Aug. 2, 2026

Leading through Change. How Does Church Transformation Happen? Church Turnaround Stories: What is Church Replanting All About? Soda Review: “When I look at this can, it does not scream Ramadan to me.”

Leading through Change. How Does Church Transformation Happen? Church Turnaround Stories: What is Church Replanting All About? Soda Review: “When I look at this can, it does not scream Ramadan to me.”
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Today we talk about change, transformation, church death, church renewal, church replanting and revitalization with Pastor Michael Denton of First Baptist Nipomo and Pastor Jeff Woolstenhulme of Foothills Baptist in Los Altos.

A church in FBC Nipomo that had 6 members left, and a church in Foothills Baptist that had 8 members - both on the verge of death very recently- now both churches are on the road to recovery. How could that happen both spiritually and practically?

God is often more concerned about our character and godliness than our mission and success.

Pro tips for church leaders and pastors leading through any kind of change.

1. OVERcommunicate and continue communicating.

2. Grieve the thing that needs to go in preparation for the next thing.

3. Know your priorities and prioritize your schedule.

4. Preach to 8 people like you’d preach to 100.

5. Remember, if you are changing, revitalizing, or replanting, you are in it for the long haul and lean into slow and steady growth.

How to preach through the book of Deuteronomy in FIVE sermons!

If we force change, such change will be human-powered and therefore won’t last.

Why pastors generally lean into doing more than praying, and why that mindset is dangerous to our longterm health and the health of our church! Prayer does the work. Prayer changes people.

“When I look at this can, it does not scream Ramadan to me.”

Kerry Goode’s testimony.

How can a church understand when the diagnosis is bad?

WEBVTT

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We're talking today with two Central California pastors, Pastor Jeff and Pastor

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Michael, about how change and transformation happens in the church.

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And the thing about it is, if we force those changes, if we shove them through

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with our own power, they're not going to work out as Pastor Michael talks about here.

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Pastors talk about nickels and noses or butts in seats and bucks in the plate or whatever you want.

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You can't expect those things to change without a heart change first.

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It will be temporal, it will be our doing, and I don't want anything of it.

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It will have the smell of human on it if we can just force it.

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Leaders and pastors find health, encouragement, practical advice,

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soul care, and resources that work together to build up your local fellowship

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and the broader kingdom of God.

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Join hosts, Pastor Chris Cole and Dr. Chase Thompson from the Great Commission

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Association, led by Dr. Mike Stewart, as they explore the frontiers of ministry

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and aim for the goal of making every church flourish.

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Hello, everybody, and welcome in to episode number 29 of the Every Church Flourishing podcast.

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I am your host, Chase Thompson. I'm a California pastor.

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I'm going to be joined in just a moment by Pastor Christopher Cole,

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who is with the Great Commission Association, a family of churches that spread

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out all over North and Central California.

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If you're in our area or anywhere near it, we would love to partner with you,

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and I will invite you to check out our website,

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gcasbc.org, to find out more information about that.

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We've got two other California pastors joining us today, four California pastors in total.

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It might be this week's sign of the apocalypse, but Pastor Michael Denton from

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First Baptist Napomo and Pastor Jeff Wollstenhoom from Foothill Baptist in Los Altos is joining us.

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And we're going to be talking about something that is universally important

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in every church, the process of change and transformation.

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We're going to talk about it in the context of church replanting,

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but every pastor and leader listening will be able to benefit from the wisdom

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that you're going to hear on the process of change.

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How does transformation happen? What fuels it? What part does prayer play in?

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And that whole process. How can you lead and pastor the church through change?

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What are some tips that will help you bring about healthy and needed changes

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in the church you're part of?

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It's a great discussion. I just was pumped to be a part of it.

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Let's dive in. All right. We have the privilege to be joined by a couple of

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our Great Commission Association pastors who are serving right now in replant situations.

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Not only are their churches interesting and their stories interesting,

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but their hobbies are kind of interesting too.

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So I am really looking forward to talking to Pastor Michael and Pastor Jeff

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about replanting and about surfing and about water polo and all sorts of things like that.

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You know, Chase, I'm super excited that we We get to have these guys on the

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show as a part of our series on

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our GCA Renew strategy, and in particular, how GCA has been involved in church

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replanting in the past few years.

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For about six years now, we've been thinking seriously about the work that God

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has called us to do in helping work with churches that are plateaued,

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in decline, or maybe even

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approaching really spiritual

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Death as a church.

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And so we've been thinking about it, praying about it. And then over the past

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few years, we've been developing out an intentional strategy to help churches engage in

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becoming a church that has been brought back to life, brought back to flourishing and to health.

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And cornerstone to that strategy is finding guys who want to serve and are called

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to serve, gifted to serve as replanters.

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And we'll talk more about the difference between replanters,

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revitalizers on either this episode or some others in this series.

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But these two guys, I am so proud of. I think they are amazing.

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They are the best of the best.

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And we are stoked to have them in our association.

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And they serve in very different environments, different contexts,

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but they're both doing similar work in replanting our churches.

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Pastor Michael's been doing this now for over four years.

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And Pastor Jeff's just a few months into his actual first lead replanter role.

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So we'll get some of that information out of them today to talk about how their

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stories are similar and different, but I'm excited to have them on the show.

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Yeah, me too. And particularly, as I said earlier, their hobbies.

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Pastor Michael is known as the surf pastor.

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I'll tell you this real quick before I ask you for a story, Pastor Michael, I'm

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When I was in high school, I grew up in Birmingham, Alabama,

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which is about five hours from the beach, and I was looking for an identity.

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I played a little bit of football, but not enough to have that as my identity.

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So I started buying all the surfing clothes I could, Ocean Pacific,

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Hobie, Panama Jack, et cetera, and I wore surfing clothes every time I could to my school.

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And people eventually just assumed with a little help on my part that I was

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a surfer because I went to the beach a lot and I was pretty tan.

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But I could not surf five feet for a million dollars.

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I was the biggest poser in Birmingham. But you're not a poser.

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You're a real surfer. So give us either a surfing story or a shark story.

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Sure. I'm becoming more of a poser the older I get and the more my kids are

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able to surf better than me.

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So I definitely enjoy as much as I can getting out there in the water still.

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So I think catching the wave of my life off of St. Thomas Island,

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they have one surf spot there called Hole Bay.

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It is after a hurricane and natives were encouraging me to not go in the water.

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And I only had one day there. So I did and caught the wave of my life was cool.

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But for any surfer, the day that you see a dorsal fin cut the water and you

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feel the invitation to walk on water back to the beach as fast as you can,

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usually as a dolphin, almost always, always is a dolphin.

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But still, your heart does pick up a beat, that's for sure.

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Yeah, no doubt. I saw a shark in the water one time from a pier swimming and

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it was blindingly fast. I feel like I'm a decent swimmer.

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I would just be eaten before I even knew what happened. So, Pastor Jeff,

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your senior year at California Baptist University, you were a water polo guy,

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and you played in 36 games.

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You had 27 goals, 17 assists, 26 steals, and those are really good numbers.

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You scored four goals against Redlands. You scored a goal against number 11, UC Davis.

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That's really impressive. And from my just memory here, you drew 23 ejections,

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which is more than Tommy Hunter, Bo Brumley, and Chris Nguyen put together.

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And we're really happy to have you on the show to talk a little bit about your water polo career.

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Now, I'm not a water polo expert. So what is that stat about the ejections?

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Does that mean you were ejected 23 times or you got people ejected 23 times? Yeah.

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It means I got people ejected 23 times. I was really good at selling.

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So you see soccer where the guy, you get to see falls, but he never even got

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touched by someone's foot.

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I was really good at swimming down the pool and acting like a guy's pulling

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my leg backwards and I would lurch backwards.

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And the referee would call an ejection, which would, in hockey terms, put us into a power play.

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Nice. We had an additional player and we go into a power play,

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which is about a 25 second power play.

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And in water polo, it's a huge advantage that you get power play and you're

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going to score probably six to seven out of 10 times on a power play.

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Oh, hey, wow. Just in that 20 seconds. That's pretty fascinating.

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It's quick. You get down there real quick and you can't move super fast in the

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water. So once you have one person less, formation is set up to make you score quickly.

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Fantastic. Now, do you think causing people to commit fouls,

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essentially making them stumble, is that a Christian thing?

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No, I'm just kidding. But Pastor Christopher, over to you for more serious pastoral questions.

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Well, we want to hear on the show, we want our listeners to hear the unique

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story of how God's been at work in your churches and in your life.

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And your churches are very unique. So we kind of want to do just a little bit

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of background on each of your churches, how they're different from each other.

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And then also to talk about how you guys got drawn into this particular role. So Pastor Michael,

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Tell us a little bit about the first Baptist church of Napomo.

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What was its condition in the year before you arrived?

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And then how did you end up getting there?

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Yeah, boy, I love telling this story because anytime it involves God's call

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in your life, there's some heartstrings attached and you're just seeing God work.

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It's awesome. I had just finished up about 10 years at one of our churches up

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in Milpitas. Loved the time there as a youth and family pastor.

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Saw God's faithfulness. And then during COVID, like with so many churches,

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there was some decline that caused them to need to shuffle things as a staff.

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And so I was asked if I would be willing to resign to make things a little easier

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financially for the church.

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That was hard, but I always know that God was going to put us somewhere.

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And he'd always had on my heart to be a lead pastor.

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In my desire to serve some small church somewhere, I didn't know where,

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but I just have a heart for smaller churches thanks to a class I took from Dr.

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Stewart many, many years ago on pastoral leadership in a small church.

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I just wanted to serve somewhere where they might even need someone just to

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lead music on a Sunday or something.

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But I heard about this church in Napomo where the pastor was getting ready to

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retire at some point, and they had a handful of members, roughly five or six,

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still attending on Sunday morning per week.

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And they were older ladies, most of them, and what I was told is that they didn't

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want their church to die.

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And that phrase so gripped my heart. God used that to show me sheep without a shepherd.

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And I didn't honestly know where Napoma was. I thought it was Inland Valley

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or something, but I told Katie, we got to check this out.

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I want to be put in conduct with the pastor, see if we can serve.

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And so that's really how we found out about it.

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It turns out it's on the Central Coast, 15 minutes away from Pismo Beach and

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a literal stop on some of the surfing tours.

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That was the furthest thing from our mind of location was not on our minds.

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So I just see that as the kindness of God to put us a place where we love the

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place as well. But the people are amazing.

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And so that's really how God brought us here.

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That's so awesome. And Pastor Jeff, your church is in a radically different location from Napomo.

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And so tell us about Foothill Baptist Church Los Altos, how they got to where

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they were maybe the year before you got there and how you ended up showing up

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and being part of the work that God's doing there now.

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Yeah, so Padilla was founded in 1954, part of a Southern Baptist campaign, a million more in 54.

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Wow. And so the church was planted and immediately grew over the next 10 years.

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It would grow to about 500 members.

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They built a large building. And essentially what happened from about 1964,

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1965 is the church began to decline.

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So by the time we get to 1980, there's only 200 people in regular attendance.

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By the 1990s, there's 100. By the time you get to the early 2000s,

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there's 25. And the last baptism was in 2003.

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So in 2025, the church called me in July of 2025 to be the pastor,

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and there were eight members left.

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And so I was in Portland, and I was pastoring at a Baptist church in Portland, an associate pastor.

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I wanted to be a lead pastor. I grew up in Southern California,

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wanted to get back to California, couldn't take the Portland weather anymore,

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and just wanted to be somewhere that God wanted to use me.

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And like Michael, I didn't have a list of God, this is exactly where you need to put me.

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But I always had a heart for being somewhere strategic, being somewhere near college students.

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I used to do college ministry. And so college students have always been near and dear to my heart.

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And so when I heard about Foothill Baptist Church in Los Altos,

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which is, if you look it up on the map, it's kind of the heartbeat of Silicon Valley.

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Surrounding it is the Apple's about 10 minutes away from us.

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Google's about 15. Facebook's about 20 minutes.

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And Stanford University is about 15 minutes away. When I heard about the opportunity

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to help this church that was dying, we just felt like this is what God was calling us to do.

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It wasn't how I had designed the process. I'm sure we can get into that later.

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But I was excited about the opportunity and the potential. And so we started

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interviewing, And that was about a six month process.

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And then we answered the Lord's call when the church called us.

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Awesome story there. Just guys, how's it going? Michael, you've been doing this

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for just over four years.

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Jeff, you're in, this is month number seven. So Michael, how's it going?

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We just passed our fifth anniversary, but I wasn't the lead pastor.

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Those first nine months was a strategic process, which we can talk about later.

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But I tell you, I wish that the numbers were higher as far as in the auditorium, but literally

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we just got back from youth camp with 15 teenagers and I've got boys coming

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back, fired up to walk with Jesus and meet together and memorize scripture.

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I have people who are taking leadership roles. I have an elder candidate where

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it was just me and the lead pastor, the pastor that was getting ready to retire.

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No other men in the church. Now I've got, you know, deacon candidates and elder candidate.

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Jeff, it gets better, man. I don't know what you've got over there,

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but I tell you, there was a lot of lonely Sundays and I guess I'm going to probably

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pray again this week and I'm probably going to lead the music and do a few other things, you know,

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and just to have people who are discipling others and it's the best thing ever.

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Jeff, how's it going over there at Foothill in month number seven?

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I think it's going really well. The first five, six months were really particularly

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difficult for me just personally.

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I remember reading a book about month two and about pastoral character and that

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he was talking about patience and praying for slow growth, counterintuitive,

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but praying for slow growth.

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And I thought, nah, I'm not praying that prayer.

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And a few months later, I started praying that prayer because I was just struggling

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to see how we're going to do this.

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You know, it wasn't seeing necessarily any growth, at least numerically.

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I was starting to see some growth in the people, which was encouraging.

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Now, seven months in, I do feel like we're seeing growth both numerically and

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in our other members. And that is super encouraging and growth in me as pastor.

00:16:03.075 --> 00:16:06.751
My wife told me early on, she said, Jeff, I think God wants you to go through

00:16:06.751 --> 00:16:10.140
all of it, the highs, the lows, the difficulties. Wow.

00:16:10.332 --> 00:16:14.961
And that has rung true in just the short seven months that I've been going through

00:16:14.961 --> 00:16:20.391
a lot of different highs and lows as I think the Lord is trying to shape the

00:16:20.391 --> 00:16:22.991
man that he wants to use for his work here at Foothill.

00:16:23.154 --> 00:16:28.151
Yeah, I think that is something pastors may not and church leaders don't think about enough.

00:16:28.151 --> 00:16:32.481
We are often so committed to the process and the outcome and the results.

00:16:32.481 --> 00:16:38.426
And I think it seems to be something higher on God's priority list to shape

00:16:38.560 --> 00:16:42.611
the people and the leaders involved in their character and their maturity.

00:16:42.611 --> 00:16:45.273
And that's that's hard. That's hard for all of us.

00:16:45.383 --> 00:16:51.270
So, guys, there's going to be church replanters and potential church replanters

00:16:51.391 --> 00:16:54.085
that are listening to this interview.

00:16:54.236 --> 00:16:58.073
And I would ask you, we'll start with Pastor Michael first, then Pastor Jeff.

00:16:58.207 --> 00:17:04.661
What would you say as an encouragement to those replanters, especially those

00:17:04.661 --> 00:17:07.061
early in their runs replanting?

00:17:07.061 --> 00:17:15.451
And what kind of, give us a pro tip, a something, a truth that will help them in their journey.

00:17:15.845 --> 00:17:21.760
Sure. Boy, what comes to mind immediately is to remember that your real legacy

00:17:22.097 --> 00:17:27.904
is living at home with you and to make sure that you are investing in them and

00:17:28.344 --> 00:17:31.762
that this church and your role in it will come and go.

00:17:31.913 --> 00:17:35.622
But God will continue to work in the hearts of your own children and family.

00:17:35.913 --> 00:17:40.674
That's important because your work can literally never be done if you don't

00:17:40.674 --> 00:17:44.533
want it. I mean, if you want to, you can just continue working at this all the time.

00:17:44.911 --> 00:17:49.243
And there are people who gladly meet with you. And so there's real people attached

00:17:49.243 --> 00:17:51.893
to it, not just busy work in your office somewhere.

00:17:52.293 --> 00:18:00.492
And so I think the one pro tip I would give is really to communicate well when there's changes.

00:18:01.593 --> 00:18:06.099
There will be changes and be willing to go slow. I think I would just ask myself,

00:18:06.320 --> 00:18:08.398
does this really need to happen right now?

00:18:08.990 --> 00:18:14.683
And how can I help communicate in the best way possible without making the old

00:18:14.683 --> 00:18:20.773
way or the old decision seem like it's dumb or not reaching people or I can't

00:18:20.773 --> 00:18:22.590
believe why we haven't done this yet.

00:18:22.700 --> 00:18:26.493
And so I think that I mostly did that well,

00:18:28.029 --> 00:18:31.473
But there are certain times where, man, if I had to go back,

00:18:31.473 --> 00:18:35.283
I just say, let's just, as we're going to make this change, let's just spend

00:18:35.283 --> 00:18:38.769
a little time to grieve the thing that needs to go and just say,

00:18:38.920 --> 00:18:40.113
as Marie Kondo would say,

00:18:40.773 --> 00:18:44.733
thank you for your service as we take it out to storage where it will in the

00:18:44.733 --> 00:18:47.006
dead of night find its way to the dumpster.

00:18:47.163 --> 00:18:51.853
So that would be my pro tip for anyone doing this.

00:18:52.167 --> 00:18:57.183
Okay, two tidbits of wisdom there. Over-communicate, especially when it comes

00:18:57.183 --> 00:19:02.043
to change, and focus on your family first. What will it profit a pastor who

00:19:02.043 --> 00:19:05.988
builds his kingdom and loses his family in the process?

00:19:06.296 --> 00:19:10.583
All right, Pastor Jeff, over to you. What is an encouragement you would give

00:19:10.583 --> 00:19:16.253
to replanters and potential replanters, and what are the pro tips you've learned

00:19:16.253 --> 00:19:18.654
from seven months in this process?

00:19:18.990 --> 00:19:22.743
Yeah, I think one of the things that guys need to remember is this is both a

00:19:22.743 --> 00:19:25.265
church plant and a revitalization.

00:19:25.440 --> 00:19:29.773
And so you need to know your priorities. You need to think through how you're

00:19:29.773 --> 00:19:30.513
going to spend your weeks.

00:19:31.047 --> 00:19:35.273
Like Pastor Michael said, there's a black hole worth of stuff to be doing.

00:19:35.732 --> 00:19:38.901
You've got to, if you're going to revitalize, you've got to preach excellent

00:19:38.901 --> 00:19:41.491
sermons to your people. You need to build up the eight people.

00:19:41.891 --> 00:19:43.992
I preach to eight like there's a hundred.

00:19:45.131 --> 00:19:48.731
I don't want them to feel like I'm preaching to eight. So if three people show

00:19:48.731 --> 00:19:50.561
up, we don't sit around and have a Bible study.

00:19:50.561 --> 00:19:54.711
I preach the full sermon that I wrote that week. And we trust that the Lord

00:19:54.711 --> 00:19:59.041
is using it for his work in their lives. And maybe some people that will listen

00:19:59.041 --> 00:20:01.691
to it on the internet or whatever he wants to do with it. Maybe it was just

00:20:01.691 --> 00:20:03.352
because I needed that sermon that week.

00:20:03.951 --> 00:20:08.360
So make sure you have your priorities straight and that you preach excellent sermons every week.

00:20:08.511 --> 00:20:12.412
And then I think pro tip is just that, man, we're in this for the long haul.

00:20:12.610 --> 00:20:15.961
I mean, I'm only seven months in, so it's somewhat easy to say it,

00:20:15.961 --> 00:20:17.567
but I know Michael would affirm this.

00:20:18.271 --> 00:20:23.302
It's that truism that God will do far less in one year, but he'll do a lot after five.

00:20:23.517 --> 00:20:27.122
And there is just that longevity, the importance of sticking to it,

00:20:27.290 --> 00:20:31.249
that the way that God builds his church and his people is through slow and steady growth.

00:20:31.435 --> 00:20:34.396
And we've got to trust in the longevity of the process.

00:20:34.524 --> 00:20:37.231
Yeah. Amen. All right. Let's chase a rabbit trail here real quick.

00:20:37.571 --> 00:20:39.591
You brought up preaching, Pastor Jeff.

00:20:39.591 --> 00:20:42.991
If I had to guess, and I'm about to find out if I lose my bet,

00:20:43.331 --> 00:20:47.901
I bet you and Pastor Michael have different preaching philosophies.

00:20:47.901 --> 00:20:53.641
So Pastor Jeff, I know you are an expository preacher, but also that you just

00:20:53.641 --> 00:20:59.821
preached through a series on Deuteronomy in what, six, eight weeks for the whole book?

00:20:59.821 --> 00:21:04.551
Five weeks for the whole book. Okay, so Martin Lloyd-Jones, if he was preaching

00:21:04.551 --> 00:21:08.131
on Deuteronomy, it would take him three lifetimes.

00:21:08.131 --> 00:21:12.321
So first to you, Pastor Jeff, what is your preaching philosophy?

00:21:12.321 --> 00:21:15.851
I find it very interesting. And then we'll ask the same question to Pastor Mike.

00:21:15.851 --> 00:21:20.381
Yeah, so I mean, I would be committed to expositional preaching and that the

00:21:20.381 --> 00:21:22.901
main point of the text becomes the main point of the sermon.

00:21:22.901 --> 00:21:28.485
And so you can preach expositionally, like Martin Lloyd-Jones and you can preach

00:21:28.827 --> 00:21:33.126
100 sermons in Genesis chapter 20 or whatever he's done on revival.

00:21:33.466 --> 00:21:36.786
You can preach 13 books worth on Romans like I have on my shelf.

00:21:36.786 --> 00:21:38.532
And you can do those things.

00:21:38.665 --> 00:21:40.556
You can also do one sermon on the

00:21:40.556 --> 00:21:44.697
whole Bible like Mark Dever has done at Capitol Hill in Washington, DC.

00:21:44.831 --> 00:21:49.086
So it's all types of, you can go through Deuteronomy in five weeks or 50 weeks.

00:21:49.086 --> 00:21:52.499
Expositional sermons don't have to follow one rigid pattern.

00:21:52.633 --> 00:21:56.406
But that's the commitment that I have is that I want the main point of the text

00:21:56.406 --> 00:22:00.556
be the main point of the sermon that we walk away with having been taught how

00:22:00.556 --> 00:22:03.566
to read our Bibles better and transformed by the word of God.

00:22:03.566 --> 00:22:06.708
Hey, that's a great nugget of preaching wisdom there.

00:22:06.853 --> 00:22:10.836
I really do think we are largely, and I don't want to get emails on this because

00:22:10.836 --> 00:22:18.144
I could be wrong. I think we're largely past the day of 250 to 300 sermons on the book of Ephesians.

00:22:18.254 --> 00:22:22.486
So I kind of like your method of going through the book of Deuteronomy.

00:22:22.486 --> 00:22:24.866
So Pastor Michael, what is your preaching philosophy?

00:22:25.005 --> 00:22:26.936
I strongly disagree with Jeff.

00:22:26.936 --> 00:22:31.908
Oh, boy. No, it's fantastic. And I love what he said there at the end.

00:22:32.064 --> 00:22:38.266
And I would add to what he said at the end that my goal, because I have so many

00:22:38.266 --> 00:22:42.076
new believers in my church, literally they received the Lord and were baptized

00:22:42.076 --> 00:22:43.924
here and being discipled by someone here.

00:22:44.708 --> 00:22:49.796
I want to turn them from spiritual toddlers who need to be fed to people who can feed themselves.

00:22:49.796 --> 00:22:53.946
And so I want to show them through the message how to get into the Word of God.

00:22:53.946 --> 00:22:58.036
And that's what I heard Jeff saying just now, how to study the Word of God,

00:22:58.297 --> 00:23:00.931
and then yes, to apply it to their lives.

00:23:01.158 --> 00:23:05.106
So as I'm praying through a series, and yes, it'll be from a book,

00:23:05.106 --> 00:23:08.983
or most recently through the Sermon on the Mount, I'll take and say,

00:23:09.145 --> 00:23:11.386
this is what I think our people need

00:23:11.906 --> 00:23:15.766
in their walk right now, and talk with my elder candidate about that as well,

00:23:15.766 --> 00:23:20.802
so we can both be in prayer about it, and then go into it that way. So I took

00:23:21.150 --> 00:23:24.720
50-something weeks, I think, through Genesis.

00:23:25.016 --> 00:23:30.486
So I need to watch Jeff's sermons online since he says they're readily available

00:23:30.486 --> 00:23:34.336
and find out how I could have done that in about probably seven weeks,

00:23:34.336 --> 00:23:37.677
I'd say, for Genesis. It's going to take a little bit.

00:23:37.955 --> 00:23:41.846
But no, I just love that because I have a desire also, Lord willing,

00:23:41.846 --> 00:23:44.138
in my time here to preach through the Bible.

00:23:44.271 --> 00:23:49.426
And so I can't realistically be taking 66 years or whatever it is to preach

00:23:49.426 --> 00:23:53.396
through all things. So I'm going to have to switch things up a little bit in

00:23:53.396 --> 00:23:56.624
my style as well. So I love that. Kudos to you, Jeff. All right.

00:23:56.926 --> 00:24:00.876
Well, handing back control to Pastor Christopher, I will ask you as I hand it

00:24:00.876 --> 00:24:04.965
off, what is your style of preaching? What is your method, Pastor Christopher?

00:24:05.401 --> 00:24:11.427
Oh, I just open up my Bible and stick my finger in it and comment from the beginning right there.

00:24:12.303 --> 00:24:16.843
At this point, this many years into the ministry, dude, I don't need to do any studying or anything.

00:24:17.283 --> 00:24:23.813
And if you are listening at home, please do not listen to that advice or that counsel.

00:24:23.813 --> 00:24:29.193
No, man, I love the expositional preaching of God's word. I love to take it

00:24:29.193 --> 00:24:36.443
and apply it well while revealing the intent of the text and what God is speaking to his people about.

00:24:36.823 --> 00:24:40.433
And I love these brothers' heart for teaching the Word of God,

00:24:40.433 --> 00:24:47.145
centering the church around the revitalizing, the strategic work of the Word of God.

00:24:47.412 --> 00:24:50.643
Because Scripture reminds us, you know, it's the Word of God that's living and

00:24:50.643 --> 00:24:56.247
active and sharper than any two-edged sword that pierces to the division of soul and spirit.

00:24:56.462 --> 00:25:01.546
And it's that word of God that discerns the thoughts and intentions of the human heart.

00:25:02.143 --> 00:25:08.423
So, you know, I think anybody that we want to work with in our GCA strategies

00:25:08.423 --> 00:25:11.633
is we want men who are centered around the word of God. And both these guys

00:25:11.633 --> 00:25:12.943
are great examples of that.

00:25:13.263 --> 00:25:16.473
And I love their heart for God's word, for God's people. Well,

00:25:16.473 --> 00:25:21.743
guys, let's talk about replanting as a strategy.

00:25:22.163 --> 00:25:26.963
And in this day and time, there's a lot of different people who have sort of

00:25:26.963 --> 00:25:29.493
jumped on the replanting bus.

00:25:29.493 --> 00:25:34.054
You know, when I was doing this 35 years ago for the first time,

00:25:34.193 --> 00:25:37.432
there was no one wanting to do this, right? This was not...

00:25:37.775 --> 00:25:41.449
A, a exciting part of church ministry.

00:25:41.589 --> 00:25:46.035
And now, you know, even, even 15 years ago, there were almost no books,

00:25:46.675 --> 00:25:52.049
No major books on this topic, not a lot of that had been written about it.

00:25:52.299 --> 00:25:54.765
But today there's a lot of people throwing around terms like,

00:25:54.765 --> 00:25:57.956
oh, I'm a replanter, I'm a revitalizer.

00:25:58.061 --> 00:26:02.025
And there's not a lot of clarity or definition about that. And I've,

00:26:02.465 --> 00:26:08.165
I work with both of you guys through your processes as you guys were coming into this role.

00:26:08.525 --> 00:26:15.725
So I'm curious with your experience now, how well you think my analogies resonate

00:26:15.725 --> 00:26:19.465
as I try to teach and coach on this particular point.

00:26:19.875 --> 00:26:24.776
One analogy that you guys I think are both very familiar with from me is this,

00:26:25.118 --> 00:26:31.165
that I tell guys who are considering the work of planting or replanting or church

00:26:31.165 --> 00:26:33.059
revitalization They're trying to discern.

00:26:33.367 --> 00:26:38.945
I say, listen, the scripture talks about the church. It uses the analogy at

00:26:38.945 --> 00:26:45.058
times of us being like a building. You know, Peter uses this analogy. Paul uses this analogy.

00:26:45.192 --> 00:26:50.979
So I say, so what kind of spiritual building do you think God's called you to be in or to steward?

00:26:51.303 --> 00:26:53.605
Or to help build. And some people,

00:26:53.605 --> 00:26:57.978
they just want to go into sort of the suburbia equivalent of a church.

00:26:58.169 --> 00:27:00.161
It's just, it's an existing house.

00:27:00.375 --> 00:27:04.358
They want to maintain it well. They may even want to expand it just a little bit.

00:27:04.566 --> 00:27:08.293
And I say, hey, if that's you and that's your spiritual house,

00:27:08.555 --> 00:27:13.675
you're probably a pastor. Other guys want to find that empty field and they

00:27:13.675 --> 00:27:18.245
see that empty spot and they just dream up that great, big, beautiful home that

00:27:18.245 --> 00:27:19.096
they want to build there.

00:27:19.404 --> 00:27:22.785
And they spend their life and ministry building that.

00:27:23.185 --> 00:27:26.399
And I say, man, if that's you, you're a church planter, right?

00:27:26.538 --> 00:27:30.355
And if you're a replanter or a revitalizer, though, you've got a little bit

00:27:30.355 --> 00:27:35.135
different wiring and you're the guy who's passing through the neighborhood and

00:27:35.135 --> 00:27:41.145
you see this old run down Victorian or craftsman home and you can't help it.

00:27:41.145 --> 00:27:45.755
You keep walking by it and you see the raccoons, you see that the wiring is

00:27:45.755 --> 00:27:50.475
shot, you maybe even poke your head in through what once was beautiful glass

00:27:50.475 --> 00:27:53.850
windows and realize that the house is full of mold.

00:27:53.989 --> 00:28:01.831
And yet you are crazy enough to buy that house and move into it and room by room, not knock it down,

00:28:02.133 --> 00:28:06.155
not try to turn it into something completely new, but room by room,

00:28:06.155 --> 00:28:12.495
renovate that house spiritually so that it becomes a place both that holds the

00:28:12.495 --> 00:28:14.649
history and beauty of the past

00:28:14.800 --> 00:28:18.965
and is functional and fruitful in a modern time.

00:28:18.965 --> 00:28:24.615
So that's my analogy that I use. I'm curious, how do you guys feel about that

00:28:24.615 --> 00:28:28.085
analogy now that you're in this work? And we'll start with Michael.

00:28:28.085 --> 00:28:29.063
You've been doing this for

00:28:29.208 --> 00:28:33.725
Almost five years. Is that still a good analogy? Where does it fall apart?

00:28:33.725 --> 00:28:35.413
Critique it if you want to.

00:28:35.838 --> 00:28:39.182
Well, I'll let you know in year 10, if the house falls apart,

00:28:39.321 --> 00:28:43.180
you know, you got to shore up the foundation or something. But I like that analogy.

00:28:43.520 --> 00:28:47.767
I've used it myself. And it was very poignant that when I came here,

00:28:47.918 --> 00:28:50.947
the parsonage needed to be literally renovated.

00:28:51.139 --> 00:28:55.110
And God kept sending us people. When we moved in there, one of the upstairs

00:28:55.110 --> 00:28:57.443
ceiling fans was held together with hair ties.

00:28:57.716 --> 00:29:01.031
The downstairs carpet in the dining room was held together with duct tape.

00:29:01.187 --> 00:29:04.680
And so you can just imagine the rest of it. And so

00:29:05.100 --> 00:29:10.410
I see that, that you don't, I guess the admission is you don't get to be a church

00:29:10.410 --> 00:29:13.820
of just a handful of people meeting on Sunday morning by loving your community

00:29:13.820 --> 00:29:17.232
well, and by there being intention to the important things

00:29:17.575 --> 00:29:22.580
that just, that doesn't happen by accident or oops, you know, we didn't mean to.

00:29:23.080 --> 00:29:28.990
And so that takes someone who loves that church to say, God,

00:29:28.990 --> 00:29:31.850
would you give me wisdom and carefulness and time?

00:29:31.850 --> 00:29:35.510
And so that's what we committed to is Pastor Christopher, you told us at the

00:29:35.510 --> 00:29:39.210
beginning, told Katie and I that would take probably between seven and 10 years.

00:29:39.210 --> 00:29:40.818
And so we committed to at least

00:29:41.165 --> 00:29:44.573
10 years, should the Lord tarry and allow us the opportunity.

00:29:44.724 --> 00:29:48.269
So there's not been delusions of, boy, this was supposed to have happened a

00:29:48.269 --> 00:29:52.669
couple of years ago, or why aren't we at a certain spot by now?

00:29:52.966 --> 00:29:56.709
We want to continue being faithful, yes, but we're in it for the long haul and

00:29:56.709 --> 00:30:03.757
expecting it to be that from the get-go, from the jump. So yeah, I love the analogy.

00:30:04.065 --> 00:30:06.549
And though I'm not a remodeler.

00:30:07.289 --> 00:30:11.579
I used to say that God sent us people and the people sent me to Home Depot.

00:30:11.579 --> 00:30:16.469
So that was my role in the whole renovation of the parsonage.

00:30:16.469 --> 00:30:20.749
I recall that renovation work. I pulled up a good bit of carpet in there.

00:30:20.749 --> 00:30:22.749
You did it. I did your lovely wife.

00:30:24.589 --> 00:30:28.723
And that was, it was gross. There's a funny story here we got to tell.

00:30:29.077 --> 00:30:36.029
No joke, on the day that we took over the parsonage, which had been rented out.

00:30:36.029 --> 00:30:36.839
For 10 years.

00:30:36.839 --> 00:30:42.009
And for 10 years, the church had reassumed authority over this parsonage.

00:30:42.009 --> 00:30:48.134
But on the day that we show up with these renovation crews to gut the place

00:30:48.273 --> 00:30:51.589
with multiple church volunteers from different churches there.

00:30:51.669 --> 00:30:53.189
18 volunteers from different churches, yeah.

00:30:53.189 --> 00:30:56.529
Yeah, different churches were there. Michael goes over there,

00:30:56.529 --> 00:30:57.939
but he can't get in the house.

00:30:57.939 --> 00:31:03.059
So he breaks into the church's parsonage, Only to find there's a dude in the

00:31:03.059 --> 00:31:10.629
shower and, and the family has, has decided to stay because they have COVID.

00:31:11.149 --> 00:31:14.361
Oh, I know. Wow. What a story.

00:31:16.295 --> 00:31:20.761
That's called pivot. So we cleaned out the food storage instead with those volunteers.

00:31:20.761 --> 00:31:25.211
But Pastor Chris and his wife masked up with us after the renters finally got

00:31:25.211 --> 00:31:28.821
out that day, and they still tore out carpet in that COVID-infested home.

00:31:28.821 --> 00:31:31.171
So it's good to have ministry partners.

00:31:32.392 --> 00:31:37.411
It was quite the story. Well, Jeff, you've heard me use that analogy.

00:31:37.411 --> 00:31:42.591
You've been living in this reality. You come from also a church that's a little

00:31:42.591 --> 00:31:46.265
bit farther on their revitalization journey.

00:31:46.711 --> 00:31:51.761
So does that analogy stand up? How would you explain the differences in these

00:31:51.761 --> 00:31:55.315
kinds of work to guys that are considering it?

00:31:55.437 --> 00:32:01.311
Yeah. I mean, I think that part of what differentiates a replanter versus a revitalizer is that

00:32:02.051 --> 00:32:05.735
a revitalizer is in a church that can fully support the pastor,

00:32:05.868 --> 00:32:10.535
and he's there for the long work of turning around what has become a spiritually

00:32:10.652 --> 00:32:12.196
dying and or dead church.

00:32:12.329 --> 00:32:17.361
A replanter is taking on a building, a people, a history, has to externally

00:32:17.361 --> 00:32:19.441
fundraise to support the work, and

00:32:19.441 --> 00:32:23.631
has to balance church planting and revitalizing, which means you have to

00:32:24.091 --> 00:32:27.689
love and appreciate the people who are there and their history

00:32:28.584 --> 00:32:33.453
While not getting only caught up with them and their history,

00:32:33.766 --> 00:32:36.343
but also helping them see the way forward.

00:32:36.483 --> 00:32:39.710
There's a reason why we got here to where we are.

00:32:39.855 --> 00:32:44.644
Now we need to move forward while not losing the history, but appreciating,

00:32:44.644 --> 00:32:46.803
valuing, and looking ahead.

00:32:47.122 --> 00:32:50.884
And so it's why when I came in, I had no intentions of changing the church name

00:32:50.884 --> 00:32:54.044
because I wanted the witness that has been on the corner of Grant and Fremont

00:32:54.044 --> 00:32:57.064
for 60, 70 years to continue.

00:32:57.064 --> 00:33:02.575
And for this community to see a church that is dying, turn around and flourish.

00:33:02.859 --> 00:33:06.594
And isn't that just a picture of the gospel? People who are dead, who come to life.

00:33:06.594 --> 00:33:10.264
And so I love that vision of in a decade, you know, Lord willing,

00:33:10.264 --> 00:33:14.744
if he tarries, Michael, that we're seeing a church that has turned around as

00:33:14.744 --> 00:33:18.414
life and that the community takes notice of because of the way that we love

00:33:18.414 --> 00:33:19.804
each other and that we love them.

00:33:19.914 --> 00:33:22.914
So if you want to be a church planter, I think you're after a really good work.

00:33:22.914 --> 00:33:25.911
It's just a very different work as is revitalization.

00:33:26.126 --> 00:33:30.924
Replanter, I love the term or renewal as others use. I love the term because

00:33:30.924 --> 00:33:34.594
I think it captures the essence of what we're doing. We're both revitalizing

00:33:34.594 --> 00:33:35.744
and we're church planting.

00:33:36.464 --> 00:33:41.084
Yeah. Well, let's shift gears a little bit because both of your answers are

00:33:41.084 --> 00:33:45.624
getting us into a discussion of how transformation takes place.

00:33:45.624 --> 00:33:50.122
And a big part of that is practical. A big part of that is spiritual.

00:33:50.273 --> 00:33:55.274
So let's think about those spiritual aspects, specifically prayer,

00:33:55.274 --> 00:33:57.065
but going beyond that as well.

00:33:57.344 --> 00:34:03.195
So again, starting with Pastor Michael, what role did prayer intercession,

00:34:03.532 --> 00:34:09.804
both in the church and outside the church, what role did that play in kind of getting you,

00:34:10.324 --> 00:34:14.329
through the years you are now to getting you from point A to where you are now?

00:34:14.711 --> 00:34:19.472
Yeah, boy, it was foundational at first. I'm so grateful for Pastor Chris Cole,

00:34:19.472 --> 00:34:22.892
who came and led some amazing

00:34:23.852 --> 00:34:28.482
heart-transforming Bible studies and suggested some things to me,

00:34:28.482 --> 00:34:29.772
was my coach along the way.

00:34:29.772 --> 00:34:34.952
And one of the things that we've done is even recently going back to a 21 days

00:34:34.952 --> 00:34:39.402
of prayer emphasis as we're looking to have an outreach in the park across the

00:34:39.402 --> 00:34:41.523
street, just calling people to prayer again.

00:34:41.780 --> 00:34:46.312
At the end of last year, when finances were really in limbo,

00:34:46.312 --> 00:34:51.329
basically, hey, we're not sure what God is saying to us through the lack of finances.

00:34:51.538 --> 00:34:55.412
God, would you do something and would you make it clear because we'll be obedient,

00:34:55.412 --> 00:34:57.046
but we just need to hear from you.

00:34:57.308 --> 00:35:03.292
So called the church for a season to be praying intentionally and God answered

00:35:03.692 --> 00:35:07.462
and finances really picked up. We're so grateful. But that's not the story.

00:35:07.462 --> 00:35:11.587
It's not about finances. It's about that there need to be a reliance on God.

00:35:11.721 --> 00:35:16.252
You can't expect just the outward things of, as pastors talk about,

00:35:16.252 --> 00:35:20.672
nickels and noses or butts in seats and bucks in the plate or whatever you want.

00:35:21.392 --> 00:35:24.912
You can't expect those things to change without a heart change first.

00:35:24.912 --> 00:35:28.752
It will be temporal. It will be our doing, and I don't want anything of it.

00:35:29.092 --> 00:35:33.652
It will have the smell of human on it if we can just force it.

00:35:33.652 --> 00:35:39.222
It's not a popular thing that I did, but I did not put up a new sign outside here in the Pomo.

00:35:39.222 --> 00:35:42.482
I'm not suggesting this is the strategy for elsewhere. I did not put up a new

00:35:42.482 --> 00:35:48.032
sign, new logo for almost three years because I was afraid in this town of 19,000

00:35:48.032 --> 00:35:51.572
people, we have one chance with some people.

00:35:51.572 --> 00:35:54.270
They might come one time and it's a small town.

00:35:54.566 --> 00:35:58.247
And I was not sure that our people would love them if they came in the door.

00:35:58.732 --> 00:36:03.452
Just to be gut level frank with you, I didn't know because they had not loved

00:36:03.452 --> 00:36:07.262
their community well to get to this point. They'd become insular. And we do that.

00:36:07.523 --> 00:36:11.343
It's not because they're bad people. They're very, very good people. They're sweet people.

00:36:11.714 --> 00:36:14.654
But they just lost sight of mission in order to keep

00:36:15.234 --> 00:36:20.744
And turn it to let's keep these doors open in a sense, rather than remembering

00:36:20.744 --> 00:36:24.814
that we have a public elementary school literally across the street from the

00:36:24.814 --> 00:36:29.628
church who can see us and did not know who we were, knew nothing of that.

00:36:29.901 --> 00:36:34.024
So to transform their hearts, we started literally praying for the school across

00:36:34.024 --> 00:36:37.454
the street. God, would you help us to love them? Would you show us how to love

00:36:37.454 --> 00:36:38.695
them, their families, whatever.

00:36:38.950 --> 00:36:44.844
And so prayer, absolutely foundational. And I don't take credit for even thinking through that.

00:36:44.844 --> 00:36:49.024
Like I said, Pastor Christopher Cole, again, you've heard me thank you in private,

00:36:49.024 --> 00:36:54.693
but also publicly, just amazing your heart for our church and for me.

00:36:55.394 --> 00:36:58.908
We had to do that. We had to do the hard spiritual work.

00:36:59.047 --> 00:37:02.474
And I'm so grateful that the ladies were willing to do that.

00:37:02.474 --> 00:37:07.334
The former pastor and his wife, Tom and Nancy, stayed with us at my invitation,

00:37:07.334 --> 00:37:13.014
stayed for three years and as our emeritus pastor for the first little part

00:37:13.147 --> 00:37:16.212
as paid and then just being here because they love the people.

00:37:16.602 --> 00:37:20.033
And so I'm so grateful for them being willing to go through that work with us,

00:37:20.033 --> 00:37:24.276
but just, yeah, all glory to God for, for him transforming hearts.

00:37:24.474 --> 00:37:29.164
So then we actually do love, love the school across the street and they know it.

00:37:29.338 --> 00:37:33.673
So anyway, anyway, I just want to say that that's been foundational.

00:37:33.673 --> 00:37:36.785
Pastors should not overlook that work of prayer.

00:37:37.116 --> 00:37:40.473
I don't want to paint with too broad of a brush, but I'm going to anyway.

00:37:40.473 --> 00:37:45.905
I know for most of us men, when our wives come to us with an issue,

00:37:46.044 --> 00:37:51.823
our first instinct is almost always to fix it instead of to sympathize,

00:37:51.823 --> 00:37:54.893
empathize, listen, and extend compassion.

00:37:54.893 --> 00:38:03.058
And my anecdotal survey of pastors is about 92 to 93% of us are doers.

00:38:03.186 --> 00:38:07.813
You would think pastors should be great at prayer. It's hard for us to pray

00:38:07.813 --> 00:38:09.415
because there's so much to do.

00:38:10.123 --> 00:38:14.471
And there's always that pressure of if it's to be, it's up to me.

00:38:14.622 --> 00:38:17.913
And I'm glad to hear your testimony.

00:38:17.913 --> 00:38:21.983
And I hope all of us hear it well that, you know, the work of the kingdom is

00:38:21.983 --> 00:38:24.908
not going to primarily be accomplished

00:38:25.048 --> 00:38:29.192
by our tasks and our work and our gifts and our efforts, but by

00:38:29.529 --> 00:38:33.690
God moving on behalf of our prayers. So Pastor Jeff, over to you.

00:38:34.383 --> 00:38:40.223
In the seven months you've been serving in Los Altos. Tell us about how prayer

00:38:40.223 --> 00:38:41.585
has played a part in that.

00:38:41.735 --> 00:38:46.063
I think one of the cornerstones of what I encourage our people to do,

00:38:46.543 --> 00:38:49.671
and I'm trying to model as well, is I had to pray for each other.

00:38:49.798 --> 00:38:53.953
To pray for the members, there's about 14 members of the church,

00:38:53.953 --> 00:38:58.239
and I have a membership list that I pray through regularly for each person by name.

00:38:58.390 --> 00:39:03.393
Just pray scripture because I believe that it's prayer that does the work and

00:39:03.393 --> 00:39:04.633
it's prayer that changes people.

00:39:04.633 --> 00:39:07.873
And so I'm encouraging our members to do that, to pray for each other.

00:39:07.873 --> 00:39:12.212
And then my wife and I just been in a regular season of prayer for the church,

00:39:12.350 --> 00:39:13.976
prayer for the work that's happening.

00:39:14.422 --> 00:39:18.564
And what's interesting is, you know, just a quick story. We were praying for

00:39:18.564 --> 00:39:21.301
just that the Lord would grow the church. He'd bring more people.

00:39:21.447 --> 00:39:26.624
And then we decided to pray on a Sunday for one. So, Lord, just bring us one family.

00:39:26.924 --> 00:39:32.980
And amazing enough that following Sunday, one family showed up with three kids.

00:39:33.095 --> 00:39:36.729
And they showed up and they walked in the door. And within the first week,

00:39:36.862 --> 00:39:40.660
I had met with the husband and he said, how do I join? We want to be a part of this church.

00:39:40.798 --> 00:39:44.264
And that was such an encouragement to me and to us just praying.

00:39:44.264 --> 00:39:49.054
And then there's other stories of prayer as well, but I did feel like the Lord

00:39:49.054 --> 00:39:50.864
was directing us to pray for that one.

00:39:50.980 --> 00:39:54.527
And then I was also just convicted that I'm encouraging the church to pray,

00:39:54.637 --> 00:39:57.326
but we're not making any time as a church to pray.

00:39:58.352 --> 00:40:01.984
If you come to our service, you'll hear long prayers. I'm all about prayers

00:40:01.984 --> 00:40:05.244
of petition, prayers of confession, prayers of thanksgiving.

00:40:05.244 --> 00:40:09.064
So you're going to get long prayers that I'm leading or someone else is leading,

00:40:09.220 --> 00:40:11.513
but we weren't actively praying as a church together.

00:40:11.652 --> 00:40:16.174
And so we've started monthly lunch where we get together to eat,

00:40:16.174 --> 00:40:18.356
fellowship, and then spend some time praying.

00:40:18.582 --> 00:40:22.714
And that's prayer that I'm directing, that I'm leading and guiding us so that

00:40:22.714 --> 00:40:26.274
we're not just praying for each other's health, but we're actually praying for

00:40:26.274 --> 00:40:27.284
the ministry of the church.

00:40:27.423 --> 00:40:30.674
Praying that we would have a church that has a culture of hospitality,

00:40:30.674 --> 00:40:32.304
of discipling, of evangelism.

00:40:32.704 --> 00:40:36.548
Praying for one another, praying for the preaching of God's word,

00:40:36.791 --> 00:40:39.891
praying for evangelistic opportunities in the community.

00:40:40.025 --> 00:40:43.734
So, I mean, prayer is the bedrock of what we're doing. And so I think the Lord

00:40:43.734 --> 00:40:46.924
has been just shaping the way that that plays out in my own life,

00:40:46.924 --> 00:40:49.812
but also how we work that out in the life of the church.

00:40:49.980 --> 00:40:50.880
Yeah, fantastic.

00:40:51.177 --> 00:40:57.832
So while we were talking, Pastor Christopher live added a question to my notes.

00:40:57.832 --> 00:41:01.702
And I think it's an excellent question. So I'm going to throw it out to you

00:41:01.702 --> 00:41:03.572
guys. Let me tell you a quick story first.

00:41:03.892 --> 00:41:08.122
I am an Alabama football fan and grew up watching the Crimson Tide play.

00:41:08.122 --> 00:41:12.882
And I remember a running back we had back when I was very young in the 80s named

00:41:12.882 --> 00:41:17.252
Kerry Goode. Kerry Goode is a Christian. He was a fantastic running back.

00:41:17.781 --> 00:41:21.232
Either his cousin or his brother, Pierre, is one of the fastest players I've ever seen.

00:41:21.232 --> 00:41:27.152
But Kerry Goode has ALS now, one of at least a handful of Alabama players I'm

00:41:27.152 --> 00:41:30.152
aware of that has ALS or Lou Gehrig's disease.

00:41:30.152 --> 00:41:35.992
And I follow Kerry on Facebook, and he writes all the time about ALS.

00:41:35.992 --> 00:41:43.442
And what he wrote about just, I think, yesterday was that moment when the tests

00:41:43.442 --> 00:41:49.672
had been run and his doctor had come in and told him that he has

00:41:50.092 --> 00:41:53.382
ALS, Lou Gehrig's disease, which if you know anything about ALS,

00:41:53.382 --> 00:41:55.662
it's a terrifying diagnosis.

00:41:55.662 --> 00:42:01.271
You don't normally get over, you know, there's no cure. It's just degenerative,

00:42:01.405 --> 00:42:05.062
essentially, usually apart from the miracle of God until you die.

00:42:05.812 --> 00:42:12.283
So huge deal, breaking bad news. And that gets me to Pastor Christopher's question,

00:42:12.428 --> 00:42:15.981
which is about breaking bad news. Over to you, Pastor Michael.

00:42:16.248 --> 00:42:23.312
What is the spiritual work of helping a church see and understand and acknowledge,

00:42:23.832 --> 00:42:29.824
the spiritual reality and the natural reality of the fact that they are,

00:42:30.452 --> 00:42:34.672
dead or near dead at the beginning of that replant process?

00:42:34.672 --> 00:42:39.212
What does that look like communicating that news and saying,

00:42:39.212 --> 00:42:43.797
hey guys, we don't just need a band-aid, we need miraculous intervention.

00:42:44.516 --> 00:42:52.350
Yeah, the people here were very painfully aware of the lack of young people.

00:42:52.350 --> 00:42:56.765
And my family shows up with a bunch of kids and including a couple teenagers

00:42:56.887 --> 00:43:00.891
and the result was jarring. You could see they're so excited,

00:43:01.037 --> 00:43:02.197
but they were very aware.

00:43:02.337 --> 00:43:09.590
The problem is that they don't always associate that with spiritual lack in

00:43:09.590 --> 00:43:11.710
some way or something that's happened.

00:43:11.710 --> 00:43:17.880
And so what I did early on, so if we came in mid-April, this was very first

00:43:17.880 --> 00:43:19.030
part of June, I'm talking

00:43:19.850 --> 00:43:25.170
within two months, I had asked them to come to a night, I believe it was a Sunday

00:43:25.170 --> 00:43:29.520
night, which we called Humility Night, and that we would just be,

00:43:30.640 --> 00:43:32.875
That we would repent as a church.

00:43:32.991 --> 00:43:38.831
And not all of us had been there for the wrong things that had been said on behalf of the church.

00:43:39.110 --> 00:43:46.750
Not all of us had not done evangelism in our community, but all of us were reaping that.

00:43:47.110 --> 00:43:52.350
And some of us had had some part in that or had rude things said to us.

00:43:52.710 --> 00:43:57.730
And so there were a lot of tears that night and it was not a flashy service at all.

00:43:58.390 --> 00:44:02.520
And I've not done it since. I haven't felt the need to do that since,

00:44:02.520 --> 00:44:08.379
but to own as a church and for my family to be with them in it.

00:44:08.541 --> 00:44:14.776
And because we're now part of the family and we grieved together for what had

00:44:14.932 --> 00:44:17.910
been said or done on behalf of the church or to people

00:44:18.674 --> 00:44:26.292
And I just feel like that helped to then set the tone for additional conversations that you need to have.

00:44:26.530 --> 00:44:30.934
Well, we want to see people welcome here. We want whatever. And so,

00:44:31.274 --> 00:44:33.894
yeah, I think that was foundational for that.

00:44:34.314 --> 00:44:35.876
Awesome. Jeff, you got anything to add to that?

00:44:37.054 --> 00:44:42.564
I might not be the best one to answer this question. I've not had any conversations

00:44:42.564 --> 00:44:45.094
or acknowledgements of the failures of the past.

00:44:45.474 --> 00:44:51.024
Partly because I trust that the remnant that God has kept here is going to respond

00:44:51.024 --> 00:44:54.314
to the preaching of his word, that they're going to grow, that they're going

00:44:54.314 --> 00:44:57.662
to grow in their love for Jesus. They're going to grow in love for the community.

00:44:57.964 --> 00:45:01.261
And as they see people come to the church, it's going to encourage them.

00:45:01.551 --> 00:45:05.667
It's going to embolden them. They're going to want to see continuing what we're doing.

00:45:05.795 --> 00:45:10.914
So essentially, I think what I'm trying to do is just love the people and trust

00:45:10.914 --> 00:45:13.494
that God has kept them here for a reason.

00:45:13.494 --> 00:45:16.734
There are so many reasons why this church should not still exist,

00:45:16.734 --> 00:45:21.624
and yet it's still here. And so now is the time where we see the fortunes of

00:45:21.624 --> 00:45:24.794
the Baptist Church turn, but it's going to be because the Lord is growing His

00:45:24.794 --> 00:45:26.889
people and the Lord is adding to His people.

00:45:27.196 --> 00:45:31.295
And I just want to keep pointing them to that testimony and to that witness.

00:45:31.422 --> 00:45:34.414
And I trust that the Christians will see it and rejoice.

00:45:34.714 --> 00:45:38.353
And if there are any that are not Christians, they will not like it.

00:45:38.470 --> 00:45:41.047
And I can just trust the Lord and then the work that he's doing.

00:45:41.366 --> 00:45:43.624
I appreciate the fact that both

00:45:43.624 --> 00:45:50.434
of you have two significantly different approaches to the same problem.

00:45:50.894 --> 00:45:59.854
And I think that is a great example of spiritual giftedness and the individual

00:46:00.174 --> 00:46:02.444
way that God calls people.

00:46:02.874 --> 00:46:06.714
We're different and we're going to be different. And I'm not going to do everything

00:46:06.714 --> 00:46:09.174
like Mark Dever or David Platt or J.D.

00:46:09.174 --> 00:46:14.274
Greer does. And that's not only American individualism deeper than that.

00:46:14.274 --> 00:46:20.705
It's God's way of calling and crafting his people. So thank you guys both for those answers.

00:46:21.187 --> 00:46:27.561
If I could also say, I came following a very faithful pastor who had not left,

00:46:27.741 --> 00:46:32.506
not left these ladies in the lurch and was regrettably retiring.

00:46:32.886 --> 00:46:38.488
And so it was not his fault the way that he got the church when it had 20 in it on a Sunday.

00:46:38.633 --> 00:46:44.246
And so he was gently leading them into the future with the people that he had.

00:46:44.246 --> 00:46:49.776
And so that in a very real sense, so far from wanting to put blame on anybody,

00:46:49.776 --> 00:46:51.736
there wasn't like just a person.

00:46:51.736 --> 00:46:55.496
Like you couldn't just point back if there had been a pastor who had been malicious,

00:46:55.496 --> 00:46:59.311
for example, or had divided the church, that was not this pastor.

00:46:59.450 --> 00:47:02.946
He had loved them well to the point where I said, I want him to stay.

00:47:02.946 --> 00:47:05.232
I would not have asked him to stay if that were the case.

00:47:05.360 --> 00:47:10.676
And so I just want to say that that also played into how I led through that,

00:47:10.676 --> 00:47:15.193
that careful realization of now, what can we do?

00:47:15.326 --> 00:47:19.676
We didn't have people before that could go across and bring snacks to the monthly,

00:47:19.676 --> 00:47:21.071
to the school across the street.

00:47:21.379 --> 00:47:25.126
Now my family could at least do that until we end up having other people who

00:47:25.126 --> 00:47:27.286
could come alongside us, which we eventually did.

00:47:28.305 --> 00:47:31.806
Okay. I think that's a good place to pause the interview for now.

00:47:32.067 --> 00:47:37.036
We've got a whole second part coming for you next week, where we keep on talking

00:47:37.036 --> 00:47:41.830
about that process of change and transformation with Pastor Michael and Pastor Jeff.

00:47:41.998 --> 00:47:44.826
I think the conversation gets even deeper.

00:47:45.058 --> 00:47:49.475
It's always the same in these kind of interviews. The first half is good,

00:47:49.754 --> 00:47:53.916
but the second half just has a tendency to go deeper and deeper and deeper and

00:47:53.916 --> 00:47:56.702
better and richer, further up, further in.

00:47:56.923 --> 00:48:04.110
Now, before we are finished, we're going to review a soda from Manchester, England.

00:48:04.471 --> 00:48:09.109
That has black currant and all sorts of other fascinating ingredients in it.

00:48:09.509 --> 00:48:14.942
I have no earthly idea what to expect out of this one. Let's see how it tastes.

00:48:15.174 --> 00:48:18.395
Well, Pastor Chase, I have a question for you that's really important. Are you ready?

00:48:18.622 --> 00:48:24.618
What was invented in 1908 in Manchester, England?

00:48:24.967 --> 00:48:29.069
Well, it just so happens I know the answer to that question because I did a

00:48:29.069 --> 00:48:30.739
little bit of research before the show.

00:48:30.739 --> 00:48:34.799
I want to be a soda academic when I grow up. And the answer to that question

00:48:34.799 --> 00:48:44.617
is Vim Tonic, which was brought about by the famous Mangunian urban spice merchant, a guy named John Noel.

00:48:44.762 --> 00:48:45.149
Yeah.

00:48:45.609 --> 00:48:50.309
And we're going to find out shortly whether we should thank John Noel or go,

00:48:50.869 --> 00:48:52.529
I don't know, spit on his grave or something.

00:48:52.529 --> 00:48:56.889
Well, Vim Tonic was intended to give people Vim and Vigor.

00:48:57.329 --> 00:49:00.708
I love that. Vim and Vigor. I want more Vim and Vigor.

00:49:00.940 --> 00:49:05.979
I need Vim and Vigor. I often feel like this, and even though it started in

00:49:05.979 --> 00:49:11.029
Manchester, England, Chase, it's sold today in more than 60 countries

00:49:11.549 --> 00:49:16.020
and is especially popular in the United Kingdom and the Middle East.

00:49:16.125 --> 00:49:21.359
Okay, that's fantastic. Yeah. And even though the Every Church Flourishing podcast

00:49:21.359 --> 00:49:27.746
was started in California, USA, it is heard in dozens of countries, maybe close to 60.

00:49:28.019 --> 00:49:32.849
Okay. Well, I don't know if any of those countries are in the Middle East, but

00:49:33.169 --> 00:49:40.709
apparently Vimto, as Vimtonic is known today, is the cultural staple during

00:49:40.935 --> 00:49:45.022
Ramadan in many Middle Eastern countries.

00:49:45.213 --> 00:49:50.513
So now on a Baptist podcast, we are going to drink the Vimto,

00:49:50.647 --> 00:49:54.069
a deeply popular Middle Eastern soda.

00:49:54.469 --> 00:49:56.689
What's the flavor profile supposed to be on this thing?

00:49:56.689 --> 00:50:03.801
It's got a mix of 23 fruit essences, herbs, and spices. You think, hey, it's grape soda.

00:50:04.113 --> 00:50:09.058
But it's got all sorts of things. Gray, raspberry, blackcurrant.

00:50:09.058 --> 00:50:12.042
Do you know what a blackcurrant is? Because I do not.

00:50:12.251 --> 00:50:13.398
I do know what a blackcurrant is.

00:50:13.398 --> 00:50:13.698
Fill me in.

00:50:13.698 --> 00:50:17.324
Because I grew up drinking blackcurrant cordial.

00:50:17.614 --> 00:50:23.648
What? Because that's very popular in countries where Britain was a colonial power.

00:50:23.648 --> 00:50:24.116
Okay.

00:50:24.337 --> 00:50:27.678
I grew up drinking blackcurrant cordial. That's one of the reasons I'm excited

00:50:27.678 --> 00:50:30.958
about this particular soda. I'm excited about this in the way I think you've

00:50:30.958 --> 00:50:32.440
been excited about some of the other sodas.

00:50:32.748 --> 00:50:36.527
Because I liked the flavor of blackcurrant cordial when I was a kid.

00:50:36.759 --> 00:50:37.198
Okay.

00:50:37.198 --> 00:50:43.568
And having a blackcurrant profile, which is supposed to be strong in this particular

00:50:43.568 --> 00:50:49.310
soda, is hopefully going to be as refreshing as I remember having blackcurrant cordial.

00:50:49.426 --> 00:50:54.558
I hope so too. Were you a part of Her Majesty's Army, the imperialists that

00:50:54.558 --> 00:50:56.328
basically conquered most of the world?

00:50:56.328 --> 00:50:58.000
I was not myself.

00:50:58.180 --> 00:50:59.018
Okay, okay.

00:50:59.638 --> 00:51:08.083
But as a little child, I had friends that were heavily from the greater commonwealth nations.

00:51:08.256 --> 00:51:13.828
So a lot of kids from Australia, New Zealand, anywhere where the commonwealth

00:51:13.828 --> 00:51:15.878
was, Hong Kong, Singapore.

00:51:15.878 --> 00:51:18.943
So you didn't conquer other nations personally?

00:51:19.047 --> 00:51:20.578
I did not. I did not.

00:51:20.578 --> 00:51:20.878
Okay, that's good.

00:51:20.878 --> 00:51:25.808
But they have a lot of British cultural things. So a black currant cordial,

00:51:25.808 --> 00:51:28.359
cordial is a concentrated fruit syrup, right?

00:51:28.550 --> 00:51:32.038
Right. And typically when I was a kid, it would be mixed with like either a

00:51:32.038 --> 00:51:34.175
still or a sparkling water that was cold.

00:51:34.941 --> 00:51:36.598
And it was very tasty.

00:51:37.518 --> 00:51:41.513
There was an orange one that was for some reason always called squash.

00:51:41.832 --> 00:51:47.057
But the best known black cordial, black currant one is called ribena.

00:51:47.335 --> 00:51:48.518
Never heard of that. Okay.

00:51:48.518 --> 00:51:53.587
I loved ribena when I was a kid. My family couldn't afford ribena. We were poor.

00:51:53.907 --> 00:52:00.368
But I had wealthier friends that could afford Ribena and I got to go to their house and drink Ribena.

00:52:00.583 --> 00:52:04.200
Oh, maybe we have to get some Ribena on the podcast at some point soon.

00:52:04.513 --> 00:52:10.140
Okay. Before we crack these open, I look at the risk of saying something dangerous

00:52:10.140 --> 00:52:12.284
and culturally offensive.

00:52:12.429 --> 00:52:18.260
When I look at this can and look, I'm not a scholar of the Middle East or of

00:52:18.260 --> 00:52:24.520
the Islamic faith. But when I look at this can, it does not scream Ramadan to me.

00:52:24.520 --> 00:52:28.671
It does not. Perhaps they package it differently in the Middle East.

00:52:29.650 --> 00:52:33.247
Maybe in the Middle East, it doesn't say love the taste or your money back.

00:52:33.444 --> 00:52:39.230
That seems like a distinctly American packaging of this particular product or

00:52:39.230 --> 00:52:41.065
maybe for the U.S. market.

00:52:41.635 --> 00:52:43.916
Hey, what's that green thing on there?

00:52:44.061 --> 00:52:45.780
I think it's supposed to be a grape.

00:52:46.058 --> 00:52:47.486
Oh, okay, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:52:47.666 --> 00:52:50.447
Yeah, but interestingly, I don't know if you noticed, Chase,

00:52:50.592 --> 00:52:52.930
it has barley malt in here.

00:52:52.930 --> 00:52:55.207
Oh, so it's sort of beerish.

00:52:55.479 --> 00:53:00.300
Well, you know, I'm on a Baptist podcast. Yeah, really? Right, exactly.

00:53:00.300 --> 00:53:03.460
Let's check the alcohol content. Okay, I think we're good. Okay,

00:53:04.080 --> 00:53:07.540
I'm ready. Look, you've got me excited. I'm ready.

00:53:07.880 --> 00:53:11.200
I'm excited. After all the bad things you have made me try.

00:53:12.240 --> 00:53:16.788
Wait a minute. This isn't me. We are supplied these drinks by our podcast overlord,

00:53:16.933 --> 00:53:20.723
Miss Grace. It's so true. We are just slaves to her whims.

00:53:21.320 --> 00:53:25.530
And she does seem to enjoy torturing us. All right. Apparently. I'm ready for my go-to.

00:53:25.540 --> 00:53:26.030
Okay, let's go.

00:53:26.030 --> 00:53:30.430
Oh, now see, that's a pleasant smell right there.

00:53:30.430 --> 00:53:36.490
It takes you back to your childhood conquering nations for the queen and country. There we go.

00:53:36.606 --> 00:53:39.828
It smells a little bitter to me. Whoa, you already tasted it. I better catch up.

00:53:39.967 --> 00:53:40.849
I was eager.

00:53:41.192 --> 00:53:50.050
Mmm, that's yummy. And it does have a little, it reminds me a lot of the aftertaste. Iron brew.

00:53:50.100 --> 00:53:51.190
Of iron brew.

00:53:51.190 --> 00:53:55.408
Yeah. Iron brew. Because it has a little bit of a, I don't know if bitter is the right word.

00:53:56.680 --> 00:53:59.623
I think it's that barley malt in there, I think.

00:53:59.797 --> 00:54:01.620
Yes, I think you might be right.

00:54:01.620 --> 00:54:03.020
Yeah. Interesting.

00:54:03.020 --> 00:54:13.577
It's got a flavor that is somewhat unfathomable, somewhat difficult to describe, but I really like it.

00:54:13.971 --> 00:54:16.543
Trying to see what kind of, how many calories it's got.

00:54:16.972 --> 00:54:22.394
18 kilocalories. Is that the same as 18 calories? I don't know.

00:54:22.394 --> 00:54:23.274
I'm not British.

00:54:23.754 --> 00:54:26.594
I don't know that either. We might need to look that up.

00:54:26.914 --> 00:54:32.254
I am. Okay. 18 kilocalories is 18,000 calories? What?

00:54:32.654 --> 00:54:32.774
No.

00:54:33.534 --> 00:54:37.094
No, surely not. Maybe I'm reading that wrong. Hmm.

00:54:39.519 --> 00:54:41.545
73 KJ. Kilojoules?

00:54:41.777 --> 00:54:42.144
Yeah.

00:54:42.144 --> 00:54:45.594
18 Kcal. Surely that means kilocalories.

00:54:47.034 --> 00:54:48.504
I don't know. I don't know.

00:54:48.504 --> 00:54:51.373
What is a K-Cal? There we go.

00:54:52.214 --> 00:54:56.998
Oh, okay. K-Cal stands for kilocalorie. In everyday language and nutrition,

00:54:57.311 --> 00:55:01.031
one K-Cal is exactly equal to one calorie.

00:55:01.165 --> 00:55:05.234
Well, that's confusing, England. Right. But 18 calories for this can,

00:55:05.547 --> 00:55:08.234
that's good. That's a good deal. This is tasty.

00:55:08.754 --> 00:55:12.774
No, it's per 100 milliliters. How many milliliters? This is three. What?

00:55:13.564 --> 00:55:22.301
Yeah, this is whatever three times 18 is, which is 54 and another half. So 60 calories.

00:55:22.591 --> 00:55:25.197
That's actually not bad, Chase. 60 calories.

00:55:25.342 --> 00:55:31.327
It's not as bad as Lester's Fixin's, which is 170 calories per bottle.

00:55:31.478 --> 00:55:34.734
But I still wouldn't call it a diet beverage. It's kind of an in-betweener.

00:55:34.734 --> 00:55:38.324
Yeah. Yeah. It's not a diet beverage. That's true.

00:55:38.324 --> 00:55:41.741
But I like it. I can't tell what you think. What do you think?

00:55:42.414 --> 00:55:46.682
So here's the thing. I'm a little bit disappointed because I had hyped it up so much in my mind.

00:55:46.809 --> 00:55:51.654
I would say this, I wanted that stronger black currant flavor.

00:55:51.654 --> 00:55:52.374
Okay, gotcha.

00:55:52.374 --> 00:55:58.216
I enjoy the bubbles on this. The color is really nice. It's a pretty light purple.

00:55:58.355 --> 00:56:01.437
It's a little too grape soda-y for me.

00:56:01.582 --> 00:56:04.624
But I think if you like grape soda, you probably would like this a little bit

00:56:04.624 --> 00:56:06.110
more. I was hoping for a stronger.

00:56:06.330 --> 00:56:11.137
I do like that back end barley malt flavor, whatever that is that's on there.

00:56:11.259 --> 00:56:11.534
Yeah.

00:56:11.914 --> 00:56:15.009
A little more distinctive, I guess, is what I was thinking.

00:56:15.131 --> 00:56:21.237
If you're super disappointed, unfortunately for you, the can says that the money-back guarantee...

00:56:21.608 --> 00:56:30.020
Is only in effect from 01-07-25 to 30-09-25, which are obviously made up dates,

00:56:30.020 --> 00:56:33.572
but appear to be in the last year.

00:56:34.019 --> 00:56:36.740
I know they're not made up dates. I'm just aggravating our British.

00:56:36.740 --> 00:56:43.810
Right. That's exactly, exactly. Well, if you are in the United Kingdom and you are listening to

00:56:44.290 --> 00:56:49.080
our Every Church Flourishing podcast, we are so excited that you are one of

00:56:49.080 --> 00:56:54.740
those listeners that we have detected on our streaming tool that helps us figure

00:56:54.740 --> 00:56:57.672
out where people are listening, and we're grateful that you are listening to us.

00:56:57.922 --> 00:57:02.746
And if you have other sodas from the United Kingdom that you want us to try,

00:57:03.210 --> 00:57:08.713
and you send us one of those sodas, we will send you some Every Church Flourishing swag.

00:57:09.027 --> 00:57:13.235
Or if you just send us a reference and we pick it up, we will absolutely do that.

00:57:14.410 --> 00:57:18.767
And let us know your thoughts about Demto. Or if you're in the Middle East,

00:57:18.953 --> 00:57:24.310
Let us know if it has a different can than this or in the Middle East,

00:57:24.310 --> 00:57:26.714
it says love the taste or your money back.

00:57:27.088 --> 00:57:33.453
Are we authorized to offer days out of purgatory for participation in imperialism

00:57:33.453 --> 00:57:35.633
for our UK listeners or not?

00:57:35.633 --> 00:57:39.109
I don't think that's actually authorized for Baptists.

00:57:39.255 --> 00:57:39.693
Oh, my bad.

00:57:40.333 --> 00:57:45.693
We kind of leave that over to the folks on the other side. Okay.

00:57:45.693 --> 00:57:49.133
The Tiber. I'll just check. I've only been a Baptist for a few decades now.

00:57:49.433 --> 00:57:51.273
I don't feel like I've learned all about it.

00:57:51.313 --> 00:57:55.973
You haven't quite figured out which side of the Tiber River you're on.

00:57:56.662 --> 00:57:59.543
No, no, I have not. Hopefully I'll get there.

00:57:59.543 --> 00:58:02.873
Like C.S. Lewis, you don't know which side of the time we're on.

00:58:02.873 --> 00:58:04.853
So you're in good company there.

00:58:05.132 --> 00:58:09.983
So Pastor Chase, what is your Spurgeon rating for Demto?

00:58:09.983 --> 00:58:13.353
Yeah, this is like, it's going to be strong. I really like this stuff.

00:58:13.353 --> 00:58:17.165
I like something that's unique. It's fresh. I'm going to say four and a half Spurgeons.

00:58:17.310 --> 00:58:19.882
Four and a half? Yeah, it's Charles Spurgeon himself.

00:58:20.553 --> 00:58:24.243
I have the bad habit, or most people say it's a bad habit, of drinking a soda

00:58:24.243 --> 00:58:25.681
or drink every time I preach.

00:58:26.001 --> 00:58:29.478
Charles Spurgeon would drink this while he preached. I'm pretty sure.

00:58:29.623 --> 00:58:35.712
Wow. I think Spurgeon probably would drink Vim Tonic and get his Vim and vigor up.

00:58:35.852 --> 00:58:41.783
And I really would like to say that I would give it a higher rating,

00:58:41.783 --> 00:58:45.128
but the truth is I'm going to give it three and a half Spurge.

00:58:45.412 --> 00:58:47.578
That's not terrible. No, it's not bad.

00:58:48.033 --> 00:58:51.351
It's good. I would drink it again if somebody passed it to me at a party.

00:58:51.502 --> 00:58:56.103
I would enjoy it. But I just am a little bit disappointed. I expected there

00:58:56.103 --> 00:58:59.041
a little more of them and a little more bigger.

00:58:59.436 --> 00:59:03.243
All right. Well, I'm happy. So this is two in a row where I've been a little

00:59:03.243 --> 00:59:06.133
more positive than you, Pastor Christopher. If it's three in a row.

00:59:06.513 --> 00:59:07.933
Just in general in life, I think.

00:59:07.933 --> 00:59:12.863
Yeah. We might just have to check in with your therapist and counselor and make sure you're okay.

00:59:12.863 --> 00:59:13.780
That's exactly.

00:59:15.944 --> 00:59:21.646
That is so correct. That is a wise idea for us to check in there.

00:59:22.221 --> 00:59:26.974
Okay, well, that was a good soda. And now it's time to say goodbye to Jed and

00:59:26.974 --> 00:59:30.626
all his friends and your friends at the Every Church Flourishing Podcast.

00:59:30.922 --> 00:59:36.174
But before we go out for the week, I do want to point you to a couple of upcoming

00:59:36.174 --> 00:59:43.234
events with our Great Commission Association Family of Churches in September, September 19th.

00:59:43.234 --> 00:59:48.105
The Flourish Equipping Conference for Women in Ministry is happening,

00:59:48.372 --> 00:59:55.656
and that is going to be at Journey Christian Fellowship, which is in San Louis Obispo, California.

00:59:55.877 --> 01:00:01.564
If you want to sign up for that, just go to gcasbc.org slash flourish,

01:00:01.884 --> 01:00:07.874
And I am teaching the next Great Commission Training Institute class on church

01:00:07.874 --> 01:00:11.544
history, which starts August 25th.

01:00:11.544 --> 01:00:16.304
I can't wait. I love early church fathers. I love early church history.

01:00:16.606 --> 01:00:22.964
It's going to be a blast. It's really inexpensive, but also a good deal in terms of education.

01:00:22.964 --> 01:00:26.224
And the GCTI has all sorts of classes.

01:00:26.224 --> 01:00:32.104
You can check those out on our website, gcasbc.org.

01:00:32.104 --> 01:00:37.844
And if you want show notes for today's episode or any other episode of the podcast,

01:00:37.844 --> 01:00:43.854
just go to our webpage for the podcast itself, which is Every Church Flourishing.

01:00:43.854 --> 01:00:47.944
We would love to hear from you. You can leave us a message through our website.

01:00:47.944 --> 01:00:49.631
You can leave us a voicemail.

01:00:50.084 --> 01:00:52.491
Good day to you and Godspeed.