June 15, 2026

Empowering, Equipping, and Encouraging Women in Ministry in Southern Baptist Churches. SBC Women in Ministry. Complementarian Ministry

Before we say goodbye, let’s hit a few Upcoming events with the GCA - I’ll tell you ONE personal upcoming event, and that is this Tuesday, June 16, Lord willing, Pastor Christopher Cole and I are joined by Gateway Seminary Extension head Dr. Cameron Schweitzer for a wide-ranging discussion that will cover everything from the Nicene Creed, to doing theology in the San Francisco Bay area, to Jonathan Edwards, to training pastors and leaders in the church in the best way possible. Those episodes will drop sometime in late June or July, and next up, we hear again from our friend Dr. Se J. Won, and we will turn our hearts towards prayer and abiding as being the single most crucial element to a church’s flourishing, or lack of flourishing.

Please pray for the Regional Mission Project taking place July 26–August 1, as Shadow Mountain Community Church partners with our GCA Hispanic churches, FBC Gilroy Español, IB Emanuel, IB Laurel, IB La Fe, and IB Arthur Road in and around the Gilroy area. Pray that God prepares hearts in the community, blesses the outreach and Vacation Bible School ministries, and brings many children, youth, and adults to faith in Christ. Pray for effective evangelism, strong collaboration between churches, spiritual growth among volunteers, and lasting fruit that will continue long after the mission team returns home.

Great Commission Association 2026 Evangelism Workshop Registration Also: Date & Time: Saturday, Aug. 1st, 2026, 10 AM - 2 PM Location: First Baptist Church Gilroy 8455 Wren Ave, Gilroy, CA 95020 Contact: ADOM Chris Cole 408.748.3500 ext. 1009 chris.cole@gcasbc.org or CSBC Evangelism Ministry Assistant Sister Shanna (559) 229-9533 EXT. 251

Show Notes
Transcript

#22. On today’s episode, we finish up a great interview with Dr. Cathie Smith, who is the Great Commission Association Women in Ministry Ambassador. If you are following the news, this is a timely conversation for us, as the nation’s largest Protestant denomination, the SBC, grapples with the role of women in ministry. Today, we talk with Dr. Cathie about how pastors should seek to enlist qualified and gifted women to serve in leadership roles and invite them to speak into sermon topics, schedules, etc. To give them a voice at the decision-making table. We also discuss practical ways to entrust and release women into areas of ministry in the church that are Bible-honoring, people-encouraging, and church-building. I think you will find the conversation to be both very practical, but also encouraging and inspiring, because Dr. Cathie does a great job of pushing pastors to see the women of the church as an often tragically untapped reservoir for dynamism, health, and flourishing.

Seven Ways to Empower Women In the Church

1. Engage them. Engage them in discipleship and making disciples. See them, connect with them, open doors of opportunity for them as God allows.

2. Encourage their giftings.

3. Exhort God’s calling in their lives and give them opportunities to respond to what God is calling her to do – commission/send out

4. “Equip women for ministry and disciple-making. This includes education. Educate women in theology, hermeneutics, and other Bible teaching skills to help her to be able to adequately handle the word of God.

5. Establish ministry pathways for women – both for equipping and serving in her gifting. This will involve a cost in resources, personnel and energy.

6. Enlist qualified and gifted women to serve in leadership roles and invite them to speak into sermon topics, schedules, etc. Give them a voice at the decision-making table. Partnership not just permission.

7. Entrust and Release Women in your church – Champion/Co-Workers/Celebrate

WEBVTT

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All right. Rather than me preview today's episode, let's get our guest,

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Dr. Kathy Smith, to do it. Dr. Kathy?

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We view culture of church from what we see on Sundays.

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And so if people go to church and they don't see women visible anywhere,

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what do you think that that says to the rest of the culture?

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Women aren't important? We hide women or they're not good enough?

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I mean, all kinds of different things, but I never really thought about that.

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And so if we don't have women in visible positions, I think it communicates

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something to the rest of our culture that we don't intend to.

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And there's plenty of ways that women can be seen that aren't going to conflict

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with our way of viewing complementarianism and the specific roles that God has

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for us. There's plenty of ways that women can be seen in different ways.

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And the beautiful Redwoods. The Every Church Flourishing podcast is all about

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helping churches, leaders, and pastors find health, encouragement,

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practical advice, soul care, and resources that work together to build up your

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local fellowship and the broader kingdom of God.

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Join hosts, Pastor Chris Cole and Dr. Chase Thompson from the Great Commission

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Association, led by Dr. Mike Stewart, as they explore the frontiers of ministry

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and aim for the goal of making every church flourish.

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Hello, everybody, and welcome in to episode number 22 of the Every Church Flourishing Podcast.

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We are a ministry of the Great Commission Association of Churches in California.

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And on today's episode, we're finishing up a great interview with Dr.

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Kathy Smith, who is the Great Commission Association Women in Ministry Ambassador.

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And hey, if you're following the news, this is a timely conversation for us

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as the nation's largest Protestant denomination, the SBC grapples with the role of women in ministry.

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Today, we're going to talk with Dr. Kathy about how pastors should seek to enlist

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qualified and gifted women to serve in leadership roles and invite them to speak

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into sermon topics, schedules, etc.,

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To give them a voice at the decision-making table.

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And we're also going to discuss practical ways to entrust and release women

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into areas of the ministry in the church that are Bible-honoring,

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people-encouraging, and church-building.

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I think you're going to find the conversation to be both very practical,

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but also encouraging and inspiring because Dr.

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Kathy does a great job of pushing pastors to see the women of the church as

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an often tragically untapped reservoir for dynamism and health and flourishing.

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As you will hear, we're going to recap and finish with Dr. Smith's excellent

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list, Seven Biblical Ways to Empower Women in the Church.

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Before we get to any new questions, we do want to finish up that list because

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there was so much meat on the bone in the first five.

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We could barely stop ourselves from talking about it. So I'm eager to hear the next two.

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Yeah, Kathy, tell us, maybe it would be helpful for our audience that may have

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missed last week's episode to hear a recap of those amazing points.

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I'm still thinking about it. Right now I'm processing so much truth that you

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shared with us. So I wanna hear it again.

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What are some of the, you covered five critical areas already and you just mentioned

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two of them as we close the podcast. Yeah, so what are the seven ways that you've

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been talking to us about how we can empower and encourage women leaders in the church?

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Yes, thank you. The first one is to engage them, engage them in conversation

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and discipleship and discipleship opportunities.

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The second is to encourage their gifting and help them to identify their gifts.

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The third is exhort God's calling in their lives and give them opportunities

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to respond to what God is calling them to do.

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And the fourth is equip women for disciple making. And this can include both

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informal and formal training. We talked about GCTI opportunities as well as

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seminary gateway opportunities, but also informal opportunities in the church.

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And the fifth is to establish ministry pathways for women, ways that they can

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actually lead to a serving role in the church.

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And then the last two that we'll get into today is to enlist qualified and gifted

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women to serve in leadership roles, what that looks like.

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And entrusting and releasing women in and from your church.

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Well, maybe before we go any farther, unpack both of those last two a little

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bit to enlist them. What does that look like tangibly?

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Well, specifically, I think it means to invite them in to conversation.

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So we talked about in the last episode about how many,

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only 5% of women plan alongside their pastor and 83% of female leaders are volunteer,

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which often means they're not in staff meetings. They're not in planning meetings.

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So invite them into those spaces.

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Even women that may not have a specific role can be invited into those spaces.

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And one way that I heard of with a friend who is a pastor's wife,

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her husband is the pastor, and he invited her in, which I thought was just amazing.

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But he invited some other women as well to speak into sermon topics.

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I know we were joking earlier in that last episode about sports analogies,

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and I think that is common.

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With pastors, but some women aren't as athletic or as engaged in that.

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So obviously, you know, you want to do that sometimes because there is at least

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probably half the congregation that's men.

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Women can help you think of other illustrations that you can use in addition

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to sports illustrations or other things to kind of really hit home with women.

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And also like different scheduling things as well.

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When events are scheduled, is that a good time for women?

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A lot of events traditionally used to be scheduled during the day for women.

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That assumed that they could get child care or the church provided child care

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or they didn't work outside of the home. But now that doesn't work as well.

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And also, I found that women are traditionally the kind of gatekeepers of the schedule.

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So they kind of understand the rhythms of school.

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They know when certain events are, maybe when there's heavier testing times

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for children, when vacations are.

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And so if women are allowed to speak into the scheduling of the church,

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it kind of helps to alleviate the stress that families feel and also to say,

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you know what, the kids are doing this activity or the youth are doing this activity.

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If we add another activity, it's splitting our family apart.

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Is there a way that we could kind of unify these things and bring them all together?

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And also there are women that are very gifted in administrative things.

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And so you can find ways to bring them into leadership opportunities where they're

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speaking into that in a way that fits

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with your convictions and your church structure is very honoring to the woman, but also

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helps to bring to light things that we might have missed, like even segments

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of people that might not be present at church, special needs communities,

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but also maybe topics that aren't being addressed that women feel would be very important.

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It's a great way to bring women leaders into that role.

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Our commander-in-chief, Valley Baptist Church of Planning, and our next four

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officers in line are all ladies, and they don't let me anywhere near the calendar because they're

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I'm terrible at it. And I can't imagine a church not having ladies at least

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premierly involved in the scheduling of the church. That seems crazy to me.

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Yeah, and I would say to you, I think I became more conscious,

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Kathy, of what you're talking about, enlisting women.

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Like you mentioned the example of sermon topics or sermon illustrations.

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I don't remember which of the women in my church graciously,

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kindly, back I think around 2016 or so said to me, you know,

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you have like these message series.

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I typically would preach through a book of the Bible. And then I would have

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like these shorter sort of break series that might handle a topic or something.

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And I had done one on like great heroes of the faith, right?

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Just sort of a mini series of, you know, eight or nine messages about great heroes of faith.

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And one of the women in my church took courage, because it does take courage

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to say this to a pastor who maybe wasn't always listening well

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and thinking about this well, and came to me and said, you know,

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women, what about the great women of faith?

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When this sister said this, I remember who it was, to be honest,

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but I was so convicted. I was convicted.

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And I was like, oh my gosh, how dare I diminish the word of God?

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And so that coming Easter, we did like a 10-week series that we called Daughters

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of Eve, highlighting women, great women of faith in scripture.

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And I will tell you, it was interesting because I think it was not only one

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of the best received sermon series that I ever taught on by women, but I was like,

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But the men loved it.

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It was very interesting. And I think that there are places where pastors can

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invite women in to not only give that kind of input, but I know many pastors

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practice a time of giving

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content feedback, like, hey, how did this message go? How was it received?

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And I think it would be great to have not just men in the room,

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but to have women in the room, because we do often, perhaps whether through

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illustration or innuendo or through,

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we may miss some implications of what we said, or we just may miss something really important.

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God changed one of my convictions about preaching through a pastor's daughter

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who was a faithful member of one of my churches.

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And unfortunately, unfortunately, it took her getting to a place of deep frustration.

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So one Sunday after church, I saw her weeping.

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Now, in my pastoral ego, I thought, oh, surely the Holy Spirit has used my great

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and profound preaching to move this sister.

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And with great pastoral care, I wanted to come to her and say to her,

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Dear sister, how is the Spirit moving in your life, right?

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Okay, so with this very condescending, foolish attitude, I go to her,

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and she, with gentleness and humility and submission, said, Pastor,

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I'm trying to pay attention to your messages.

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I'm trying to understand the Word of God. I come here to be fed,

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but the way you organize information isn't native to me.

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And could you please at least get some sermon notes and some sermon slides put

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together? And I was brokenhearted.

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I had failed my sheep. And I just want to encourage, if you're a pastor and

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you're listening to this, what Kathy has just said is gold.

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We need to invite women into those critical conversation spaces so that we can

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grow up into the image of Jesus Christ and help them do the same in effective ways.

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And I think our sisters have much to share with us in those realities.

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And enlisting them deliberately is going to be so fruitful. That's just my encouragement.

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And I think the key is that it's both. It's both men and women,

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because we can easily take away, oh, well, we should only have women.

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And that's not what we're trying to get at either. It's both because it's both

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views that are important.

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We need illustrations and topics that really are relevant to men,

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but also to women, to both. And I think another

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thing that Katie Cole and some others have talked about this,

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but not just using women in negative ways.

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Like it's great that you did that conversation or I mean that series on women,

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in the Bible and that you dedicated a certain amount of time and that was good illustrations.

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But sometimes the illustrations that are used in services or sometimes things

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that women hear are only the negative stories of the women in the Bible.

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And so I was really thinking about that when I listened to that podcast with

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Katie Cole is like, we do need to be careful that we don't just tell the negative

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stories of the women in the Bible, but we also cast that positive vision.

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And also just the emotional intelligence that comes a lot of times from women,

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the relational IQ that women bring.

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Sometimes that's even why women are leaving because sometimes in sermons,

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it's unintentionally unrelational.

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And it's not like anyone means for that, but even to say, well,

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I'm not a good counselor or I don't know how to do this. I mean,

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it's one thing to be honest, but it's another thing to not like try to grow

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in skills that would be helpful for the church.

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And I think women maybe are sometimes are easier to see or easier to relate

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in some ways. And so asking them for input like you were talking about,

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Pastor Chris, how it comes across in a message. Women are really good at that as well.

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So those are all really important parts that we just don't ever marginalize

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one side or the other. And we don't want to go far to the other extreme where

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we marginalize men, but it's both.

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It's both men and women, brothers and sisters. So I think now we can go to the

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last point of the entrust and release women in and from your church.

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And so we've talked about the pathways, equipping, exhorting,

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calling out their gifts and including them.

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But then we have to entrust them that what God has given them,

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he will use for his honor and glory. And so that means we allow them.

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To step into those roles. We don't just talk about it or prepare them forever

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for those roles, but we actually entrust them to fulfill those roles and we release them to do that.

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I really was convicted about releasing and entrusting when one of our kids was learning to drive.

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And early on in our marriage, we decided my husband would be the one to teach

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the kids to drive because that is just definitely outside of my skill set.

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And one time though, I went with, as he was teaching one of them,

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and it's obvious when you teach someone to drive, they have to be in the driver's seat.

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But he was teaching from the passenger seat, but our child was in the driver's seat.

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And this child made some mistakes and fortunately nothing happened.

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My husband could only teach from the passenger seat. He couldn't step on the

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brake because we don't have one of those cars like the driver ed cars have.

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He could only do so much, but he was able to walk this child through it and

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to help the child learn through the experience.

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And I think that in leadership, sometimes we want to do all this teaching.

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We want to fill information. We want to give all these ideas,

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but then we want to stay in the driver's seat.

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And we can easily do that in the church. And we never let the person get in the driver's seat.

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And we don't lead them in the beginning. We stay in the passenger seat,

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encouraging them, helping them when they make mistakes.

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We don't cancel them like our culture does just because they made a simple mistake.

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We never learn if we don't make mistakes. And really that has changed how I view equipping.

00:16:05.593 --> 00:16:10.413
And that also through Gateway Seminary has a program where you have a field

00:16:10.413 --> 00:16:11.793
mentor, every student does.

00:16:11.793 --> 00:16:15.783
And I was able to have some students that I was able to mentor.

00:16:15.783 --> 00:16:20.613
And they actually say, we need to give our students a chance to fail because

00:16:20.613 --> 00:16:24.133
of everything they can do, then we haven't taught them anything.

00:16:24.593 --> 00:16:29.653
But we allow them, not setting them up for failure, but allowing them to spread

00:16:29.653 --> 00:16:33.033
their wings with the shielding of us around them.

00:16:33.033 --> 00:16:38.863
And I think that's how a pastor can also help and entrust and equip women and

00:16:38.863 --> 00:16:43.423
release them, but actually let them make some of those hard choices sometimes too.

00:16:44.293 --> 00:16:51.343
And I think entrusting women with meaningful ministry, not simply ministry that

00:16:51.343 --> 00:16:56.490
we've decided is secondary, entrusting them with meaningful ministry. And

00:16:56.851 --> 00:17:00.107
And I'm thinking of the example of the Apostle Paul here.

00:17:00.340 --> 00:17:06.422
And Romans 16 is deeply instructive, I think, here. First off,

00:17:06.422 --> 00:17:08.282
we start off with Romans 16.1.

00:17:08.520 --> 00:17:12.962
Paul has entrusted this letter to a female courier.

00:17:13.066 --> 00:17:17.862
There were certainly many other couriers Paul could have entrusted this to.

00:17:17.862 --> 00:17:22.944
But he's entrusted that majestic book of Romans to Phoebe.

00:17:23.153 --> 00:17:25.632
And he has entrusted her to communicate this.

00:17:26.288 --> 00:17:30.662
And historically, the person that is bringing this letter, she's not simply

00:17:30.662 --> 00:17:33.811
like a mailman. She's not dropping it off, by the way.

00:17:33.979 --> 00:17:39.030
It is the courier, historically, who would read this text.

00:17:39.245 --> 00:17:47.255
So Paul is entrusting this majestic defense of the gospel and its implications to Phoebe.

00:17:47.499 --> 00:17:51.322
And with great likelihood that she was the one who was going to present it to

00:17:51.322 --> 00:17:54.202
the church, which is something maybe shocking.

00:17:54.202 --> 00:17:59.722
And then he immediately, he goes on and he describes her not only as a deaconess,

00:17:59.722 --> 00:18:06.365
that's the Greek word that he uses there of the church at Sincre, but he also calls her

00:18:06.992 --> 00:18:09.222
What some Bibles call a patron.

00:18:09.460 --> 00:18:11.972
Now, it's an interesting word. The word is prostatis, which,

00:18:11.972 --> 00:18:14.732
by the way, means ruler or benefactor.

00:18:15.132 --> 00:18:19.820
She's not a person of insignificance. She has been, whatever that role looked

00:18:19.942 --> 00:18:27.581
like, she has been entrusted with significant ministry, both in her home church.

00:18:27.964 --> 00:18:33.803
And with this message, right? And then he goes on to talk about in Romans 16,

00:18:33.803 --> 00:18:37.483
3, he right away jumps into just talking about Prisca, you know,

00:18:37.483 --> 00:18:39.092
the diminutive of Priscilla.

00:18:39.341 --> 00:18:45.204
And he says, she is a co-worker, a sunergos in Christ.

00:18:45.425 --> 00:18:49.860
Now that does not sound like he's diminishing her in any way, right?

00:18:50.174 --> 00:18:54.760
Whatever the role looks like, he sees her as a co-worker, someone who's been

00:18:55.080 --> 00:18:58.347
entrusted with this reality, right?

00:18:58.883 --> 00:19:03.183
And of course, it goes on there. But I just think it's interesting.

00:19:03.183 --> 00:19:08.559
He says that, you know, Prisca has risked her life for the gospel.

00:19:08.755 --> 00:19:12.877
And he goes on to say, and not only do I give thanks for her,

00:19:13.063 --> 00:19:16.208
but all the churches give thanks for her.

00:19:16.382 --> 00:19:22.313
And what would it look like for us to empower and encourage women into whatever

00:19:22.313 --> 00:19:26.743
those roles look like where we could say, these are our co-workers, and

00:19:27.383 --> 00:19:34.783
These have been entrusted with meaningful ministry, and these are people for whom we give thanks.

00:19:35.243 --> 00:19:41.113
All of the church gives thanks in substantive and meaningful ways.

00:19:41.113 --> 00:19:44.843
And by the way, if you just keep reading Romans 16, he says,

00:19:44.843 --> 00:19:49.075
you know, greet Mary, and she has worked hard for you.

00:19:49.314 --> 00:19:55.653
Over and over again, And Paul is going out of his way to affirm and entrust

00:19:55.653 --> 00:20:01.475
women leaders in significant ways. And just this one example, this one church.

00:20:01.725 --> 00:20:09.422
And so, yes and amen. And I think we've got to do this work of entrusting earnestly and intentionally.

00:20:09.660 --> 00:20:13.283
And pastors need to do the hard work of thinking through what does it mean to

00:20:13.283 --> 00:20:16.660
entrust meaningful work, substantive

00:20:16.845 --> 00:20:22.140
work to women and looking at ways to empower and encourage them.

00:20:22.756 --> 00:20:27.752
Yeah, so let's move from the realm of kind of theory and exhortation,

00:20:27.752 --> 00:20:31.482
and let's get a little more nuts and bolts about this. And I have a question

00:20:31.482 --> 00:20:35.051
for you and I, Pastor Christopher, but let's start with Kathy.

00:20:35.283 --> 00:20:39.979
What would you say to a female listener in the church today who is essentially,

00:20:40.171 --> 00:20:45.882
she wants to participate, but she doesn't know how to go about it.

00:20:45.882 --> 00:20:50.032
She just comes to the church. Maybe she is a nursery worker or works with the

00:20:50.032 --> 00:20:54.950
children, but she has something deeper in her heart. She desperately wants to minister.

00:20:55.632 --> 00:20:56.952
What would you say to her?

00:20:57.692 --> 00:21:01.429
How practically should she approach that?

00:21:01.678 --> 00:21:07.036
Well, first of all, I think it's important to go back to the great commandments,

00:21:07.286 --> 00:21:11.256
the one of the first great commandment of love God and love people,

00:21:11.506 --> 00:21:15.162
and then the great commission about going and making disciples.

00:21:15.162 --> 00:21:20.992
And really leaning in to what that looks like and leaning into the Father because

00:21:20.992 --> 00:21:23.543
I think we have to get our posture right

00:21:23.781 --> 00:21:31.212
before we serve because we are in a culture that tends to push things to extremes.

00:21:31.212 --> 00:21:35.482
And so we want to make sure that our hearts are in the right place,

00:21:35.482 --> 00:21:37.722
that we are seeking to serve with

00:21:37.722 --> 00:21:42.352
the right motives and also that we are approaching things respectfully.

00:21:42.352 --> 00:21:46.712
And so if we're not loving God and loving people first, then it's going to be

00:21:46.712 --> 00:21:51.232
really hard to extend that in the church. And if we're not understanding the

00:21:51.232 --> 00:21:55.335
Great Commission of making disciples, we're not engaged in that, it's going to be hard.

00:21:55.985 --> 00:22:00.349
Take that to another level. And then when we do that, we check our hearts and

00:22:00.349 --> 00:22:02.309
we check it against the scripture.

00:22:02.309 --> 00:22:08.269
Then we respectfully, I think, ask for ways that we could serve and even share

00:22:08.269 --> 00:22:12.269
and not to be afraid to share where we feel that we're gifted.

00:22:12.269 --> 00:22:17.206
I think sometimes we assume that's boasting, but there's a confidence in Christ

00:22:17.374 --> 00:22:20.659
for giving us the gifts that he has and we should use them.

00:22:20.659 --> 00:22:24.419
So we shouldn't be ashamed to mention what we think that our gifts are.

00:22:24.419 --> 00:22:28.079
And if they truly are our gifts, other people are going to see that as well

00:22:28.079 --> 00:22:31.529
and affirm that. And so I think sometimes we have to take that first step to

00:22:31.529 --> 00:22:34.197
approach our church leadership and

00:22:34.587 --> 00:22:39.045
humbly and respectfully first before the Lord and then our leadership present

00:22:39.382 --> 00:22:44.761
our desires and seeking ways that we can serve and that there is definitely a place.

00:22:44.761 --> 00:22:49.441
I think that is just another encouragement. There is a place to serve.

00:22:49.441 --> 00:22:54.381
There is a place to be a part of building up the kingdom and to not give up

00:22:54.381 --> 00:22:58.581
because sometimes it takes a little practice from the church learning what that

00:22:58.581 --> 00:23:03.156
looks like, but also from us learning how to exhibit and use our gifting.

00:23:03.371 --> 00:23:08.941
Yeah, I totally agree with that. Luke 18, powerful, humble persistence,

00:23:08.941 --> 00:23:11.871
I think is the counsel you are suggesting.

00:23:11.871 --> 00:23:15.131
Don't give up and keep going and do it with humility.

00:23:15.131 --> 00:23:21.151
So Pastor Christopher, what would we say to pastors who are on the other side

00:23:21.151 --> 00:23:27.181
of this issue, wondering how to navigate this area, how to welcome in

00:23:27.481 --> 00:23:30.481
and empower and equip and encourage

00:23:31.181 --> 00:23:36.290
ladies to a greater level of ministry and impact in the church?

00:23:36.482 --> 00:23:40.281
I think my answer always to every one of these questions is always going to

00:23:40.281 --> 00:23:44.550
be some version of Mark 115, repent and believe the good news.

00:23:44.881 --> 00:23:51.058
And I mean that earnestly. I think pastors need to recognize that we approach

00:23:51.371 --> 00:23:58.151
our ministry context and to some measure our scriptural interpretation all of

00:23:58.151 --> 00:24:04.119
us with various lenses and where we have been colored more by

00:24:04.404 --> 00:24:09.557
traditionalized culture than scripture itself. We need to repent.

00:24:10.027 --> 00:24:13.946
We need to see women the way that God sees women.

00:24:14.120 --> 00:24:21.986
And where we have adopted attitudes or even humor that is diminishing or devaluing

00:24:22.253 --> 00:24:26.583
to women, where we have accepted that or tolerated the

00:24:26.883 --> 00:24:31.204
diminishment of women, I think there's only one righteous response.

00:24:31.459 --> 00:24:39.401
It's repentance. Or we can't claim to follow Jesus. We can't claim to love our sisters as ourselves.

00:24:39.639 --> 00:24:41.653
If what we really mean is

00:24:41.978 --> 00:24:47.063
We love the men in our church. So I think it starts with repentance and believing

00:24:47.359 --> 00:24:54.182
the gospel that in Christ Jesus, while this does not negate all gender differentiation

00:24:54.182 --> 00:24:58.482
or role differentiation, that in Christ Jesus, there really is

00:24:58.731 --> 00:25:02.572
neither slave nor free, male nor female, right?

00:25:02.572 --> 00:25:05.683
As Paul writes to the Galatian church. So if we believe that,

00:25:05.806 --> 00:25:11.912
then we need to start with repentance because behavior is always an overflow of the human heart.

00:25:12.128 --> 00:25:17.132
Always. So if we want to change our behavior, we start by examining what are

00:25:17.132 --> 00:25:19.000
my actual beliefs about women?

00:25:19.187 --> 00:25:21.740
What do I believe about women and their role?

00:25:22.059 --> 00:25:27.772
What do I believe about their value? What do I believe about their benefit in

00:25:27.772 --> 00:25:33.742
the church? We take the practical principles that Kathy has so kindly and wisely

00:25:33.742 --> 00:25:36.630
given to us, and we use those as a mirror.

00:25:36.869 --> 00:25:40.232
So that would be my first counsel is repent and ask yourself,

00:25:40.232 --> 00:25:42.382
where are you not believing the good news of Jesus?

00:25:42.615 --> 00:25:45.712
And then to say, now, what am I going to do?

00:25:46.212 --> 00:25:50.592
And maybe you just start with one of the wonderful principles that Kathy shared.

00:25:50.864 --> 00:25:55.531
Maybe you realize I'm looking past women in my church. I'm overlooking them.

00:25:55.770 --> 00:25:59.693
So I need to start with just engaging, having those intentional conversations.

00:25:59.937 --> 00:26:02.781
Get practical. Set yourself a real tangible goal.

00:26:03.024 --> 00:26:07.782
I will have a conversation with a female leader, and I will ask her a meaningful

00:26:07.782 --> 00:26:10.797
question and invite her into a conversation.

00:26:10.959 --> 00:26:15.172
Maybe it's farther down that list and you're looking for something like what

00:26:15.172 --> 00:26:18.322
we were talking about earlier where you're gonna say, hey, I have a reflection

00:26:18.322 --> 00:26:20.672
group on my messages or our elders'

00:26:20.672 --> 00:26:24.009
messages and we're gonna include women intentionally into that room.

00:26:24.241 --> 00:26:28.332
And we're gonna ask them to share honestly and openly about where the message

00:26:28.332 --> 00:26:33.032
may be emotionally missed them or where the illustration just doesn't make sense.

00:26:33.552 --> 00:26:37.865
We're gonna practice humility because God gives grace to the humble, right?

00:26:38.028 --> 00:26:43.014
And then we're gonna find someone in our church this year to empower us.

00:26:43.327 --> 00:26:48.400
So many pastors I know, I will tell you, I spend a lot of time in conversations with pastors.

00:26:48.650 --> 00:26:56.051
And it's interesting to me how many men say to me they can't find any leaders in their church.

00:26:56.580 --> 00:27:02.308
It's a constant mantra to me. And I love my brothers and I go to visit their church.

00:27:02.552 --> 00:27:07.608
And very often I can identify a number of male potential leaders,

00:27:07.852 --> 00:27:12.362
but I'm usually looking around and seeing you've got a dozen women leaders in

00:27:12.362 --> 00:27:13.866
here. What do you mean you don't have leaders?

00:27:14.075 --> 00:27:17.070
Now, pastor the flock that God has placed you.

00:27:17.314 --> 00:27:21.712
That's what Peter says, 1 Peter chapter 5. So if God's given you a congregation

00:27:21.712 --> 00:27:27.942
with 12 women leaders and a couple of weak male leaders, yeah, develop them in.

00:27:27.942 --> 00:27:32.572
You know, develop them into those elder roles, the senior pastor roles or the

00:27:32.572 --> 00:27:34.288
potential church planter roles.

00:27:34.537 --> 00:27:40.040
But if you're failing to shepherd the flock that God has given you as a pastor,

00:27:40.290 --> 00:27:42.049
that's on you. That's a sin.

00:27:42.502 --> 00:27:47.162
You are failing to obey the word of God, to shepherd the flock that God has

00:27:47.162 --> 00:27:52.869
placed you amongst. And so, and I'm preaching to myself here, okay, when I say this.

00:27:53.113 --> 00:27:58.502
So I realize there's both that practical reality, but I also don't want us to

00:27:58.502 --> 00:28:00.467
miss the spiritual reality

00:28:01.202 --> 00:28:07.891
Of dealing with those things and not assuming, as we so often want to,

00:28:08.112 --> 00:28:11.038
that these things are not true.

00:28:11.154 --> 00:28:14.724
That the things that are in the world, the misogyny in the world, the

00:28:15.455 --> 00:28:21.365
the patriarchal systems in the world have not crept their way into the culture

00:28:21.365 --> 00:28:27.855
of the church under the guise of biblicism or under the guise of being biblically faithful.

00:28:27.855 --> 00:28:33.145
We need to grapple with that earnestly and then take these practical lists and

00:28:33.145 --> 00:28:37.410
start engaging on them and expand and explore more.

00:28:37.584 --> 00:28:42.983
So those are just, to me, some root level realities. What say you, Pastor Chase?

00:28:43.203 --> 00:28:47.935
It's a great question. And I'm going to give a very Baptist answer to that question

00:28:47.935 --> 00:28:49.432
that begins with Scripture.

00:28:49.647 --> 00:28:55.195
Because I think if our foundational thinking is grounded in Scripture,

00:28:55.495 --> 00:28:58.845
if we know who we are and we know what we're called to, we'll know how to act.

00:28:58.845 --> 00:29:04.325
So I would say this, again, as a complementarian, you can't over-focus on 1

00:29:04.325 --> 00:29:09.876
Timothy 2 and 1 Corinthians 14 and Ephesians 5 and all of those other keystone

00:29:10.038 --> 00:29:14.055
complementarian passages, which are the Word of God and are true.

00:29:14.375 --> 00:29:18.549
But you also need to meditate. If you're a pastor in particular,

00:29:18.833 --> 00:29:24.005
you need to meditate on what we've talked about today, Romans 16.

00:29:24.975 --> 00:29:29.815
So complementarians really focus on, I'm caricaturing, and I don't want to be

00:29:29.815 --> 00:29:32.811
unfair. I think I can caricature my own tribe.

00:29:33.061 --> 00:29:39.226
Sometimes we tend to focus on Ephesians 5.22, maybe minimize a little bit Ephesians 5.25.

00:29:39.534 --> 00:29:42.065
Husbands love your wife as Christ loved the church.

00:29:42.815 --> 00:29:47.855
There's a danger there. And passages like Luke 8, and I want to read Luke 8 really quick.

00:29:48.375 --> 00:29:53.415
Luke 8, verse 8, Jesus was traveling from one town and village to another,

00:29:53.415 --> 00:29:58.107
preaching and telling the good news of the kingdom of God. The 12 were with him.

00:29:58.403 --> 00:30:02.229
And that's how we normally picture it. Jesus and the 12,

00:30:02.567 --> 00:30:05.829
dudes traveling around the countryside doing ministry.

00:30:06.137 --> 00:30:12.563
But Luke is going to expand our view a little bit of what the Jesus team really looks like.

00:30:12.748 --> 00:30:18.371