 --> 00:10:36.950
And for me, their hospitality proved to be one of the two means that God used

00:10:36.950 --> 00:10:38.480
in his sovereignty to draw me to himself.

00:10:38.480 --> 00:10:42.390
The other being my high school senior year Bible teacher, Dan Rice.

00:10:42.390 --> 00:10:45.840
But the Dickies in particular, the ones who then led me to church where I heard

00:10:45.840 --> 00:10:47.000
the gospel and was converted.

00:10:47.000 --> 00:10:52.310
But suffice to say that over my senior year, they began to invite me and Jeremiah

00:10:52.310 --> 00:10:54.360
over every Tuesday night for dinner.

00:10:54.360 --> 00:10:57.870
And having grown up with a single mom who was a nurse who didn't know how to

00:10:57.870 --> 00:11:01.900
cook. Sorry, mom, as you listen to this. Her Kraft blue box mac and cheese mixed

00:11:01.900 --> 00:11:03.604
in with frozen corn and ground beef.

00:11:03.848 --> 00:11:08.190
You know, good, but not all that appetizing. And I compared it to Miss Dickey's

00:11:08.190 --> 00:11:12.880
cooking. And so she made amazing dinner. So it made my saying yes every week

00:11:12.880 --> 00:11:15.220
to go over to their house for Tuesday night dinner is very easy because she

00:11:15.220 --> 00:11:17.043
made a new and amazing meal every week.

00:11:17.444 --> 00:11:21.529
And when I was there, they took an interest in me. They asked me questions about my life.

00:11:21.529 --> 00:11:24.439
They prayed. They cared for me as a person. They showed hospitality.

00:11:24.439 --> 00:11:27.489
Paul said, seek to show hospitality, and that they didn't.

00:11:27.489 --> 00:11:30.479
They weren't overtly preachy to say that.

00:11:30.479 --> 00:11:33.919
They were just kind and loving. And fast forward several months,

00:11:33.919 --> 00:11:37.089
they invited me to church for the first time.

00:11:37.089 --> 00:11:41.199
And now by this time, Jeremiah and her had broken up. And much to his chagrin,

00:11:41.579 --> 00:11:44.269
they all wanted me to remain in their lives.

00:11:44.269 --> 00:11:47.569
And so each of them, after they broke up, the father, the mother,

00:11:47.569 --> 00:11:49.949
and then Brianna each called me and said, hey, we'd understand why you still

00:11:49.949 --> 00:11:52.239
wouldn't come around, but we still want you in our lives. Please come around.

00:11:52.239 --> 00:11:54.639
They'd so endeared themselves to me that I couldn't say no.

00:11:54.979 --> 00:11:59.109
So now February 2009, I'd known them, I don't know, eight, nine months at this time.

00:11:59.109 --> 00:12:01.689
They said, hey, do you want to go to church with us? And at that time,

00:12:01.689 --> 00:12:04.459
they were going to Harvest Christian Fellowship in Riverside,

00:12:04.459 --> 00:12:07.809
California, where Greg Laurie is the senior pastor, a very famous megachurch.

00:12:07.809 --> 00:12:10.869
And they would go to their Sunday night service, which was called Sundays at

00:12:10.869 --> 00:12:15.539
7, which was led by a pastor named Steve Wilburn, who used to be their youth

00:12:15.539 --> 00:12:18.069
pastor, but then took on their Sunday night service.

00:12:18.069 --> 00:12:21.129
And now he pastors the last time I heard a church he planted in L.A.

00:12:21.129 --> 00:12:24.259
Called the Core Church. So nevertheless, we show up on Sunday night.

00:12:24.259 --> 00:12:27.639
I still remember where I was sitting in the middle of the sanctuary next to their sound booth.

00:12:27.639 --> 00:12:32.359
He preached a sermon on 1 Corinthians 5, and the refrain of the sermon was.

00:12:32.739 --> 00:12:35.919
You know what you're doing is wrong, and you need to repent and turn to Jesus.

00:12:35.919 --> 00:12:39.889
And now he had allegorized that image that Paul uses of yeast working through

00:12:39.889 --> 00:12:43.936
the dough, like this idea of corporate sin in the corporate body of a local church.

00:12:44.052 --> 00:12:47.339
And he made it, you know, sin in your heart and how it infects your whole person.

00:12:47.339 --> 00:12:49.868
So, right doctrine, just not really what that text was talking about.

00:12:50.310 --> 00:12:53.796
But every word of that sermon hit me personally.

00:12:53.796 --> 00:12:57.636
In that church of several thousand people, it was as if God was alone speaking.

00:12:57.636 --> 00:13:01.736
And now to give my Christian school credit, I went to Arrowhead Christian Academy,

00:13:01.736 --> 00:13:04.676
which is now Redlands Christian School. It's a very fine Christian prep school

00:13:04.676 --> 00:13:08.206
of the Dutch Reformed tradition. We had good Bible-believing Bible teachers.

00:13:08.206 --> 00:13:12.248
We had chapels that, for the most part, had really solid speakers.

00:13:12.520 --> 00:13:15.166
And so I had heard the gospel. I'd read the gospel. Like the Bible says,

00:13:15.166 --> 00:13:17.276
I had eyes and didn't see and ears, but didn't hear.

00:13:17.276 --> 00:13:21.146
I had a heart that didn't believe. But that night, as is typical in a megachurch,

00:13:21.146 --> 00:13:23.256
they, you know, would have done the altar call.

00:13:23.256 --> 00:13:26.256
And in the altar call, I remember they brought out the guitar player,

00:13:26.256 --> 00:13:28.726
you know, the whole, there's one more person out there, that sort of thing.

00:13:28.726 --> 00:13:33.136
And it was in those final moments that God came after me.

00:13:33.136 --> 00:13:36.976
The only way I can describe it is analogically to say that like what you see

00:13:36.976 --> 00:13:40.986
of Lydia's conversion in Acts, that was similar to mine. And that as he's giving

00:13:40.986 --> 00:13:45.660
the gospel, there's just this weight of my sin was becoming ever clearer.

00:13:46.090 --> 00:13:50.894
And in a very serious and significant way, it was as if scales fell from my eyes.

00:13:50.894 --> 00:13:56.144
And for the first time, I saw the depth and gravity and heinousness of my sin,

00:13:56.144 --> 00:14:01.624
but the even deeper and richer and more beautiful grace of God in the person

00:14:01.624 --> 00:14:02.704
and work of Jesus Christ.

00:14:02.704 --> 00:14:06.724
And whether you want to say it was my spirit, it was God speaking to me very

00:14:06.724 --> 00:14:08.994
clearly, I've paid for your sins.

00:14:09.314 --> 00:14:12.044
I've risen from the grave. You need to turn and believe in me.

00:14:12.044 --> 00:14:15.674
And in that moment, I just wept profusely as a 17-year-old. And I,

00:14:15.674 --> 00:14:19.494
you know, I didn't raise my hand to like, you know, I want to say the sinner's prayer.

00:14:19.494 --> 00:14:22.544
I didn't walk the aisle. I didn't go down to the front. I didn't even pray the

00:14:22.544 --> 00:14:26.374
sinner's prayer. I just remember sitting in the pew weeping as Brianna and her

00:14:26.374 --> 00:14:29.184
mom, Brenda, put their arms around me and they prayed for me.

00:14:29.184 --> 00:14:32.614
And I remember praying, Lord, save me. I'm sorry for what I've done. Save me.

00:14:32.954 --> 00:14:36.544
And my life was radically changed to such an extent that when I went back to

00:14:36.544 --> 00:14:39.994
school over the next couple of weeks, people thought that I was now faking that

00:14:39.994 --> 00:14:43.724
I was a Christian to like make fun of all the Christians, that my mockery had

00:14:43.724 --> 00:14:47.904
entered a new stage of like in character, you know, method acting, I guess.

00:14:47.904 --> 00:14:52.534
But it was Dan Rice who, like Barnabas with Saul, took me by the hand,

00:14:52.534 --> 00:14:55.734
so to speak, and extended me the right hand of fellowship and helped to show

00:14:55.734 --> 00:14:57.074
other people, no, Cameron's legit.

00:14:57.074 --> 00:15:00.364
Like this is a legit conversion. And so much so that a couple months later,

00:15:00.364 --> 00:15:04.574
as we had the senior chapel, they then asked me to be the one who gave the little Bible message.

00:15:04.574 --> 00:15:07.574
And that was probably the second step in my call to ministry,

00:15:07.574 --> 00:15:10.364
where then I had all my, You know, teachers come up to me after and say,

00:15:10.364 --> 00:15:13.674
you know, that was so good. You need to go into ministry. God's calling you,

00:15:13.674 --> 00:15:16.535
young man. I have no idea how bad that message probably was.

00:15:17.172 --> 00:15:19.928
But it was good enough that at 17, 18 years old, everyone said,

00:15:19.928 --> 00:15:22.998
you know, God's put this calling on your life. And that was the beginning of

00:15:22.998 --> 00:15:26.398
then my eventual call to ministry. So that's the short version of that story.

00:15:26.398 --> 00:15:32.578
That's a fantastic story. And I note that it started with regular people,

00:15:32.918 --> 00:15:35.488
not pastors, not somebody on a church staff.

00:15:35.488 --> 00:15:41.638
So many testimonies start out that way, that people come to Jesus through the

00:15:41.638 --> 00:15:46.868
ministry of non-professional pastors and ministers.

00:15:46.868 --> 00:15:50.243
Well, like Jeff Orge did in his great book just a couple of years ago, Shadow Christians.

00:15:50.365 --> 00:15:53.138
The way Christianity expanded was through shadow Christians,

00:15:53.138 --> 00:15:57.668
nameless Christians, shadow faces that just faithfully do the work of God as

00:15:57.668 --> 00:16:00.348
they go about their lives, as they travel, as they start businesses,

00:16:00.348 --> 00:16:02.438
as they raise a family. And that was true for me.

00:16:02.818 --> 00:16:04.738
And now, mind you, I just want to put it like this. Trust me,

00:16:04.738 --> 00:16:08.668
at 17, 18 years old, no one in my life would have thought I'd be where I am

00:16:08.668 --> 00:16:12.238
today. No one. Because of just my plan in life was to be a lawyer,

00:16:12.238 --> 00:16:15.598
to make a lot of money and go live at the beach and live a playboy lifestyle.

00:16:16.318 --> 00:16:20.158
That was the height of my existence as someone who grew up in the hot Inland

00:16:20.158 --> 00:16:24.948
Empire. And the fact that now I'm, you know, in my mid-30s, I'm a seminary professor

00:16:24.948 --> 00:16:27.991
with a PhD in theology, no one would have thought that.

00:16:28.235 --> 00:16:32.828
It's just a testament to the reality of conversion and to the truth of the sovereignty

00:16:32.828 --> 00:16:36.176
of God and salvation and the reality of conversion and sanctification.

00:16:36.391 --> 00:16:41.760
Fantastic. Well, let's shift a little bit to Gateway and your role now.

00:16:42.022 --> 00:16:47.648
You are the third Gateway professor we have had on in the past month or two.

00:16:47.648 --> 00:16:48.908
Really? Yeah, literally.

00:16:48.908 --> 00:16:49.638
Who else has been on?

00:16:50.078 --> 00:16:51.513
The Doctors Ferguson.

00:16:51.652 --> 00:16:52.918
Really? Both of them?

00:16:52.918 --> 00:16:58.098
Yes, both were on and back to back, I think. Tell us what it's like to be the

00:16:58.098 --> 00:17:04.718
director of the San Leandro Gateway campus to do that, to lead that ministry.

00:17:05.158 --> 00:17:10.118
Yeah. So I need to be clear and specific with language. So it is a regional

00:17:10.118 --> 00:17:12.566
campus and not an extension center. Okay.

00:17:12.846 --> 00:17:16.599
And that's an important distinction to make because in a creditor's eyes,

00:17:16.599 --> 00:17:17.919
that makes all the difference.

00:17:17.919 --> 00:17:22.739
So the regional campus has full accreditation, both nationally from the Association

00:17:22.739 --> 00:17:25.789
of Theological Schools, that's ATS, and then regionally from WASC,

00:17:25.789 --> 00:17:27.699
the Western Association of Schools and Colleges.

00:17:27.699 --> 00:17:32.269
So that a regional campus is a full-fledged campus able to offer in-person full

00:17:32.269 --> 00:17:35.209
degrees, or an extension site or an extension center

00:17:35.509 --> 00:17:39.159
is not recognized as a legitimate, quote-unquote, campus in the eyes of the

00:17:39.159 --> 00:17:42.709
accreditors, and so then is derivative of a fully accredited campus,

00:17:42.709 --> 00:17:47.484
whether it's a regional campus or the main campus, then offer a part of a degree or part of training.

00:17:47.676 --> 00:17:50.429
Okay. So that's an important distinction to make so that people know as they're

00:17:50.429 --> 00:17:53.619
listening to this, that if you live in the broader San Francisco Bay Area,

00:17:53.619 --> 00:17:58.589
you have the capacity to come to the Gateway Campus now in San Leandro and earn the full MDiv or the.

00:17:59.069 --> 00:18:02.649
MA in Theology or what's known now as the MTS or the smallest degree being the

00:18:02.649 --> 00:18:04.459
MTE or the Master of Theological Essentials.

00:18:04.459 --> 00:18:07.099
And I could describe each of those degrees if you really wanted to get into

00:18:07.099 --> 00:18:09.189
the weeds and I can bore you to tears with that information.

00:18:09.509 --> 00:18:13.259
But someone could come and earn that entire degree over the course,

00:18:13.259 --> 00:18:15.879
the MDiv over four or five years if they went full-time.

00:18:15.879 --> 00:18:19.039
So that's a significant thing to recognize is that though we're not the main

00:18:19.039 --> 00:18:23.439
campus in Southern California or the former main campus up in Marin off seminary

00:18:23.439 --> 00:18:25.899
drive, that someone can still earn a full degree.

00:18:25.899 --> 00:18:29.719
It's just, we're not going to have as many classes offered per semester or as

00:18:29.719 --> 00:18:33.219
many different kinds of professors that you may want to take at the regional

00:18:33.219 --> 00:18:34.919
campus versus the main campus.

00:18:34.919 --> 00:18:39.469
But I will say this, that I've been here now for three years and I am now the

00:18:39.469 --> 00:18:42.169
third director. So we're just talking in threes. I'm the third person,

00:18:42.169 --> 00:18:47.251
third director, third year here. I'm just going to highlight the three as I'm into numerology.

00:18:47.872 --> 00:18:51.797
This is by far, and this is to not see- So you're half of 666.

00:18:51.797 --> 00:18:54.017
That's true. Whoa, whoa. Number of the beast. Yes.

00:18:54.397 --> 00:18:58.557
That's 616. We could talk about that either. So I'm not in any way trying to

00:18:58.557 --> 00:19:01.167
downplay what has happened over the last few years,

00:19:01.167 --> 00:19:06.367
but I would say that this fall is by far the strongest professor lineup we've

00:19:06.367 --> 00:19:09.637
ever had since I came here in the spring of 2023.

00:19:09.637 --> 00:19:12.717
I mean, the lineup is stellar. And so what I tell folks is that you're able

00:19:12.717 --> 00:19:16.367
to get a high quality education here in person at the regional campus in the

00:19:16.367 --> 00:19:19.667
Bay Area and have no lowering of the academic bar.

00:19:19.667 --> 00:19:21.967
Of course, there is a difference, like you said, from the main campus.

00:19:21.967 --> 00:19:25.673
We don't have as many students. We don't have as many extracurricular festivities

00:19:25.934 --> 00:19:30.184
as Dwight Schrute would have said on the office without all the pomp and frills, so to speak.

00:19:30.375 --> 00:19:32.977
Has all the necessary things, but without all the pomp and frills.

00:19:32.977 --> 00:19:36.827
So we have chapel once a month rather than every week. We have a couple events

00:19:36.827 --> 00:19:39.877
of a year versus an event every month like the main campus does.

00:19:40.257 --> 00:19:43.657
So that's some of the important differences. Now, being a director of a regional

00:19:43.657 --> 00:19:48.701
campus is quite interesting in that I have to wear a lot of different kinds of hats in my role

00:19:48.835 --> 00:19:52.207
so that unlike someone who's, you know, full-time faculty, they just focus on

00:19:52.207 --> 00:19:55.767
teaching, on research, on writing, preparing to teach grading.

00:19:55.767 --> 00:19:56.917
I don't have that luxury.

00:19:57.277 --> 00:20:01.177
I teach a reduced course load, and then I have many other responsibilities on

00:20:01.177 --> 00:20:04.057
my shoulders, like recruiting, you know, prospective students,

00:20:04.057 --> 00:20:06.877
networking with pastors and people who.

00:20:07.397 --> 00:20:12.077
Lead in ministry, who can send us students, raising money, managing the campus,

00:20:12.077 --> 00:20:13.977
recruiting faculty, raising money.

00:20:14.297 --> 00:20:17.937
There's a lot of different things that my role entails beyond just teaching,

00:20:17.937 --> 00:20:21.337
which I do need to do, and beyond research and writing, which I do need to do.

00:20:21.337 --> 00:20:26.317
So I have to do a lot of different things in my position. So to that end,

00:20:26.317 --> 00:20:29.270
you were talking about part of your role is recruiting. Yeah.

00:20:29.619 --> 00:20:32.439
So let's give you the opportunity to make a pitch right now.

00:20:32.439 --> 00:20:39.409
We have a lot of non-pastors, active church leaders that are listeners of this podcast.

00:20:39.409 --> 00:20:43.639
So in addition to the pastors, and there are pastors that listen to this podcast

00:20:43.639 --> 00:20:47.979
that are throughout our association that don't have a seminary degree.

00:20:47.979 --> 00:20:54.609
So why should a church leader or a pastor that has not yet received a seminary

00:20:54.609 --> 00:20:57.929
degree, why should they consider obtaining a seminary degree?

00:20:58.229 --> 00:21:02.879
And, you know, in fact, we'll even let you pitch that a little bit more specifically.

00:21:03.111 --> 00:21:09.084
Why should they consider Gateway when they could do so many other online programs

00:21:09.212 --> 00:21:14.066
at other schools or other places and stay in the Bay Area as well or in Central California?

00:21:14.066 --> 00:21:17.009
That's a great question. I mean, I get that question all the time,

00:21:17.009 --> 00:21:20.819
whether it's explicit or implicit over the last 11 years of recruiting on behalf

00:21:20.819 --> 00:21:25.269
of the seminary. Now, I want to first say something that will sound odd,

00:21:25.269 --> 00:21:28.209
but I do mean it, but I've been saying it for a long time.

00:21:28.549 --> 00:21:30.629
Seminary is not necessary. Wow.

00:21:31.109 --> 00:21:34.609
So that's the thing that- We have that on the record. You have that on record.

00:21:35.049 --> 00:21:36.839
Title. That'll be the title for the podcast.

00:21:36.839 --> 00:21:41.989
Seminary is not necessary. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can see the AI generated image

00:21:41.989 --> 00:21:43.816
right now. This is going to be so good.

00:21:44.569 --> 00:21:47.799
So let me nuance that, but I was going to give you guys some bold statements

00:21:47.799 --> 00:21:51.937
for clips. So there's a sense in which seminary is necessary and is not necessary.

00:21:52.680 --> 00:21:57.104
So in the sense of seminary is not necessary, it's not necessary to go to a

00:21:57.104 --> 00:22:00.624
school to learn how to do ministry or to learn theology, right?

00:22:00.624 --> 00:22:04.034
Because, you know, you've studied, you've studied that throughout church history

00:22:04.034 --> 00:22:07.334
and even in places in the world now, there's not the capacity or the ability

00:22:07.334 --> 00:22:08.834
to go to seminary, right?

00:22:08.834 --> 00:22:12.444
So you wouldn't say that in order to be a faithful pastor or a faithful missionary,

00:22:12.444 --> 00:22:14.554
you have to go to seminary, it's necessary.

00:22:14.554 --> 00:22:17.118
No, it's not necessary. People have been doing it all throughout time,

00:22:17.367 --> 00:22:19.494
faithfully, and not having gone to seminary.

00:22:19.494 --> 00:22:24.124
What is necessary and what is not negotiable is what Paul says in 2 Timothy

00:22:24.124 --> 00:22:27.954
2.2, where he says, Timothy, what you've heard me say in the presence of many

00:22:27.954 --> 00:22:30.674
witnesses, entrust to faithful men who can teach others also.

00:22:30.674 --> 00:22:36.164
And in that, there is a summary of what seminary ought to be or what biblical

00:22:36.164 --> 00:22:38.854
training in a college ought to be for ministry to Bible college.

00:22:38.854 --> 00:22:42.524
Namely, there has to be, if I can theologically synthesize that verse for you,

00:22:42.524 --> 00:22:46.454
there has to be a learning of truth, right?

00:22:46.454 --> 00:22:48.674
What Paul says, what you've heard me say in the presence of many witnesses,

00:22:48.674 --> 00:22:50.964
which we know from the rest of Acts, he says from, you know,

00:22:50.964 --> 00:22:53.954
canon to canon, I've not ceased to proclaim the whole counsel of God.

00:22:53.954 --> 00:22:57.514
He's faithfully divided the scriptures for his protégés so that you have to

00:22:57.514 --> 00:23:00.534
learn what the Bible is, what it teaches, its main doctrine.

00:23:00.534 --> 00:23:03.894
That's theological training. That's worldview training. Like we talked about

00:23:03.894 --> 00:23:05.716
earlier, Chris, that people have to know.

00:23:06.036 --> 00:23:10.354
The doctrines of the Bible to be able to pass on the faith because the faith

00:23:10.354 --> 00:23:12.654
is codified in propositions.

00:23:12.654 --> 00:23:15.534
Even though people hate propositional theology and propositional language,

00:23:15.534 --> 00:23:17.634
we talk about that, but all of this is propositional.

00:23:17.634 --> 00:23:21.114
You have to know the propositions of the Bible. That doesn't happen by osmosis.

00:23:21.114 --> 00:23:24.294
That has to happen by learning. It's not like that episode, Jimmy Neutron Boy

00:23:24.294 --> 00:23:27.464
Genius I watched as a kid, where he came up with an invention where he made

00:23:27.464 --> 00:23:30.330
books in a gum. You chew the gum, you learn the book. That's not how it happens.

00:23:30.556 --> 00:23:32.554
You have to learn it from someone else. You have to read yourself.

00:23:32.554 --> 00:23:35.644
You have to learn. But then secondly, Paul says to Timothy, you have to be able

00:23:35.644 --> 00:23:37.814
to entrust it to faithful men who can teach others also.

00:23:37.814 --> 00:23:42.034
As you know, that's multiple generations. Paul, Timothy, men, other men also.

00:23:42.034 --> 00:23:45.924
So four generations of ministry there. So then you also have to be trained in

00:23:45.924 --> 00:23:50.324
the capacities and in the aptitudes or the abilities to be able to replicate

00:23:50.324 --> 00:23:54.034
and pass on what you've learned in terms of faithful doctrine,

00:23:54.034 --> 00:23:55.524
faithful practice, right?

00:23:55.524 --> 00:23:59.464
So that's what is not negotiable. You have to, as a Christian,

00:23:59.844 --> 00:24:06.764
know sound theology and then have sound methodology to be able to make self-replicating disciples.

00:24:07.556 --> 00:24:12.164
And where seminary comes in then as a parachurch ministry is to be able to help

00:24:12.164 --> 00:24:14.185
the local church fulfill

00:24:14.487 --> 00:24:19.714
that aspect of its calling to raise up more faithful men and women who are called

00:24:19.714 --> 00:24:24.134
to full-time vocational ministry to be able to lead out in that regard.

00:24:24.134 --> 00:24:27.094
And that's, as we know, what parachurch ministries come to do is they've come

00:24:27.094 --> 00:24:32.224
alongside the local church to help the local church fulfill one of its God-given missions.

00:24:32.224 --> 00:24:35.864
And one of God's given missions of the church is to raise up and appoint elders,

00:24:35.864 --> 00:24:40.424
send out qualified men and women into the harvest field that's ready for heart.

00:24:40.424 --> 00:24:43.802
And that's what seminaries and Bible colleges do is they help the local church

00:24:44.099 --> 00:24:47.544
pastor train their future leaders, because not every pastor or church has the

00:24:47.544 --> 00:24:50.154
capacity to teach their young men or women Greek and Hebrew.

00:24:50.154 --> 00:24:55.714
Not every church has the capacity to train in church history or in the finer

00:24:55.714 --> 00:24:59.594
points of dogmatic theology or in backgrounds of the New Testament,

00:24:59.594 --> 00:25:03.534
which are all important and necessary things in the teaching ministry of the

00:25:03.534 --> 00:25:05.081
church. Just like it's helpful—.

00:25:05.401 --> 00:25:08.715
To come to the seminary and write your pastor, and there's faithful pastors

00:25:08.715 --> 00:25:13.205
in this room, who can help train their young men or women in how to rightly

00:25:13.205 --> 00:25:16.265
divide the word, how to counsel, how to share the gospel.

00:25:16.265 --> 00:25:19.635
And I think some of the best training happens on the job, so to speak,

00:25:19.635 --> 00:25:23.635
in your context with someone training you how to do it like a mentor-mentee relationship.

00:25:23.635 --> 00:25:28.085
However, it is helpful to then go to seminary to have someone like Jim Wilson,

00:25:28.085 --> 00:25:31.905
who's one of Gateway's most published professors, who's an expert in communication

00:25:31.905 --> 00:25:35.715
and in preaching, to help you think through how can I preach better or to learn

00:25:35.715 --> 00:25:40.405
from someone like the retired Don Dent who spent three decades on the mission field faithfully,

00:25:40.725 --> 00:25:42.365
you know, teaching others about Christ.

00:25:42.365 --> 00:25:45.605
Like there's something to be said about learning from a Don Dent about how to

00:25:45.605 --> 00:25:47.175
share your faith and how to make disciples.

00:25:47.175 --> 00:25:50.695
My former supervisor. Your former supervisor. Don Dent. Which was one of the

00:25:50.695 --> 00:25:53.745
most, let me just say this, like one of the most common questions I got on the

00:25:53.745 --> 00:25:57.815
road when I was recruiting was something about Dr. Orge. And then the next question,

00:25:57.815 --> 00:26:00.005
if it wasn't about Gateway, I was like, do you know Don Dent?

00:26:00.345 --> 00:26:03.885
So all that to say, to answer your question, that's what I mean in the sense

00:26:03.885 --> 00:26:06.015
that seminary is and is not necessary.

00:26:06.015 --> 00:26:11.275
That the need to train the God-called men and women to the ability to know the

00:26:11.275 --> 00:26:16.095
truth and to be able to pass on the truth and to live the truth, that's indispensable.

00:26:16.095 --> 00:26:20.135
But how that's done ought to be in the local church, but not every local church

00:26:20.135 --> 00:26:23.195
has the capacity to do that. So then seminaries and Bible colleges came along

00:26:23.195 --> 00:26:25.345
to help the local church fulfill that call.

00:26:25.345 --> 00:26:29.833
Okay, that's great. Let's keep talking about Gateway. but also San Leandro.

00:26:29.978 --> 00:26:33.155
Oh, I didn't give the pitch for why gateway in person. Thank you.

00:26:33.155 --> 00:26:36.345
I want to make sure I answer your questions. One of the things I despise in

00:26:36.345 --> 00:26:40.125
interviews or podcast things that I've watched is like anytime you have like

00:26:40.485 --> 00:26:43.175
a politician or sometimes a leader, they get asked a question and they just

00:26:43.175 --> 00:26:44.225
totally avoid the question.

00:26:45.165 --> 00:26:48.035
I don't ever- We thought you were avoiding this. We were like, really? Okay.

00:26:48.035 --> 00:26:51.205
No, no, no. I'd never want to be someone who could be accused of avoiding a question.

00:26:51.205 --> 00:26:54.525
So yes, Chris, your other question about why ought someone in the larger Bay

00:26:54.525 --> 00:26:59.395
Area come to do in-person education versus just do name the school online.

00:26:59.395 --> 00:27:03.448
I would say that there is something to be said about incarnate seminary training.

00:27:03.831 --> 00:27:06.788
Right. God didn't send an avatar. He didn't send a Zoom. He didn't have a Zoom

00:27:06.788 --> 00:27:10.668
call. He didn't, you know, simply set up something online. He himself came in

00:27:10.668 --> 00:27:12.875
the flesh. Granted, that wouldn't have been possible 2000 years ago.

00:27:13.101 --> 00:27:16.178
And that is my inputting the present into the past.

00:27:16.518 --> 00:27:19.748
I think you get my point. There's something to be said about incarnate ministry,

00:27:19.748 --> 00:27:22.528
even with as good as an online program can be.

00:27:22.528 --> 00:27:25.558
And our online program is great. A lot of schools have really great online programs.

00:27:25.558 --> 00:27:29.268
There's always something to be said about the tangible in-person experience

00:27:29.268 --> 00:27:33.798
of seminary that you can't replicate through the best online program.

00:27:33.798 --> 00:27:37.368
There's something about being in a room with brothers and sisters and engaging

00:27:37.368 --> 00:27:39.728
in the important truths that you engage in in seminary.

00:27:39.728 --> 00:27:43.048
So I would say, yeah, I mean, why would you want to go do something online if

00:27:43.048 --> 00:27:46.888
you have the capacity and the ability to do it in person?

00:27:46.888 --> 00:27:52.388
And by ability, I mean that there is a school within a reasonable driving or traveling distance.

00:27:52.388 --> 00:27:54.858
Then if you do, if you have that option, then you should do it.

00:27:54.858 --> 00:27:57.728
And then at least at Gateway here in the Bay Area, like I was just saying a

00:27:57.728 --> 00:28:01.338
moment ago, our lineup for the fall is stellar.

00:28:01.338 --> 00:28:06.758
I mean, I'd put up that lineup against any, not just teaching site, but any seminary.

00:28:06.758 --> 00:28:09.058
I mean, we're going to have Dan Gertner teach New Testament.

00:28:09.058 --> 00:28:10.378
He's coming in from Kentucky.

00:28:10.378 --> 00:28:14.118
We're going to have Ryan Rippey teaching educational ministry of the church.

00:28:14.118 --> 00:28:17.728
Todd Bolton from a big church up in the North Bay is going to be teaching Greek.

00:28:17.728 --> 00:28:20.868
We have a man whose name's currently escaping me, who leads a ministry called

00:28:20.868 --> 00:28:24.858
Biblical Counseling Worldwide, who's going to be teaching our biblical counseling class.

00:28:24.858 --> 00:28:29.878
And then Alan Cross from Petaluma is going to be teaching our missions class,

00:28:29.878 --> 00:28:34.184
stellar. And then as the least of all the apostles, I will be teaching theology. So...

00:28:34.695 --> 00:28:39.028
I mean, our lineup for this fall is very, very good. And so you're going to

00:28:39.028 --> 00:28:44.028
get a high level in-person experience from Bay, other than Dan Gertner,

00:28:44.028 --> 00:28:45.678
but I mean, that guy's a beast anyways.

00:28:46.278 --> 00:28:49.792
Come take Dan Gertner. You can take one class. Come take Dan Gertner's New Testament class.

00:28:50.123 --> 00:28:53.628
The guy who's rewriting the Word Biblical commentary on Mass.

00:28:53.628 --> 00:28:56.822
I mean, he's like a scholar's scholar, guys. I mean, he's at the top, cream of the crop.

00:28:57.025 --> 00:29:01.818
But you're going to get the best in-person education that Gateway has,

00:29:02.158 --> 00:29:03.538
I think, at the Bay Area campus.

00:29:03.538 --> 00:29:07.278
And as I say to our faculty, as I bring them on, as I say to our prospective

00:29:07.278 --> 00:29:10.978
students, what we're trying to cultivate at the Bay Area campus is a rigorous

00:29:10.978 --> 00:29:12.138
Christ-centered education.

00:29:12.138 --> 00:29:16.158
That Christ is the center of all that we're doing. It's a rigorous Christocentrism,

00:29:16.158 --> 00:29:20.128
as I like to describe it. So that Christ is rigorously held to as the center

00:29:20.128 --> 00:29:23.378
of all things, right? From him to him, through him are all things.

00:29:23.378 --> 00:29:25.476
Christ is all in all, as Paul would say.

00:29:25.760 --> 00:29:30.858
But that also we're trying to cultivate an atmosphere as a campus that has the

00:29:30.858 --> 00:29:36.408
kind of academic rigor that fulfills the command to love the Lord with all our mind and our strength.

00:29:36.408 --> 00:29:39.108
So that I tell prospective students who come to the campus, I mean,

00:29:39.108 --> 00:29:42.338
yeah, you're going to study things like Bible and theology or ministry or what

00:29:42.338 --> 00:29:47.588
have you, but the level of academic rigor that we're expecting of our faculty

00:29:47.588 --> 00:29:51.188
and of our students is Bay Area level master's training.

00:29:51.188 --> 00:29:55.138
So that I tell our faculty, you should be teaching these classes,

00:29:55.138 --> 00:29:57.698
have the sort of reading and assignment expectations.

00:29:57.698 --> 00:30:00.758
That'd be the case of you're studying a master's in philosophy or religion at

00:30:00.758 --> 00:30:03.598
Stanford, or you're getting a master's in English from Cal.

00:30:03.598 --> 00:30:07.898
Like it should be Bay Area level rigor. And considering who most of our students

00:30:07.898 --> 00:30:11.658
are, that's what they're expecting. They're expecting high level academic rigor

00:30:11.658 --> 00:30:14.228
at the master's level. And that's what you're going to get by coming to the

00:30:14.228 --> 00:30:15.617
Gateway campus in San Leandro.

00:30:15.826 --> 00:30:21.486
Yeah, the Bay Area is kind of like Cambridge or Oxford or whatever. or extremely academic.

00:30:21.869 --> 00:30:26.999
So I can tell you're not the biggest fan of online classes. You prefer face-to-face

00:30:27.719 --> 00:30:32.629
incarnational classes, and I totally get that. My seminary education was really

00:30:32.629 --> 00:30:35.199
a combination of pretty much every way it could happen.

00:30:35.679 --> 00:30:40.089
In-person, compressed interactive video from another campus,

00:30:40.089 --> 00:30:42.610
online classes, and intensives.

00:30:42.853 --> 00:30:47.462
So talk a little bit about, let's say there's a pastor outside of the Bay Area

00:30:47.740 --> 00:30:49.679
and far away from Ontario.

00:30:50.299 --> 00:30:56.689
What does Gateway offer for online classes? And I guess just listening to what

00:30:56.689 --> 00:30:58.038
you're saying, you would encourage

00:30:58.336 --> 00:31:03.679
somebody if they are going to take online classes to at least take some in person00:31:04.259 --> 00:31:06.892

if possible. So talk about that. How does Gateway approach that?00:31:07.182 --> 00:31:11.429

Yeah. So as Adam says, Dr. Groza says, we're trying to get more seminary to00:31:11.429 --> 00:31:15.939

more people. And so it used to be back in the day that like when Chris Cole00:31:15.939 --> 00:31:17.939

went to seminary, sorry, back in the day. I know.00:31:18.339 --> 00:31:20.739

I just realized I said that and I was totally ageist.00:31:21.159 --> 00:31:26.699

Totally ageist. You know, we did have dinosaur lifts that moved us from one,00:31:27.279 --> 00:31:31.049

Or like my uncles used to joke that they would walk to school uphill both ways00:31:31.049 --> 00:31:33.179

in the snow in July in Rialto.00:31:33.979 --> 00:31:38.099

So there was a time when seminary was only in person.00:31:38.099 --> 00:31:40.929

And the idea was that if you felt you needed to go to seminary,00:31:40.929 --> 00:31:43.359

you had to uproot your family if you didn't live within driving distance to00:31:43.359 --> 00:31:45.119

that campus and then move there.00:31:45.119 --> 00:31:48.909

And hopefully, once you've received your training, you would go back or you00:31:48.909 --> 00:31:49.939

would go to the mission field.00:31:49.939 --> 00:31:53.339

And what we've seen over the years in California, whether that's Cal Baptist00:31:53.339 --> 00:31:57.039

and the programs down there or Golden Gate in the past, is that the numbers00:31:57.039 --> 00:31:59.119

are less than stellar of when00:31:59.479 --> 00:32:03.549

people, at least I can speak of CBU because I went to CBU, of people who would00:32:03.549 --> 00:32:08.259

go from CBU to another seminary and not California to ever come back.00:32:08.259 --> 00:32:11.399

It's very hard to then get people to come back when you move somewhere where00:32:11.399 --> 00:32:15.049

you can buy a house for, like they're giving them away for free almost.00:32:15.049 --> 00:32:18.309

You know, you find a nice young lady, you get a nice salary from a church.00:32:18.309 --> 00:32:22.779

Like, well, why would I go back to then lead a cantankerous church of 40 people00:32:22.779 --> 00:32:26.549

where they're going to pay me $40,000 and the average living around me is $200,000.00:32:26.549 --> 00:32:29.949

Like that's a hard sell. But there was a time where that was the only option.00:32:29.949 --> 00:32:32.859

But when I was in seminary about a decade ago, like you, it seemed like there00:32:32.859 --> 00:32:37.169

was this movement to now start to have online, to have some different kinds of learning.00:32:37.169 --> 00:32:40.999

So when I went through Golden Gate, I was taking classes at our Brea campus,00:32:40.999 --> 00:32:42.619

the former Southern California campus.00:32:42.619 --> 00:32:47.309

I was then doing some online. And then when Ontario came, then I started to00:32:47.309 --> 00:32:51.339

do my classes there in addition to online. So gateways shifted over the years00:32:51.339 --> 00:32:54.259

to not only have our in-person campuses in Southern California,00:32:54.259 --> 00:32:57.161

the Bay, Arizona, Denver, and Vancouver, Washington, but.00:32:57.475 --> 00:33:02.364

In addition to Hawaii, a proliferation of teaching sites in like Sacramento00:33:02.364 --> 00:33:07.354

or Salt Lake City or Boston, Hong Kong or Taiwan, you can also do things online.00:33:07.354 --> 00:33:10.584

And so you can get your full MDiv, your full counseling degree,00:33:10.584 --> 00:33:14.354

whatever, fully online at Gateway, meaning you wouldn't have to come one day00:33:14.354 --> 00:33:15.604

in person, which is great.00:33:15.604 --> 00:33:20.134

Like if you live in the middle of nowhere, Alaska, or if you live in rural Montana,00:33:20.134 --> 00:33:21.344

like, and that's what I meant earlier.00:33:21.344 --> 00:33:24.824

There's not the ability for you to go to an in-person seminary.00:33:24.824 --> 00:33:28.874

It's just not practical. So that we do have that asynchronous online model,00:33:28.874 --> 00:33:33.444

which means for someone who needs to fit in seminary to the margins of their00:33:33.444 --> 00:33:35.734

life, that's the value of online education.00:33:35.734 --> 00:33:39.064

You can do it at 1 in the morning or 11 a.m. or 4 p.m.00:33:39.064 --> 00:33:43.004

Whenever your schedule for work and family permits. And that's the value of00:33:43.004 --> 00:33:45.064

online education is its flexibility.00:33:45.064 --> 00:33:48.654

The downside, of course, is then you lose something of the in-person experience00:33:48.654 --> 00:33:51.934

and the value of incarnate, you know, incarnate seminary training.00:33:51.934 --> 00:33:54.594

And that's the seesaw, right? Because then the downside of in-person is then,00:33:54.594 --> 00:33:55.884

yeah, you have to adjust your life a bit.00:33:55.884 --> 00:33:58.734

You have to then drive an hour. You then have to give up your Monday night or00:33:58.734 --> 00:33:59.874

your Tuesday night or what have.00:33:59.874 --> 00:34:02.894

But for those who need the online experience, we have the fully online programs00:34:02.894 --> 00:34:04.184

of all of our master's degrees.00:34:04.184 --> 00:34:08.674

We also then have the remote access classes, which allows you to try to split00:34:08.674 --> 00:34:13.184

the horns of that dilemma and be a live student via Zoom in our in-person classes00:34:13.184 --> 00:34:15.590

and anywhere on any of our campuses, rather.00:34:15.700 --> 00:34:19.648

And then lastly, as I've been mentioning, we are proliferating our resources.00:34:19.978 --> 00:34:23.619

Teaching sites. So that if like, you know, your church is down in the South00:34:23.619 --> 00:34:26.689

around Santa Maria with Daniel or San Luis Obispo.00:34:27.089 --> 00:34:30.109

Or, you know, around Monterey, and I've had those conversations with some of00:34:30.109 --> 00:34:34.329

those pastors, that if you can gather five or six men or women who want to take00:34:34.329 --> 00:34:36.579

classes for credit, we can start a teaching site.00:34:36.579 --> 00:34:41.039

We just need five or six people who want to take master's level credit for earning00:34:41.039 --> 00:34:42.549

a credit or earning a degree.00:34:42.549 --> 00:34:46.709

And we can start a teaching site in that location. Then you can just add auditors on top of that.00:34:46.709 --> 00:34:51.179

But the finances require five or six in-person students paying the tuition.00:34:51.179 --> 00:34:54.409

And so we can multiply teaching sites. You can take online, you can take remote,00:34:54.409 --> 00:34:57.149

you can take, you know, classes in person. If you live near a campus,00:34:57.149 --> 00:35:01.519

we have summer intensives. We're just trying to, again, multiply the avenues00:35:01.519 --> 00:35:04.496

of seminary training so that more people can get more training.00:35:04.734 --> 00:35:08.269

You know, I was super excited to hear you announce about Dr.00:35:08.269 --> 00:35:11.689

Alan Cross. He just got his doctorate degree coming and joining,00:35:12.049 --> 00:35:14.730

teaching a class this coming semester, right?00:35:14.852 --> 00:35:19.089

Alan, we've got to give him a shout out, is a fellow director of missions,00:35:19.089 --> 00:35:22.769

the director of missions for the association in Marin County.00:35:23.069 --> 00:35:27.909

So we love to hear of our DOMs made good. We are useful for some things.00:35:27.909 --> 00:35:31.524

Those of us that work on association-wide- Not a vestigial appendage. And everything else.00:35:31.914 --> 00:35:39.598

But I know that Alan has a deep passion for working out a theology of a biblical00:35:39.598 --> 00:35:42.678

response to immigration issues in the United States.00:35:42.678 --> 00:35:46.866

He's very clearly passionate about that. He's the author of one of the resolutions00:35:47.098 --> 00:35:49.738

that the SBC just debated and discussed.00:35:50.118 --> 00:35:54.098

He had part of the input into some of the resolution language that was engaged there.00:35:54.098 --> 00:36:00.738

So, you know, seminary is about live theological issues, not just sort of historic00:36:01.118 --> 00:36:03.358

or dead theological issues, right?00:36:03.358 --> 00:36:08.958

It's about the way we live out the reality of our belief in God right now.00:36:08.958 --> 00:36:12.738

Seminaries can help train towards that theological reality.00:36:12.738 --> 00:36:17.778

So if that's sort of the frame, what would you say are some of the main theological00:36:17.778 --> 00:36:25.188

issues that we need to address in the American West in the 21st century right now?00:36:25.188 --> 00:36:30.548

That you feel like, man, we've really got to get a grasp on sort of recognizing00:36:30.548 --> 00:36:33.158

these theological issues, addressing them.00:36:33.558 --> 00:36:37.978

Training and equipping pastors for them or church leaders for how to handle00:36:37.978 --> 00:36:43.148

those theological issues in their contemporary present church context.00:36:43.148 --> 00:36:47.218

Yeah. Well, let me add the comment about Alan Cross. So we will be having our00:36:47.218 --> 00:36:51.258

second annual theology conference, theology symposium in the Bay Area,00:36:51.258 --> 00:36:53.508

first weekend in October, October 2nd and 3rd.00:36:53.508 --> 00:36:56.988

And we're trying to address one of those pressing issues right now in America,00:36:56.988 --> 00:36:59.458

which is the question of politics and religion.00:36:59.458 --> 00:37:03.408

And so we will be stepping on that not controversial topic, the landmine hitting00:37:03.408 --> 00:37:08.208

the beehive. I am so excited to see how many pieces you come out of this conference00:37:08.208 --> 00:37:10.358

with and in. In tact. Yeah.00:37:10.708 --> 00:37:14.618

I've been saying that if I can- One piece for every tribe of Israel. That's right. Wow.00:37:14.998 --> 00:37:19.680

The 12 elect, the elect tribes. I want a little bit of Issachar and Zebulun, hopefully.00:37:20.249 --> 00:37:25.011

Maybe some nap to like. If everyone comes, and I'm hoping two to three hundred,00:37:25.011 --> 00:37:27.711

four hundred at most, I'm really aiming for the stars at this point.00:37:27.711 --> 00:37:30.971

I want everyone who comes to leave a little bit upset. If everyone leaves a00:37:30.971 --> 00:37:33.448

little upset, then I know we hit the central mark.00:37:33.779 --> 00:37:37.621

But I bring up Alan because he's going to be one of our rock star speakers and00:37:37.621 --> 00:37:41.701

he's going to be addressing that very question of how odd evangelical churches00:37:41.701 --> 00:37:45.561

think through the very touchy subject of receiving immigrants and even illegal00:37:45.561 --> 00:37:48.311

immigrants. What do you do with that? So he's one of our 12 speakers.00:37:48.731 --> 00:37:51.341

He's going to address that topic. We'll have someone else address the topic00:37:51.341 --> 00:37:54.721

of, was America founded as a Christian nation? I'll have someone address the00:37:54.721 --> 00:37:56.991

question of, what is a theology of free speech?00:37:57.671 --> 00:38:02.061

Another topic is going to be, does the Old Testament nation of Israel provide00:38:02.061 --> 00:38:07.351

the theological structures for a Christian nationalism in the 21st century?00:38:07.351 --> 00:38:09.151

That person is going to be saying no.00:38:09.491 --> 00:38:13.591

Then I'm going to have someone else argue that we ought, as Christians,00:38:13.591 --> 00:38:17.671

to have an obligation to support the nation of Israel. That's also going to00:38:17.671 --> 00:38:19.181

not be controversial, right? Wow.00:38:19.911 --> 00:38:23.311

Yeah. So it's going to be— You are going to end up in pieces.00:38:23.771 --> 00:38:28.261

Most likely. Right. Yeah. And then the name that's been confirmed that I can00:38:28.261 --> 00:38:31.641

then say is that the president of Nine Marks is going to be coming.00:38:31.641 --> 00:38:34.901

Interesting. Yeah. So Dr. Jonathan Lehman is going to come. And we're still00:38:34.901 --> 00:38:38.491

working out exactly what his topic is going to be. I have a meeting with him tomorrow over Zoom.00:38:38.831 --> 00:38:43.291

But I mean, this is going to get there's gonna be like national eyes on what we're going to be doing00:38:43.691 --> 00:38:46.601

Brad Dacus is going to be speaking at the Pacific Justice Institute So I mean,00:38:46.601 --> 00:38:50.951

this is going to be a conference not to miss October 2nd and 3rd in person in00:38:51.271 --> 00:38:53.474

in the Silicon Valley I'm still trying to figure out where it's going to be,00:38:53.852 --> 00:38:55.071

but it's going to be really really good.00:38:55.808 --> 00:39:00.990

So that symposium sounds great. I attended last year's symposium via YouTube,00:39:00.990 --> 00:39:03.660

and I actually hope to be there in person this year.00:39:03.660 --> 00:39:07.424

Last year's topic was all about Baptists and the Nicene Creed,00:39:07.598 --> 00:39:11.700

which was, I don't know, at the time, kind of mildly controversial.00:39:11.700 --> 00:39:16.830

But this year should be steaming hot. Well, speaking of controversy,00:39:16.830 --> 00:39:20.140

early on in the podcast, you heard Pastor Christopher and Dr.00:39:20.140 --> 00:39:24.045

Schweitzer talking about the Mark of the Beast 666.00:39:24.206 --> 00:39:30.625

And then Cameron said something enigmatic when he mentioned the number 616.00:39:30.939 --> 00:39:34.467

What was all that about? Well, I know it was a lighthearted comment,00:39:34.467 --> 00:39:38.737

but it's worth discussing in a slightly deeper way because I myself am pretty00:39:38.737 --> 00:39:44.607

fascinated by eschatology or the study of the last things or end times.00:39:44.607 --> 00:39:51.157

And that number, 666 or 616, comes from Revelation 13.00:39:51.157 --> 00:39:55.257

And then Revelation 14 kind of describes its significance. Let's read about00:39:55.257 --> 00:40:00.677

it. This is Revelation 13, verse 11. John says, I saw a second beast coming out of the earth.00:40:00.997 --> 00:40:04.377

It had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon.00:40:04.377 --> 00:40:09.947

It exercised all the authority of the first beast on its behalf and made the00:40:09.947 --> 00:40:16.380

earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast whose fatal wound had been healed.00:40:16.548 --> 00:40:20.887

Skipping down to verse 16, it also forced all people, great and small,00:40:20.887 --> 00:40:25.157

rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on00:40:25.157 --> 00:40:30.201

their foreheads so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is00:40:30.433 --> 00:40:34.386

the name of the beast or the number of its name.00:40:34.578 --> 00:40:36.457

This calls for wisdom.00:40:36.877 --> 00:40:41.584

Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast,00:40:41.747 --> 00:40:44.017

for it is the number of a man.00:40:44.397 --> 00:40:51.077

That number is 666. And then we go down to Revelation 14 verse 9.00:40:51.077 --> 00:40:52.515

We find out a little bit more.00:40:52.706 --> 00:40:56.097

And it says, A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice,00:40:56.097 --> 00:41:01.977

if anyone worships the beast in its image and receives its mark on their forehead00:41:01.977 --> 00:41:06.777

or on their hand, they too will drink the wine of God's fury which has been00:41:06.777 --> 00:41:09.733

poured full strength into the cup of his wrath.00:41:09.959 --> 00:41:14.847

They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels00:41:14.847 --> 00:41:20.216

and of the Lamb, and the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever.00:41:20.472 --> 00:41:25.377

There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast in its image00:41:25.377 --> 00:41:29.154

or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.00:41:29.439 --> 00:41:33.304

This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God.00:41:33.613 --> 00:41:37.003

Who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.00:41:37.142 --> 00:41:42.741

So, hey, that's a big deal, right? Now, if you are an amillennialist,00:41:42.741 --> 00:41:47.451

and a lot of academics and scholars are, you probably aren't very concerned00:41:47.451 --> 00:41:50.633

about the literal meaning of 666 or 616,00:41:50.870 --> 00:41:55.981

because the amillennialist view holds that the 1,000-year reign of Christ mentioned00:41:55.981 --> 00:41:58.271

in the book of Revelation is not a00:41:58.791 --> 00:42:05.331

Literal future earthly kingdom, but more of a symbolic representation of the present church age.00:42:05.331 --> 00:42:10.441

And in that perspective, Jesus is currently reigning spiritually from heaven,00:42:10.441 --> 00:42:14.881

and Satan has already been bound to a greater degree to prevent him from stopping00:42:14.881 --> 00:42:16.007

the spread of the gospel.00:42:16.129 --> 00:42:21.071

This period of spiritual rule spans from Christ's first coming to his second00:42:21.071 --> 00:42:26.241

coming, and ultimately history will culminate in a single glorious return of00:42:26.241 --> 00:42:29.611

Jesus, followed by the general resurrection, the final00:42:30.031 --> 00:42:31.721

Judgment, and the eternal state.00:42:31.721 --> 00:42:38.517

And amillennialists generally view the Mark of the Beast like a spiritual representation00:42:38.656 --> 00:42:45.421

of allegiance to worldly anti-Christian powers and the ideologies of Satan.00:42:45.421 --> 00:42:49.131

And they typically sort of view the mark on the forehead and the mark on the00:42:49.131 --> 00:42:51.195

hand in very symbolic ways.00:42:51.432 --> 00:42:56.161

Now, others view 666 and the Mark of the Beast much more literally.00:42:56.161 --> 00:43:01.631

Many, many lines of ink have been spilled over the years talking about the Mark00:43:01.631 --> 00:43:06.033

of the Beast, and there are so many theories about it, ranging from the00:43:06.339 --> 00:43:10.753

somewhat biblically plausible to the utterly absurd.00:43:10.753 --> 00:43:16.403

And I recall growing up in the 80s that many were convinced that UPC codes,00:43:16.403 --> 00:43:20.263

which are like the barcodes that are found on things you buy at the store,00:43:20.263 --> 00:43:24.383

that's what they scan at the register, they thought those were the mark of the beast.00:43:24.383 --> 00:43:29.943

Others believed it would be like an injectable chip or something along those lines.00:43:29.943 --> 00:43:35.113

And the Greek word there for mark is the word keragma, and it means like a stamp00:43:35.113 --> 00:43:40.903

or a mark, and it comes from a word that means like trench, as in digging.00:43:40.903 --> 00:43:48.393

So very likely we're talking about possibly some sort of surgery or maybe some00:43:48.393 --> 00:43:53.383

sort of engraving or etching along the lines of a tattoo or something like that.00:43:53.743 --> 00:43:59.103

I suppose an implantable chip in the futurist view, thinking that Revelation00:43:59.103 --> 00:44:00.608

is talking about the future.00:44:00.934 --> 00:44:05.283

Could qualify here, but it is a bit of a stretch.00:44:05.283 --> 00:44:09.213

So what exactly is the mark of the beast? And the answer, of course,00:44:09.213 --> 00:44:11.383

is we don't know for sure.00:44:11.383 --> 00:44:17.503

And I am skeptical of anybody who claims to know exactly because we're just00:44:17.503 --> 00:44:22.803

not given enough information in that passage to know what it's talking about.00:44:22.803 --> 00:44:27.023

And as I mentioned earlier, there's all sorts of controversy about how exactly00:44:27.023 --> 00:44:31.868

Christians today should interpret the book of Revelation in general.00:44:32.019 --> 00:44:37.293

That said, if it is a futurist book pointing to things that are going to happen00:44:37.293 --> 00:44:43.960

in the future, we're given enough information to probably know the mark of the beast when we see it,00:44:44.215 --> 00:44:49.306

and I don't think we've seen it yet, at least not in widespread distribution.00:44:49.469 --> 00:44:53.773

I believe it will be very, very clear, and not something that you can be like00:44:53.773 --> 00:44:58.663

tricked into getting like some sort of injection or thing that's given to you by deceit.00:44:58.663 --> 00:45:02.143

Of course, in the early 2020s, some people were thinking that the mark of the00:45:02.143 --> 00:45:05.023

beast was a COVID vaccine or something like that.00:45:05.023 --> 00:45:09.664

And no matter what you think about vaccines or the COVID vaccine in general,00:45:09.780 --> 00:45:15.093

these are not the mark of the beast. And only really, really bad exegesis of00:45:15.093 --> 00:45:18.214

these passages can get you to that conclusion. The00:45:18.590 --> 00:45:23.375

Passage from Mark 13 and Mark 14 seem to indicate that the Mark of the Beast00:45:23.375 --> 00:45:30.095

will be like received with a conscious submission to it and not ignorantly,00:45:30.095 --> 00:45:32.115

not like a huge deception.00:45:32.115 --> 00:45:36.135

And so what the passage says is it'll be on the right hand of the forehead.00:45:36.135 --> 00:45:41.535

It will be economic in some ways, like there'll be a financial kind of system00:45:41.535 --> 00:45:45.165

set up where you can't buy or sell without the mark.00:45:45.165 --> 00:45:50.325

And I kind of keep up with anti-fraud technology because I think that's one00:45:50.325 --> 00:45:53.915

possible way we could get to a mark of the beast.00:45:53.915 --> 00:45:57.675

I could see a leader or government attempting to make money,00:45:57.675 --> 00:46:03.315

cash obsolete somehow, and require some sort of unique ID or payment,00:46:03.715 --> 00:46:06.084

be somehow attached to a person.00:46:06.322 --> 00:46:11.175

And the way they kind of get that across to people is sort of an anti-fraud thing.00:46:11.715 --> 00:46:15.715

Maybe. The mark will somehow tie back into00:46:16.255 --> 00:46:20.815

The beast, the Antichrist, the man of lawlessness, and perhaps the kingdom or00:46:20.815 --> 00:46:26.905

country or group of countries that that individual might be leading in a futurist interpretation.00:46:27.114 --> 00:46:33.622

And even if we see the mark coming, Christians will not be able to prevent it00:46:33.784 --> 00:46:38.925

because God has ordained these events and they aren't written down in the Bible00:46:38.925 --> 00:46:40.655

for us to try to stop them.00:46:40.655 --> 00:46:45.345

We have no command to fight against the implementation of these technologies.00:46:45.345 --> 00:46:49.835

And I don't know, do so if you feel led or whatever. But the point of the passage is very simple.00:46:49.835 --> 00:46:55.315

Don't get the mark of the beast. The point is not fight against every technological00:46:55.315 --> 00:46:57.565

innovation that could be the mark.00:46:57.565 --> 00:47:01.405

God's word is going to come to pass. And I guess bottom line,00:47:01.405 --> 00:47:08.915

if we take this book to be literal and speaking of the future, And I generally do,00:47:09.495 --> 00:47:15.715

But with a very loose hand because the amillennialist perspective is fairly persuasive.00:47:15.715 --> 00:47:22.200

I'm a historic premillennialist, but I am open to other views because...00:47:22.676 --> 00:47:27.382

It's a book that's not very super clear how we should take it.00:47:27.382 --> 00:47:31.692

So, bottom line, don't get a mark, chip, tattoo, engraving, implant,00:47:31.692 --> 00:47:36.052

or whatever on your wrist, arm, or forehead that has anything to do with buying00:47:36.052 --> 00:47:40.007

and selling. And I don't really see that going on right now.00:47:40.200 --> 00:47:48.582

But that's not the point. The point is the enigmatic 666 or 616 that Cameron brought up earlier.00:47:48.902 --> 00:47:53.762

As you can imagine, for hundreds of years, over a thousand years,00:47:53.762 --> 00:47:59.262

nearly two thousand years, Christians have discussed that number extensively00:47:59.582 --> 00:48:01.722

and fiercely debated its meaning.00:48:01.722 --> 00:48:05.702

Many believe that John, the writer of Revelation, intended the number to be00:48:06.122 --> 00:48:11.550

used in a way as like a code, and therefore many people use gematria, which is like00:48:11.846 --> 00:48:17.012

a way of assigning a number to letters and fashioning a sort of code as a way00:48:17.012 --> 00:48:21.582

to interpret 666, and there's a lot of problems with that00:48:21.922 --> 00:48:28.152

approach, but John never tells us exactly how 666 is the number of the name00:48:28.152 --> 00:48:31.442

of the beast and never tells us what code he might be using.00:48:31.442 --> 00:48:37.782

And Christians have guessed like so many things over the years of what he's been thinking.00:48:37.782 --> 00:48:44.072

And many have definitively declared that Nero or Roman Catholics or this or00:48:44.072 --> 00:48:50.002

that pope or Mikhail Gorbachev or Ronald Wilson Reagan, each00:48:50.542 --> 00:48:56.582

Letter, each of his names has six letters or Hitler or Stalin or whoever,00:48:57.082 --> 00:48:58.682

this president, that president,00:48:59.262 --> 00:49:05.422

Or the Antichrist or the beast or whatever, somehow making their name match up to 666.00:49:05.422 --> 00:49:07.342

And that gets us to the real question.00:49:07.481 --> 00:49:09.942

Is the number of the beast 666?00:49:10.262 --> 00:49:15.149

616 or something different. And here's the thing.00:49:15.589 --> 00:49:24.549

Some ancient manuscripts of the book of Revelation read 616, not 666.00:49:24.549 --> 00:49:28.789

And this, of course, is not a hidden conspiracy theory. We've known about this00:49:28.789 --> 00:49:32.909

for a long, long time. It doesn't mean your Bible is wrong or that somebody00:49:32.909 --> 00:49:38.074

recently discovered some sort of secret conspiracy in the basement of the Vatican.00:49:38.266 --> 00:49:44.389

Most manuscripts from back in the day in early times, the Greek manuscripts,00:49:44.389 --> 00:49:45.629

the Latin manuscripts, etc.,00:49:46.309 --> 00:49:54.949

Favor 666, but 616 is a genuine early textual variant.00:49:55.289 --> 00:50:04.519

And in fact, Papyrus 115, which dates back to the 200s, is the oldest surviving00:50:04.519 --> 00:50:07.661

manuscript of the book of Revelation that we have.00:50:07.783 --> 00:50:13.055

It is stored at the Oxford University Asmolian Museum and00:50:13.500 --> 00:50:22.849

It writes the number 616. So literally the earliest copy of the book of Revelation we have has 616.00:50:22.849 --> 00:50:28.704

And also Codex Ephraimia Rescriptus, Codex C, which is from the 400s.00:50:28.931 --> 00:50:34.089

It's located in Paris. It also has 616.00:50:34.089 --> 00:50:39.879

And Bruce Metzger is one of the great evangelical textual critics of the 20th century.00:50:39.879 --> 00:50:46.509

He says this, and I think it's a really good explanation. He said that the Greek form of Nero00:50:46.889 --> 00:50:53.659

Caesar, written in Hebrew characters, is equivalent to 666, whereas the Latin00:50:53.659 --> 00:50:57.329

form is equivalent to 616.00:50:57.329 --> 00:51:02.079

In other words, there's a slightly different spelling of Nero Caesar in either00:51:02.079 --> 00:51:06.209

language could produce 666 or 616.00:51:06.209 --> 00:51:10.199

And that leads to the first major theory, the preterist theory.00:51:10.199 --> 00:51:15.456

And a preterist is somebody who views most of what's in the book of Revelation00:51:15.612 --> 00:51:20.018

as having already happened. It's not the futurist view.00:51:20.251 --> 00:51:26.889

It sees Revelation as mostly, not completely, but mostly fulfilled in the first century.00:51:26.889 --> 00:51:32.249

And many preterist scholars think that John was pointing to Caesar Nero,00:51:32.569 --> 00:51:39.215

or perhaps to a symbol, to Nero is like a type or a symbol of the persecuting Roman Empire.00:51:39.424 --> 00:51:44.574

Nero was sort of the first Christian monster under the bed from a00:51:44.736 --> 00:51:49.689

human perspective for early Christians because he was a ruler who was associated00:51:49.689 --> 00:51:55.129

with brutality, persecution, imperial power, blasphemous claims,00:51:55.129 --> 00:51:56.409

all of that kind of stuff.00:51:56.409 --> 00:51:59.509

And the idea that Nero is00:52:00.209 --> 00:52:05.689

666 or 616 doesn't really settle every question because, yes,00:52:05.689 --> 00:52:07.689

Revelation was written to00:52:08.189 --> 00:52:12.239

real first century Christians and real first century churches,00:52:12.239 --> 00:52:18.114

but it very clearly looks ahead to the final victory and return of Christ, which,00:52:18.440 --> 00:52:22.702

I don't think it's happened yet, and most biblical teachers don't think it's00:52:22.702 --> 00:52:29.772

happened yet, and that's why many futurists see the beast as a coming sort of final antichrist.00:52:30.272 --> 00:52:37.392

First John tells us there's been several antichrists, and most futurists expect one big major00:52:38.397 --> 00:52:44.292

Final boss kind of beast antichrist deal, a real future ruler who will demand00:52:44.292 --> 00:52:48.962

worship and wield political, religious, and economic power.00:52:48.962 --> 00:52:55.742

And Revelation scholar Grant Osborne says the coming Antichrist would be a Nero-like00:52:55.742 --> 00:53:01.175

figure who would be the anti-type of that evil anti-Christian.00:53:01.447 --> 00:53:06.355

And historicist interpreters kind of view 666 sort of differently.00:53:06.355 --> 00:53:10.365

They see the beast imagery as unfolding through the history of the church,00:53:10.365 --> 00:53:15.235

especially through recurring systems where political power, false religion,00:53:15.235 --> 00:53:20.455

coercion, persecution, kind of stand up against Christ's people.00:53:20.455 --> 00:53:25.465

And a lot of Protestants over the years have applied that to the Roman Catholic00:53:25.465 --> 00:53:32.965

papacy or to any one of multiple corrupt kind of church state systems.00:53:32.965 --> 00:53:38.425

And their warning is worth hearing and thinking about, even when we disagree00:53:38.425 --> 00:53:41.995

with their specific identifications.00:53:42.151 --> 00:53:49.365

Tyranny doesn't always come in a villain costume or a supervillain kind of appearance.00:53:49.365 --> 00:53:54.783

Sometimes evil comes carrying a Bible, a flag, or a sword and00:53:54.940 --> 00:54:02.915

demanding unquestioning loyalty while deriving some of his power and authority00:54:02.915 --> 00:54:05.195

from a religious perspective.00:54:05.195 --> 00:54:09.895

Then there's the symbolic or idealist approach to Revelation. G.K.00:54:10.335 --> 00:54:16.845

Beale kind of goes along with that. And he says 666 represents the completeness00:54:16.845 --> 00:54:19.555

of sinful incompleteness.00:54:19.875 --> 00:54:25.305

Six falls short of seven and three sixes may sort of indicate a counterfeit00:54:25.305 --> 00:54:31.845

trinity, which is evil pretending to be divine, but always sort of falling short.00:54:31.845 --> 00:54:36.675

And so the beast can look impressive and can do miracles and be powerful,00:54:36.675 --> 00:54:39.695

but he's not to the level of Jesus.00:54:39.695 --> 00:54:45.625

And that brings us to really a good pastoral conclusion, whatever view you hold,00:54:45.625 --> 00:54:47.835

and there's so many of them.00:54:47.835 --> 00:54:53.765

The mark of the beast in Revelation is tied to worship, and it's tied to allegiance,00:54:53.765 --> 00:54:57.725

and it's tied to oaths, and it's tied to compromise.00:54:57.725 --> 00:54:59.595

And scholar Craig Keener says00:54:59.915 --> 00:55:06.124

John is writing less to satisfy our precise end-time curiosity itself.00:55:06.314 --> 00:55:12.036

And more to warn us about compromise. So we probably shouldn't panic every time00:55:12.036 --> 00:55:14.236

a new technology comes around.00:55:14.236 --> 00:55:20.696

Don't assume the next debit card technology or barcode or whatever app can accidentally00:55:20.696 --> 00:55:24.206

separate a believer from Christ for eternity.00:55:24.404 --> 00:55:28.456

But it's worth asking a deeper question. What am I being pressured to worship?00:55:28.546 --> 00:55:35.186

Where am I being tempted to compromise? because Revelation is not mainly trying00:55:35.186 --> 00:55:37.336

to make us afraid of the future.00:55:37.517 --> 00:55:41.466

It's calling us to be faithful to Jesus right now in the present,00:55:41.466 --> 00:55:47.596

to be watchful and waiting for his return, not trying to calculate the precise00:55:47.596 --> 00:55:52.227

day, hour, minute, second, or whatever, but we are to be doing things.00:55:52.501 --> 00:55:58.028

The great commission work of the master while we wait for his return.00:55:58.368 --> 00:56:03.518

So if the futurist perspective on Revelation is correct, then I believe when00:56:03.518 --> 00:56:08.018

the Antichrist or beast comes onto the scene, it will be a whole lot clearer00:56:08.018 --> 00:56:11.098

how the number 666 relates to him.00:56:11.098 --> 00:56:16.588

And on that thought, I really agree with this guy, Andrew of Cesarea,00:56:16.588 --> 00:56:20.708

who was a bishop from the 500s, like over a thousand years ago.00:56:20.708 --> 00:56:23.868

And this is what he says about Revelation way back when.00:56:23.868 --> 00:56:29.138

For the sober-minded, time and experience will reveal the actual significance00:56:29.138 --> 00:56:33.198

of the number of the beast and the truth of whatever has been written about it.00:56:33.198 --> 00:56:39.258

For were it necessary that such a name be clearly known, John the Seer would00:56:39.258 --> 00:56:44.468

have revealed it. But Divine Grace did not consent that the name of the Destroyer00:56:44.468 --> 00:56:47.576

be noted in the Divine Book. So, you know what?00:56:47.750 --> 00:56:52.798

We don't have to know. Let me close out by giving you an update on what's going00:56:52.798 --> 00:56:54.988

on with the Great Commission Association.00:56:55.368 --> 00:57:01.088

We have an evangelism workshop coming up in Gilroy, California,00:57:01.468 --> 00:57:05.898

August 1st. Let me read a little blurb about it. Need help equipping your church00:57:05.898 --> 00:57:08.345

members to proclaim the gospel as they go?00:57:08.554 --> 00:57:11.418

Well, we have the perfect workshop for you.00:57:11.418 --> 00:57:16.908

Learn a simple and holistic process to help followers of Jesus begin and sustain00:57:16.908 --> 00:57:19.138

a culture of evangelism.00:57:19.138 --> 00:57:24.908

The plan is to train on the effective ways to engage and create in your church00:57:24.908 --> 00:57:27.241

a culture of evangelism.00:57:27.496 --> 00:57:34.474

And our target is church members, not just leaders. Join us for an amazing event all about your church.00:57:34.607 --> 00:57:39.048

And there will be evangelism workshops in English and Spanish.00:57:39.245 --> 00:57:41.294

It costs nothing to attend.00:57:41.521 --> 00:57:45.300

It's August 1st at Gilroy First Baptist Church.00:57:45.583 --> 00:57:51.884

Register at gcasbc.org. And if you're a Southern Baptist,00:57:51.884 --> 00:57:57.344

California pastor, or church leader in UCOM, your church will be eligible to00:57:57.344 --> 00:58:01.302

receive a $1,000, no-strings-attached00:58:01.441 --> 00:58:06.532

evangelism grant that you can spend on outreach this year.00:58:06.654 --> 00:58:11.994

And I can tell you, I've been to these evangelism conferences before and legit00:58:11.994 --> 00:58:16.320

got that $1,000 check in the mail a few weeks after going.00:58:16.598 --> 00:58:19.514

So it's a real deal. Well, that's all for me.00:58:19.854 --> 00:58:23.495

Good day to you. We'll see you next week and Godspeed.