April 6, 2026

Episode 11: Grappling with Grief and Helping The Grieving, Friendships in the Church Part 2, and Fruity Pebbles Soda?! With Dr. Michael Stewart, Pastor Grant Combs, and Dr. Chris Smith.

Show Notes
Transcript

“They don’t need you to bandaid their gaping wound; they need you to be present in their grief.”

Dr. Michael Stewart, the head of California’s Great Commission Association of Churches, and podcast host Dr. Chase Thompson interview Dr. Chris Smith, a former missionary and current leader of the Great Commission Training Institution, an online ministry training school, and Pastor Grant Combs, the pastor of Lighthouse Baptist Church in Seaside, California. We are talking about relationships in the church. How can pastors and leaders cultivate deep friendships inside the church, and how can pastors protect their families well inside the church? The advantage of having great deacons. How can introverts in the church manage over-peopling? How can pastors and church leaders make deep friends that are safe to confide in?

Dr. Chris Smith: “If I'm not in a good place, if I'm not serving and ministering from the overflow of what God is doing in my life, and that includes the community of others and the love that I have for others, then it's not going to be real. And it's not going to be a place where we can truly see God work in a miraculous way that we have that genuine community that's around us.”

Podcast by the Great Commission Association. GCASBC.Net - NEW WEBSITE. If you are a pastor looking for a team - a family - we want to hear from you!

In the second half of the podcast, we talk deeply about grief, and how to help those who are grieving.

Liquid Death Cereal Criminal Fruity Pebbles flavor. Upcoming: Cheerwine and Irn-Bru, the soda "Made in Scotland from Girders". But not tonight because caffeine. “You think you’re about to be in Heaven, but then the aftertaste kicks in, and you realize you are in soda purgatory.”

“They don’t need you to bandaid their gaping wound; they need you to be present in their grief.”

WEBVTT

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Leaders and pastors find health, encouragement, practical advice,

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soul care, and resources that work together to build up your local fellowship

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and the broader kingdom of God.

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Join hosts, Pastor Chris Cole

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and Dr. Chase Thompson from the Great Commission Association, led by Dr.

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Mike Stewart, as they explore the frontiers of ministry and aim for the goal

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of making every church flourish.

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And hello, everybody, and welcome in to episode number 11 of the Every Church

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Flourishing Podcast. I am your host, Chase Thompson, pastor of Valley Baptist

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Church in Salinas, California.

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The Every Church Flourishing podcast is put out by the Great Commission Association

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of Churches, which is in California, led by Dr. Michael Stewart.

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And he is here today, the head of the GCA, as well as my co-host on this episode.

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And we are finishing up our interview with Dr.

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Chris Smith, who is a former missionary

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and a current leader of the Great Commission Training Institution,

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an online ministry training school, and Pastor Grant Combs out of lovely Lighthouse

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Baptist Church in Seaside, California.

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And on the episode today in our main interview, we're talking about relationships

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in the church. How did that work?

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How do they work from the perspective of being a pastor, being a deacon,

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being a church leader? How can

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pastors and church leaders cultivate deep friendships inside the church?

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How can pastors protect their families well inside the church?

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The advantage of having great deacons and relationships with deacons,

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and how can introverts in the church manage the issue of overpeopling?

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And we're also going to talk about kind of the issue that church leaders might

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have in finding people that are...

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I guess you would say worthy of confiding in.

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Now, you can check out our website, which is everychurchflourishing.com.

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But I also want to point you to the Great Commission Association website, which is gcasbc.net.

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That's gcasbc.net. It is a brand new designed website. It looks great.

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And if you are a pastor or church leader in the California area and you're looking

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for a team to join with, we want to hear from you.

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So go to our website and contact us at gcasbc.net.

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After the main interviews, we are going to review a pretty remarkable soda.

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The Liquid Death Serial Criminal Fruity Pebbles flavor.

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That's going to be pretty interesting. And we're also going to talk about the issue of grief,

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how to help people who are going through the grieving process,

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and how not to help people going through the grieving process.

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We're going to look at some things that might be harmful.

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Last week, we had part one of our interview with Dr. Chris Smith,

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Pastor Grant Combs, and Dr. Michael Stewart.

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This week, we're picking up right in the middle of part two of that interview.

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So let's dive right into the middle of that interview, and afterwards,

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we're going to drink a soda together and go deep on the issue of grief.

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Well, Dr. Chris Smith, you have maybe the broadest ministry experience of all

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of us, working as a teacher of pastors,

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working as a missionary, and you add in your wife, Kathy, who has been involved

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in so many facets of women's ministry.

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You guys are going to have a ton of wisdom, I think, on this question.

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So what do you think, Dr. Chris?

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Is it appropriate for pastors and high-level church leaders to be friends with the congregation?

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Do you have cautions there? What's your take?

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Yeah, I would say many things that Grant and Dr.

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Mike have said, I think very wise counsel, very practical.

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One thing I would add, I think, is 1 Thessalonians 2, where Paul is talking

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about his relationship with the church.

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And this is something that we adopted very early in our ministry,

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Kathy and I, on the mission field in Spain and other places.

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And where it says in verse eight, it was talking about how Paul cares for the

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church and he says, we loved you so much.

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We were delighted to share with you not only the gospel of God, but our lives as well.

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That, you know, on the mission field, that's what you have to do, right?

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We were in an unreached people group, Pioneer Field, and you have to share your

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life, fully share your life and show the love of God.

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And I would say that's the same within the church context that in this passage,

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Paul describes this relationship as a nursing other cares for her children,

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or also like young children,

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or a spiritual father.

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So it's all of those things, and there is a friendship there.

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But like everyone has said, as Grant and Dr. Mike have said,

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there are levels of friendship. You have to be wise. You have to be careful. You have to be careful.

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And you have to be intentional about cultivating those friendships that are

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outside of your church, that would be kind of your peers.

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And like on the mission field, that would be other missionaries that we worked with.

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Or in this context, sometimes it's with pastors that aren't Southern Baptist pastors.

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It's with someone who's not in our immediate circle, but that are very like-minded

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in that way. And so I think that that's helpful.

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You know, the only other thing I'd throw in is you have to guard your heart.

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You really have to guard your family.

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That's one of the most dangerous things is when you're going through something,

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it's probably has something to do with your kids or your wife.

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And to expose them to the congregation is just downright wrong.

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Like that's how to have a short, miserable ministry life.

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And so, you know, I would even say to continue to build in to friendship with

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mentors that were there when you were young that you can go to for that kind

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of stuff is just so important because,

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I mean, we have to take care of our heart.

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But making sure that your kids have the freedom to be kids, your wife has the

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freedom to be yourself, and that your congregation, your elder board isn't just

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hearing you gripe about them is, I think, very important.

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Yeah, I just, I totally agree, especially about the mentors.

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So I just had, since last week, I had lunch with, he used to be my youth minister.

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So he, we got to know each other when we were 14 years old. When I was 14, he wasn't 14.

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That would be a very interesting youth minister. If he was 14 and I was 14,

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that'd be a fun youth group, I guess. But, you know, I was 14 years old and

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we've known each other for many years.

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And so it has developed into, yes, he's definitely a mentor, but it's a friendship.

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It goes both ways now because we're in different seasons of our life.

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And it is, you know, you leave those times just with your soul spiritually refreshed

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because you have someone to talk to that knows you,

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I mean, for years and years and years, and he's still stuck around.

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He's known me since I was a teenager, and he's still stuck around.

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He still talks to me. So that's a good sign, right?

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I praise God for that, those kind of mentors and leaders.

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Well, let me give my take real quick, and then I'll ask you guys one more question

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in closing along these lines. I was, like I said, raised sort of with that idea,

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be careful about being friends in the congregation.

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And I basically ignored that advice, but tried to walk in the kind of wisdom

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that Dr. Stewart was exhorting.

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I have found some of the deepest friendships of my life in the congregation

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of churches I've pastored. Obviously,

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all the cautions you guys said are incredibly, incredibly important.

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Even just this past week, though, I had a situation, an external situation outside

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of the church that was relatively frustrating to me. And I wanted to get some wisdom.

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And so I texted our head deacon.

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His name's Gary. Shout out Gary. He's older than me and got a lot of experience.

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And we talked on the phone.

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And just having that kind of a relationship with a guy like that in your church, it's.

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It was invaluable wisdom from him. And I would say if you're a pastor,

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look for those kind of people who you really can trust that will not,

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you know, knife you in the back.

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That's good advice for any friendship.

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But find some people who will hold your secrets with integrity or whatever, not secrets.

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Just hold your conversations with integrity.

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We ordained, well, not ordained. We introduced some new deacons to the church

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Sunday and my wife took a picture of them. We have nine now.

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And she sent the picture to me after church, after I woke up from my nap.

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And I always take a nap on Sundays. And just seeing those guys just filled my heart with.

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Incredible joy because there's such a wide variety from age early to 70s,

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all sorts of backgrounds and

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just delightful guys that love Jesus and are spotty like the rest of us.

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I know that's not every pastor's experience with deacons, but I am grateful

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for the team that we have.

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So one last kind of question, and I think this is an issue that may prevent

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pastors from having deep friendships outside of the church. I think it's the Barna study.

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Yeah, it's Barna, George Barna study that says only one in three pastors.

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So, you know, one third of pastors have someone outside their church they can

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confide in with deep issues.

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And if that person is like, well, I can't be friends with people in the church

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and I don't have friends outside of the church, obviously they're headed for a huge shipwreck.

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And my take on one of the dynamics there, And I think Dr. Stewart and Pastor

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Grant and probably Dr. Chris too, you guys can identify with this.

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When I go to church on Sunday morning or I go to for a, you know,

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Wednesday night or any kind of get together, basically a hundred,

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it feels like maybe 110% of the time I'm talking and interacting with people.

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Like from the moment I set foot on the property to usually the last one out.

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And I think you can come out of that, even if you're delighted with the people

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you're talking to, you can come out of that a little over-peopled,

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which might mean the first couple of days of the week, you're like, hey,

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I just, you know, I need to sit in a dark closet and not talk to anybody.

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So given that dynamic, what are some practical ways you guys have found that.

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We've already hinted around at some of them, but as we go out,

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what are some practical ways you guys have found for pastors who might struggle

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a little bit with overpeopling, oversaturation, time schedules?

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How do we make good, deep friends that we can really confide in?

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Well, I think you're probably speaking as an introvert because the extrovert,

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he's just, he's dancing on clouds as he leads church because he had all the,

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he had more conversations in a short period of time.

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So I'm really normally jazzed when I leave church, and I'm normally thinking

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about, who didn't I say hello to?

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I think about that, too, yeah.

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And who wasn't there? And so I'm pretty jazzed about that, which is also a trap

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because in the sense of, for me, I try to get quiet.

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Sheila and I always have lunch together, might have it with other people.

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But I like to try to get quiet in the afternoon and just thank God for the work

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he's doing inside the congregation I was with that day and make sure I have

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that kind of conversation with him.

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But the overpeopling, it just depends on how God's wired you.

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And you've got to do people.

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You've got to do people. We once had a pastor who came and told me he really

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needed to confess something to me.

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I said, what is it? He said, I don't like kids.

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Yeah. I don't like kids. I said, and have the parents noticed?

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That is kind of a requirement. I don't know if anybody told you,

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but there is a story about Jesus and kids.

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I thought to myself, I've never encountered this before. You don't like kids.

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And this is going to be a challenge for you to, you know, be excited about your

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children's ministry really growing.

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So I just think, you know, you understand who God has made you.

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But, you know, you're just going to have to, you know, work that out for yourself

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about even an extrovert, he will do too much people.

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And that's what he'll be drawn to all. He won't do the alone time that he needs to do with God.

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And so I think they're both, you know, they're both healthy tensions in that.

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But take the day off. Don't answer your phone.

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Don't read 900 emails on your day off. You know, set your timer,

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set your settings that, hey, I'm unavailable right now.

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Now, nobody does that, but that's what we should do to say that we can be recharged

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and we're going to focus on our family. And I got those tools are all there.

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And I am, you know, I'm guilty of, you know, physician heal thyself.

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But if I really want that, if I really want to make sure I'm balanced and careful,

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I take a Sabbath and it's a real Sabbath.

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And maybe that's a good word for somebody listening today.

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Good word for me when I'm feeling kind of frazzled.

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Absolutely. We're actually going to talk in the next couple episodes,

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we're going to talk about how to rest like that. That's good.

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So what do you guys think, Pastor Grant, Dr. Gris?

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Yeah, I think that one way you can be over-peopled is we're constantly dealing

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with difficult people or divisive

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people or, you know, people that just kind of consume your energy.

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So even though that you're, you know, you might be around different people, you're okay with that.

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Your personality is okay with that. It's the nature of the relationship that

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makes it more difficult. Because people know, okay, that's the pastor.

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He's got it all together. He's, you know, he's the one that knows everything

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and he knows the scripture and he knows.

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And so that puts you, you know, putting you on that pedestal and seeing you

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as an authority on everything.

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And that can be challenging because the fact is we're people,

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you know, we have difficult days and we have struggles.

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And a lot of times we just don't have that avenue like others have to talk about

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the problems that we have to deal with in our family.

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Grant mentioned earlier, you know, to protect your family.

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And it's not just us, but our whole family is affected by this calling that

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God has placed on our lives.

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So we, again, I just go back to we just have to be intentional about it because we get so busy.

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And there's always so much to do, and we just have to make it a priority in

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our lives because the best gift

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that we can give to our churches and our family is a healthy me, right?

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And so if I'm not in a good place, if I'm not serving and ministering from the

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overflow of what God is doing in my life, and that includes the community of

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others and the love that I have for others, then it's not going to be real.

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And it's not going to be a place where we can truly see God work in a miraculous

00:15:52.608 --> 00:15:58.508
way that we have that genuine community that's around us.

00:15:59.108 --> 00:16:01.728
Excellent quotable. That's going to be in the show notes. Good job,

00:16:01.848 --> 00:16:05.948
Dr. Chris. And that leaves you with the last word for us, Pastor Grant. What do you got?

00:16:06.388 --> 00:16:07.708
Yeah, I would just add two things.

00:16:07.868 --> 00:16:11.328
I think, first of all, you got to be purposeful with your schedule.

00:16:11.328 --> 00:16:16.928
If you have a wide open calendar and you're just sitting here wondering who's

00:16:16.928 --> 00:16:20.668
going to fill it, it will get filled and that will be exhausting.

00:16:20.968 --> 00:16:26.268
So to have some ideas about who is it that I should be connecting with,

00:16:26.268 --> 00:16:28.408
who is it that I'm pouring into right now?

00:16:28.748 --> 00:16:34.488
I can't be pouring into 100 people, but I can be pouring into 10 or 15 over the course of a month.

00:16:34.628 --> 00:16:37.788
So who is it that I'm discipling? Who is it that I'm connecting with?

00:16:37.868 --> 00:16:41.168
Who is it that really needs me that I'm going to make time for?

00:16:41.328 --> 00:16:44.848
And then, of course, you have to be interruptible and approachable.

00:16:44.928 --> 00:16:49.968
And when somebody has a crisis or there's, look, Jesus loves difficult people, too.

00:16:50.248 --> 00:16:52.748
You need to treat them like Jesus was there.

00:16:53.048 --> 00:16:57.428
So there has to be that. But I think you have to be purposeful with your calendar.

00:16:57.768 --> 00:16:58.928
And then the

00:16:58.928 --> 00:17:02.448
Other thing that I think is a skill that takes years and years to grow.

00:17:02.568 --> 00:17:05.628
You can say this and it's easy to understand, but it takes a long time.

00:17:05.628 --> 00:17:13.548
But I think it's just really important to decide who has your ear and who doesn't. So a.

00:17:13.548 --> 00:17:14.088
Lot of people

00:17:14.088 --> 00:17:14.808
Are going to say stuff.

00:17:15.578 --> 00:17:19.098
And not everybody's, all of the information is not equal.

00:17:19.658 --> 00:17:20.518
And so I

00:17:20.518 --> 00:17:23.278
Have some people in my church that go, hey, just so you know,

00:17:23.438 --> 00:17:26.918
you're a lousy pastor and I can't believe you can even tie your shoes.

00:17:27.098 --> 00:17:30.518
And you go, well, thank you very much. I'll see you at the potluck,

00:17:30.638 --> 00:17:32.818
you know, and you just, you just have to let that go.

00:17:32.978 --> 00:17:35.838
Like, you're just going to have to say, Jesus, they might be right.

00:17:36.038 --> 00:17:39.858
I might, but you've called a dummy like

00:17:39.858 --> 00:17:42.778
Me and here we go. But then there's other people who go, hey,

00:17:43.158 --> 00:17:47.618
you know, Grant, you really missed it right here. Or we saw the way you responded

00:17:47.618 --> 00:17:50.918
to somebody or Grant, we've noticed this in your life.

00:17:51.098 --> 00:17:57.598
And you go, oh, no, these are people that I need to listen to when they have something for me.

00:17:57.598 --> 00:18:01.898
So learning to discern that not every interaction, like you,

00:18:02.058 --> 00:18:06.658
even as a relative introvert, not every interaction wears me out.

00:18:06.958 --> 00:18:10.598
I'm here to love this person, but they don't have my heart.

00:18:10.858 --> 00:18:15.398
But then there's other people that really have my heart and I need to pay attention.

00:18:15.758 --> 00:18:17.778
And so learning that.

00:18:17.778 --> 00:18:19.078
Skill and then,

00:18:19.078 --> 00:18:23.018
You know, being wise with your calendar, I think are helpful.

00:18:23.662 --> 00:18:27.422
Well, that's a great place to end. Guys, I think this has been a conversation

00:18:27.422 --> 00:18:29.882
that went about 25 minutes more than I expected.

00:18:30.142 --> 00:18:36.742
And I think every minute was valuable. You got a mixture of really deep spiritual

00:18:36.742 --> 00:18:41.382
encouragement and probably some exhortation as well if you're a pastor or a church leader.

00:18:41.522 --> 00:18:45.322
But you also probably, to use kind of a more modern phrase,

00:18:45.522 --> 00:18:50.382
you probably felt seen if you're a pastor or church leader because I think all

00:18:50.382 --> 00:18:56.122
of these guys really gave us some of the benefits of their decades of experience

00:18:56.122 --> 00:18:58.242
in various roles in the church.

00:18:58.502 --> 00:19:03.322
So I hope that conversation was helpful and encouraging for you and opened up

00:19:03.322 --> 00:19:05.742
your thinking on the whole issue of relationships.

00:19:05.742 --> 00:19:11.042
Now we've got another deep topic to dive into, but between the two deep topics,

00:19:11.222 --> 00:19:15.702
we're going to be really shallow and really sweet right now.

00:19:15.862 --> 00:19:20.342
The soda I've got to review today is fascinating.

00:19:20.702 --> 00:19:24.402
I love cereal and I love soda.

00:19:24.542 --> 00:19:31.342
And this is a drink that claims to combine both of those loves.

00:19:31.522 --> 00:19:36.822
And it's called Liquid Death Cereal Criminal Fruity Pebbles Flavor.

00:19:37.002 --> 00:19:41.122
And I'm really looking forward to trying this. Upcoming episodes of the show,

00:19:41.222 --> 00:19:45.522
we've got a couple of submissions from listeners that have been scent in,

00:19:45.802 --> 00:19:51.662
Iron Brew, the soda made in Scotland from Girders, and Cheerwine,

00:19:51.762 --> 00:19:53.622
which is a soda from the south,

00:19:53.842 --> 00:19:56.742
both of which I'm really looking forward to tasting and reviewing,

00:19:56.942 --> 00:20:01.402
but we're not going to do those tonight because as I record this,

00:20:01.522 --> 00:20:04.602
it's pretty late and they both have caffeine in it.

00:20:04.702 --> 00:20:07.682
So before I get to the review, let's do a little quick.

00:20:08.143 --> 00:20:11.423
Fruity Pebbles trivia, one of my favorite cereals.

00:20:11.743 --> 00:20:16.923
Unlike Froot Loops, which all taste the same despite having different colors,

00:20:17.183 --> 00:20:22.603
the individual flakes in Fruity Pebbles actually do have distinct flavor notes.

00:20:22.803 --> 00:20:26.823
The yellow, green, and oranges are kind of citrusy. The reds,

00:20:26.903 --> 00:20:29.963
blues, and purple are more berry flavored.

00:20:30.403 --> 00:20:35.083
Fruity Pebbles is a cereal that is older than me, and I'm a pretty old dude.

00:20:35.083 --> 00:20:42.663
They were first introduced on the West Coast in 1969, and they were called pebbles at the time,

00:20:42.703 --> 00:20:47.983
but they were very popular, and that led to a national distribution under the

00:20:47.983 --> 00:20:51.243
name Fruity Pebbles, and in 1970,

00:20:51.463 --> 00:20:54.183
shortly after that, Cocoa Pebbles was introduced.

00:20:54.543 --> 00:20:57.663
So Fruity Pebbles came first, then Cocoa Pebbles.

00:20:57.823 --> 00:21:02.683
Originally, they were going to be called Flint Chips and Rubble Stones,

00:21:02.723 --> 00:21:04.743
and unfortunately, Unfortunately.

00:21:05.183 --> 00:21:09.463
Or fortunately, if you're a doctor or a nutritionist, Fruity Pebbles and Cocoa

00:21:09.463 --> 00:21:16.603
Pebbles were reformulated in the early 2010s to reduce the amount of sugar.

00:21:16.603 --> 00:21:23.843
When I was growing up, Fruity Pebbles had 12 grams of sugar per three-quarter cup serving.

00:21:24.183 --> 00:21:28.943
Now it's only nine grams, and I can taste the difference.

00:21:28.943 --> 00:21:36.143
It's not quite as good. In the 1980s, the wrestler Hulk Hogan sued Post because

00:21:36.143 --> 00:21:43.443
of a commercial that featured Fred and Barney Flintstone wrestling a character called Hulk Boulder.

00:21:43.803 --> 00:21:50.203
So, let's give this thing a taste and see how it is. It's got a great can.

00:21:50.403 --> 00:21:55.323
It's bright, colorful red with a gold top. It looks expensive.

00:21:56.449 --> 00:22:01.349
Oh my, it has a good smell. Look, if you've ever had Fruity Pebbles before,

00:22:01.669 --> 00:22:06.989
I don't know of any other fruit flavor that tastes like Fruity Pebbles.

00:22:07.209 --> 00:22:10.469
And look, as far as I'm concerned, 50-something-year-old dude,

00:22:10.649 --> 00:22:13.649
I love the taste of Fruity Pebbles.

00:22:13.989 --> 00:22:19.489
It's so good, and if this soda's half as good, I'll be impressed. Here we go.

00:22:20.289 --> 00:22:27.389
Wow. And I don't know how they did it, but they somehow captured that unique

00:22:27.389 --> 00:22:29.129
taste of Fruity Pebbles.

00:22:29.529 --> 00:22:33.929
This is good. It only has 10 calories.

00:22:34.789 --> 00:22:38.149
Scratch that. It only has 15 calories.

00:22:38.509 --> 00:22:44.289
And it doesn't seem to have any of those artificial sweeteners that are kind of dangerous.

00:22:44.389 --> 00:22:50.369
It's got a great taste. The only problem is the aftertaste is a little slightly

00:22:50.369 --> 00:22:54.909
off, not quite as good as a bowl of Fruity Pebbles. One more sip.

00:22:55.869 --> 00:23:00.649
But man, I really taste the Fruity Pebbles, which is incredible for a soda.

00:23:00.849 --> 00:23:04.869
I'm going to give this four and a quarter Spurgeons out of five.

00:23:05.049 --> 00:23:10.209
Again, the only thing that keeps it from going higher is that slightly weird

00:23:10.209 --> 00:23:16.829
aftertaste. The first flavor you get is like a five Spurgeon's soda and you

00:23:16.829 --> 00:23:19.869
think you are about to be in heaven.

00:23:20.389 --> 00:23:25.529
And then the aftertaste kicks in and you realize you're in soda purgatory.

00:23:25.729 --> 00:23:28.649
But still, it's not a bad purgatory to be in.

00:23:28.889 --> 00:23:31.409
Four and a quarter Spurgeon's out of five.

00:23:31.729 --> 00:23:36.969
Now we're going to grind those gears and shift hard going from a silly soda

00:23:36.969 --> 00:23:41.729
review to a very, very deep topic. We're going to talk about grief.

00:23:42.069 --> 00:23:45.709
We have, my wife and I have some very dear friends that are right now going

00:23:45.709 --> 00:23:46.849
through the valley of death.

00:23:47.029 --> 00:23:50.669
Not the shadow, the valley of death with their precious daughter.

00:23:52.065 --> 00:23:56.985
It's unimaginably hard, and if you're a pastor or a church leader,

00:23:57.325 --> 00:24:02.005
one of the hardest, most important, but also hardest parts of being a pastor

00:24:02.005 --> 00:24:04.965
is helping people who are going through grief.

00:24:05.145 --> 00:24:10.585
And it's hard because grief hurts, and we have a natural inborn tendency,

00:24:10.585 --> 00:24:13.825
almost every human I've ever met, to want to avoid it.

00:24:14.265 --> 00:24:19.645
Now, I understand not all grief is rooted in death or the danger of death.

00:24:19.885 --> 00:24:26.605
Some griefs are related to divorce and depression and all sorts of things like that.

00:24:26.745 --> 00:24:31.885
But many griefs are rooted in death. And I'm going to focus in a little bit on that today.

00:24:32.165 --> 00:24:39.605
And the problem with death-related grief is it brings us in close contact with

00:24:39.605 --> 00:24:42.365
the literal last enemy, which is death.

00:24:42.625 --> 00:24:48.265
Now, most people might naturally think that God will deal with Satan as potentially

00:24:48.265 --> 00:24:52.445
the worst enemy of the people of God last in some climactic way.

00:24:52.685 --> 00:24:57.405
And indeed, Revelation 20 in the Bible does indicate that God will throw the

00:24:57.405 --> 00:25:02.305
devil into the lake of fire, but he is not the last enemy to go.

00:25:02.625 --> 00:25:09.965
Both Revelation chapter 20 and 1 Corinthians 15, 26 teach that the last enemy

00:25:09.965 --> 00:25:12.025
to be abolished is death.

00:25:12.325 --> 00:25:17.885
And grief brings us close to death. And buddy, that is one scary enemy.

00:25:18.847 --> 00:25:24.227
But pastoring and counseling people in grief isn't just hard because of that dynamic.

00:25:24.387 --> 00:25:30.227
It's also hard because it's difficult to know what to say to somebody who is

00:25:30.227 --> 00:25:32.707
being crushed under the heavy burden of grief.

00:25:32.887 --> 00:25:35.407
And there's a dual dynamic working here.

00:25:35.707 --> 00:25:43.827
First, it's easy and common to say trite, awful, and unhelpful things to people who are grieving.

00:25:43.827 --> 00:25:48.667
And second, people who are grieving tend to remember those trite,

00:25:48.827 --> 00:25:53.847
awful, and unhelpful things that are said to them when they are at their lowest,

00:25:53.847 --> 00:25:58.147
and they remember those things clearly and painfully.

00:25:58.867 --> 00:26:04.807
Many, many formally flourishing friendships have been weakened and even ended

00:26:04.807 --> 00:26:10.147
because people say the wrong thing to their grieving friends and their grieving

00:26:10.147 --> 00:26:18.627
friends at that lowest point of vulnerability find it difficult to forgive and impossible to forget.

00:26:18.847 --> 00:26:23.847
As a pastor, I hear about this dynamic all the time. Our church,

00:26:23.967 --> 00:26:26.047
which is not a huge church, has an.

00:26:27.021 --> 00:26:31.341
An outsized number of parents who have lost precious children.

00:26:31.621 --> 00:26:36.021
And these people are salt of the earth, pillars of the church.

00:26:36.241 --> 00:26:42.041
They are not complainers by any stretch. They're some of our best servers and leaders.

00:26:42.041 --> 00:26:47.241
But I've heard from some of them and others also who have been told silly,

00:26:47.421 --> 00:26:52.341
painful, unhelpful, and untrue things when they were suffering.

00:26:52.341 --> 00:26:57.301
And people remember those conversations all too well.

00:26:57.821 --> 00:27:02.421
So in that spirit, as somebody who has stuck their foot in their mouth often

00:27:02.421 --> 00:27:07.281
enough to remember what it tastes like, let's talk about some actually helpful

00:27:07.281 --> 00:27:12.421
ways to minister to your grieving friends, co-workers, and church members.

00:27:12.641 --> 00:27:19.341
These aren't quick tips and there's not 10 easy ways to fix your grieving friends

00:27:19.341 --> 00:27:27.401
because quickness and efficiency are two things that will not aid your grieving friend at all.

00:27:27.641 --> 00:27:33.001
Listen and understand, if your goal is to swoop in, say a few helpful words

00:27:33.001 --> 00:27:37.101
that makes everything better and then swoop out, maybe you'd better do your

00:27:37.101 --> 00:27:42.361
swooping somewhere else because that mindset will only lead to harm.

00:27:42.601 --> 00:27:47.421
So here's some helps to help people who are grieving.

00:27:47.421 --> 00:27:52.881
Number one, understand that grief, especially the grief that comes from the

00:27:52.881 --> 00:27:58.341
loss of a spouse, a child, a mom, a dad, or a sibling, is overwhelming.

00:27:58.721 --> 00:28:07.181
Potent, powerful, and potentially persistent throughout the remainder of life. And treat grief as...

00:28:07.514 --> 00:28:13.994
In that kind of serious way. Don't expect it to blow over after a few days, weeks, or even years.

00:28:14.174 --> 00:28:17.974
And don't expect to be able to make it better with your words,

00:28:18.114 --> 00:28:22.534
with your phrases, with your sermons, or even with your Bible verses.

00:28:22.814 --> 00:28:29.054
The promise of Jesus to wipe every tear from every eye comes to fruition at his second coming.

00:28:29.274 --> 00:28:35.314
So some, honestly, many of us will be potentially weeping until that day.

00:28:35.314 --> 00:28:41.694
A reformed Christian Reddit user named Paul Flower encapsulated the potency

00:28:41.694 --> 00:28:45.934
of this grief in a post I read three years ago and kind of stuck with me.

00:28:46.134 --> 00:28:51.634
He wrote about the experience of his wife in her mid-30s dying from cancer.

00:28:51.854 --> 00:28:56.654
And this is what he said. And look, it's gut-wrenching, but we have to understand

00:28:56.654 --> 00:29:01.454
this kind of thing to understand grief and how to help people with grief.

00:29:02.114 --> 00:29:07.074
Paul says, When she finally breathed her last, I thought I would have some amount of relief.

00:29:07.354 --> 00:29:13.074
Not so much from the four-year-long struggle, but relief that she was no longer suffering.

00:29:13.434 --> 00:29:19.374
Instead, I still feel completely overwhelmed with grief and loss.

00:29:19.914 --> 00:29:24.354