Episode 22: Empowering, Equipping, and Encouraging Women in Ministry in Southern Baptist Churches. SBC Women in Ministry. Complementarian Ministry

0:00 All right. Rather than me preview today's episode, let's get our guest, Dr. Kathy Smith, to do it. Dr. Kathy? We view culture of church from what we see on Sundays. And so if people go to church and they don't see women visible anywhere, what do you think that that says to the rest of the culture? Women aren't important? We hide women or they're not good enough? I mean, all kinds of different things, but I never really thought about that. And so if we don't have women in visible positions, I think it communicates something to the rest of our culture that we don't intend to. And there's plenty of ways that women can be seen that aren't going to conflict with our way of viewing complementarianism and the specific roles that God has for us. There's plenty of ways that women can be seen in different ways.

0:59 And the beautiful Redwoods. The Every Church Flourishing podcast is all about helping churches, leaders, and pastors find health, encouragement, practical advice, soul care, and resources that work together to build up your local fellowship and the broader kingdom of God. Join hosts, Pastor Chris Cole and Dr. Chase Thompson from the Great Commission Association, led by Dr. Mike Stewart, as they explore the frontiers of ministry and aim for the goal of making every church flourish. Hello, everybody, and welcome in to episode number 22 of the Every Church Flourishing Podcast. We are a ministry of the Great Commission Association of Churches in California. And on today's episode, we're finishing up a great interview with Dr.

1:42 Kathy Smith, who is the Great Commission Association Women in Ministry Ambassador. And hey, if you're following the news, this is a timely conversation for us as the nation's largest Protestant denomination, the SBC grapples with the role of women in ministry. Today, we're going to talk with Dr. Kathy about how pastors should seek to enlist qualified and gifted women to serve in leadership roles and invite them to speak into sermon topics, schedules, etc., To give them a voice at the decision-making table. And we're also going to discuss practical ways to entrust and release women into areas of the ministry in the church that are Bible-honoring, people-encouraging, and church-building.

2:30 I think you're going to find the conversation to be both very practical, but also encouraging and inspiring because Dr. Kathy does a great job of pushing pastors to see the women of the church as an often tragically untapped reservoir for dynamism and health and flourishing. As you will hear, we're going to recap and finish with Dr. Smith's excellent list, Seven Biblical Ways to Empower Women in the Church. Before we get to any new questions, we do want to finish up that list because there was so much meat on the bone in the first five. We could barely stop ourselves from talking about it. So I'm eager to hear the next two.

3:12 Yeah, Kathy, tell us, maybe it would be helpful for our audience that may have missed last week's episode to hear a recap of those amazing points. I'm still thinking about it. Right now I'm processing so much truth that you shared with us. So I wanna hear it again. What are some of the, you covered five critical areas already and you just mentioned two of them as we close the podcast. Yeah, so what are the seven ways that you've been talking to us about how we can empower and encourage women leaders in the church? Yes, thank you. The first one is to engage them, engage them in conversation and discipleship and discipleship opportunities. The second is to encourage their gifting and help them to identify their gifts.

3:56 The third is exhort God's calling in their lives and give them opportunities to respond to what God is calling them to do. And the fourth is equip women for disciple making. And this can include both informal and formal training. We talked about GCTI opportunities as well as seminary gateway opportunities, but also informal opportunities in the church. And the fifth is to establish ministry pathways for women, ways that they can actually lead to a serving role in the church. And then the last two that we'll get into today is to enlist qualified and gifted women to serve in leadership roles, what that looks like. And entrusting and releasing women in and from your church.

4:39 Well, maybe before we go any farther, unpack both of those last two a little bit to enlist them. What does that look like tangibly? Well, specifically, I think it means to invite them in to conversation. So we talked about in the last episode about how many, only 5% of women plan alongside their pastor and 83% of female leaders are volunteer, which often means they're not in staff meetings. They're not in planning meetings. So invite them into those spaces. Even women that may not have a specific role can be invited into those spaces. And one way that I heard of with a friend who is a pastor's wife, her husband is the pastor, and he invited her in, which I thought was just amazing.

5:27 But he invited some other women as well to speak into sermon topics. I know we were joking earlier in that last episode about sports analogies, and I think that is common. With pastors, but some women aren't as athletic or as engaged in that. So obviously, you know, you want to do that sometimes because there is at least probably half the congregation that's men. Women can help you think of other illustrations that you can use in addition to sports illustrations or other things to kind of really hit home with women. And also like different scheduling things as well. When events are scheduled, is that a good time for women?

6:10 A lot of events traditionally used to be scheduled during the day for women. That assumed that they could get child care or the church provided child care or they didn't work outside of the home. But now that doesn't work as well. And also, I found that women are traditionally the kind of gatekeepers of the schedule. So they kind of understand the rhythms of school. They know when certain events are, maybe when there's heavier testing times for children, when vacations are. And so if women are allowed to speak into the scheduling of the church, it kind of helps to alleviate the stress that families feel and also to say, you know what, the kids are doing this activity or the youth are doing this activity.

6:52 If we add another activity, it's splitting our family apart. Is there a way that we could kind of unify these things and bring them all together? And also there are women that are very gifted in administrative things. And so you can find ways to bring them into leadership opportunities where they're speaking into that in a way that fits with your convictions and your church structure is very honoring to the woman, but also helps to bring to light things that we might have missed, like even segments of people that might not be present at church, special needs communities, but also maybe topics that aren't being addressed that women feel would be very important.

7:33 It's a great way to bring women leaders into that role. Our commander-in-chief, Valley Baptist Church of Planning, and our next four officers in line are all ladies, and they don't let me anywhere near the calendar because they're I'm terrible at it. And I can't imagine a church not having ladies at least premierly involved in the scheduling of the church. That seems crazy to me. Yeah, and I would say to you, I think I became more conscious, Kathy, of what you're talking about, enlisting women. Like you mentioned the example of sermon topics or sermon illustrations. I don't remember which of the women in my church graciously, kindly, back I think around 2016 or so said to me, you know, you have like these message series.

8:25 I typically would preach through a book of the Bible. And then I would have like these shorter sort of break series that might handle a topic or something. And I had done one on like great heroes of the faith, right? Just sort of a mini series of, you know, eight or nine messages about great heroes of faith. And one of the women in my church took courage, because it does take courage to say this to a pastor who maybe wasn't always listening well and thinking about this well, and came to me and said, you know, women, what about the great women of faith? When this sister said this, I remember who it was, to be honest, but I was so convicted. I was convicted. And I was like, oh my gosh, how dare I diminish the word of God?

9:11 And so that coming Easter, we did like a 10-week series that we called Daughters of Eve, highlighting women, great women of faith in scripture. And I will tell you, it was interesting because I think it was not only one of the best received sermon series that I ever taught on by women, but I was like, But the men loved it. It was very interesting. And I think that there are places where pastors can invite women in to not only give that kind of input, but I know many pastors practice a time of giving content feedback, like, hey, how did this message go? How was it received?

9:56 And I think it would be great to have not just men in the room, but to have women in the room, because we do often, perhaps whether through illustration or innuendo or through, we may miss some implications of what we said, or we just may miss something really important. God changed one of my convictions about preaching through a pastor's daughter who was a faithful member of one of my churches. And unfortunately, unfortunately, it took her getting to a place of deep frustration. So one Sunday after church, I saw her weeping. Now, in my pastoral ego, I thought, oh, surely the Holy Spirit has used my great and profound preaching to move this sister.

10:43 And with great pastoral care, I wanted to come to her and say to her, Dear sister, how is the Spirit moving in your life, right? Okay, so with this very condescending, foolish attitude, I go to her, and she, with gentleness and humility and submission, said, Pastor, I'm trying to pay attention to your messages. I'm trying to understand the Word of God. I come here to be fed, but the way you organize information isn't native to me. And could you please at least get some sermon notes and some sermon slides put together? And I was brokenhearted.

11:27 I had failed my sheep. And I just want to encourage, if you're a pastor and you're listening to this, what Kathy has just said is gold. We need to invite women into those critical conversation spaces so that we can grow up into the image of Jesus Christ and help them do the same in effective ways. And I think our sisters have much to share with us in those realities. And enlisting them deliberately is going to be so fruitful. That's just my encouragement. And I think the key is that it's both. It's both men and women, because we can easily take away, oh, well, we should only have women.

12:09 And that's not what we're trying to get at either. It's both because it's both views that are important. We need illustrations and topics that really are relevant to men, but also to women, to both. And I think another thing that Katie Cole and some others have talked about this, but not just using women in negative ways. Like it's great that you did that conversation or I mean that series on women, in the Bible and that you dedicated a certain amount of time and that was good illustrations. But sometimes the illustrations that are used in services or sometimes things that women hear are only the negative stories of the women in the Bible.

12:52 And so I was really thinking about that when I listened to that podcast with Katie Cole is like, we do need to be careful that we don't just tell the negative stories of the women in the Bible, but we also cast that positive vision. And also just the emotional intelligence that comes a lot of times from women, the relational IQ that women bring. Sometimes that's even why women are leaving because sometimes in sermons, it's unintentionally unrelational. And it's not like anyone means for that, but even to say, well, I'm not a good counselor or I don't know how to do this. I mean, it's one thing to be honest, but it's another thing to not like try to grow in skills that would be helpful for the church.

13:36 And I think women maybe are sometimes are easier to see or easier to relate in some ways. And so asking them for input like you were talking about, Pastor Chris, how it comes across in a message. Women are really good at that as well. So those are all really important parts that we just don't ever marginalize one side or the other. And we don't want to go far to the other extreme where we marginalize men, but it's both. It's both men and women, brothers and sisters. So I think now we can go to the last point of the entrust and release women in and from your church. And so we've talked about the pathways, equipping, exhorting, calling out their gifts and including them.

14:19 But then we have to entrust them that what God has given them, he will use for his honor and glory. And so that means we allow them. To step into those roles. We don't just talk about it or prepare them forever for those roles, but we actually entrust them to fulfill those roles and we release them to do that. I really was convicted about releasing and entrusting when one of our kids was learning to drive. And early on in our marriage, we decided my husband would be the one to teach the kids to drive because that is just definitely outside of my skill set. And one time though, I went with, as he was teaching one of them, and it's obvious when you teach someone to drive, they have to be in the driver's seat.

15:06 But he was teaching from the passenger seat, but our child was in the driver's seat. And this child made some mistakes and fortunately nothing happened. My husband could only teach from the passenger seat. He couldn't step on the brake because we don't have one of those cars like the driver ed cars have. He could only do so much, but he was able to walk this child through it and to help the child learn through the experience. And I think that in leadership, sometimes we want to do all this teaching. We want to fill information. We want to give all these ideas, but then we want to stay in the driver's seat. And we can easily do that in the church. And we never let the person get in the driver's seat.

15:47 And we don't lead them in the beginning. We stay in the passenger seat, encouraging them, helping them when they make mistakes. We don't cancel them like our culture does just because they made a simple mistake. We never learn if we don't make mistakes. And really that has changed how I view equipping. And that also through Gateway Seminary has a program where you have a field mentor, every student does. And I was able to have some students that I was able to mentor. And they actually say, we need to give our students a chance to fail because of everything they can do, then we haven't taught them anything. But we allow them, not setting them up for failure, but allowing them to spread their wings with the shielding of us around them.

16:33 And I think that's how a pastor can also help and entrust and equip women and release them, but actually let them make some of those hard choices sometimes too. And I think entrusting women with meaningful ministry, not simply ministry that we've decided is secondary, entrusting them with meaningful ministry. And And I'm thinking of the example of the Apostle Paul here. And Romans 16 is deeply instructive, I think, here. First off, we start off with Romans 16.1. Paul has entrusted this letter to a female courier.

17:13 There were certainly many other couriers Paul could have entrusted this to. But he's entrusted that majestic book of Romans to Phoebe. And he has entrusted her to communicate this. And historically, the person that is bringing this letter, she's not simply like a mailman. She's not dropping it off, by the way. It is the courier, historically, who would read this text. So Paul is entrusting this majestic defense of the gospel and its implications to Phoebe. And with great likelihood that she was the one who was going to present it to the church, which is something maybe shocking.

17:54 And then he immediately, he goes on and he describes her not only as a deaconess, that's the Greek word that he uses there of the church at Sincre, but he also calls her What some Bibles call a patron. Now, it's an interesting word. The word is prostatis, which, by the way, means ruler or benefactor. She's not a person of insignificance. She has been, whatever that role looked like, she has been entrusted with significant ministry, both in her home church. And with this message, right? And then he goes on to talk about in Romans 16, 3, he right away jumps into just talking about Prisca, you know, the diminutive of Priscilla.

18:39 And he says, she is a co-worker, a sunergos in Christ. Now that does not sound like he's diminishing her in any way, right? Whatever the role looks like, he sees her as a co-worker, someone who's been entrusted with this reality, right? And of course, it goes on there. But I just think it's interesting. He says that, you know, Prisca has risked her life for the gospel. And he goes on to say, and not only do I give thanks for her, but all the churches give thanks for her. And what would it look like for us to empower and encourage women into whatever those roles look like where we could say, these are our co-workers, and These have been entrusted with meaningful ministry, and these are people for whom we give thanks.

19:35 All of the church gives thanks in substantive and meaningful ways. And by the way, if you just keep reading Romans 16, he says, you know, greet Mary, and she has worked hard for you. Over and over again, And Paul is going out of his way to affirm and entrust women leaders in significant ways. And just this one example, this one church. And so, yes and amen. And I think we've got to do this work of entrusting earnestly and intentionally. And pastors need to do the hard work of thinking through what does it mean to entrust meaningful work, substantive work to women and looking at ways to empower and encourage them.

20:22 Yeah, so let's move from the realm of kind of theory and exhortation, and let's get a little more nuts and bolts about this. And I have a question for you and I, Pastor Christopher, but let's start with Kathy. What would you say to a female listener in the church today who is essentially, she wants to participate, but she doesn't know how to go about it. She just comes to the church. Maybe she is a nursery worker or works with the children, but she has something deeper in her heart. She desperately wants to minister. What would you say to her? How practically should she approach that? Well, first of all, I think it's important to go back to the great commandments, the one of the first great commandment of love God and love people, and then the great commission about going and making disciples.

21:15 And really leaning in to what that looks like and leaning into the Father because I think we have to get our posture right before we serve because we are in a culture that tends to push things to extremes. And so we want to make sure that our hearts are in the right place, that we are seeking to serve with the right motives and also that we are approaching things respectfully. And so if we're not loving God and loving people first, then it's going to be really hard to extend that in the church. And if we're not understanding the Great Commission of making disciples, we're not engaged in that, it's going to be hard.

21:55 Take that to another level. And then when we do that, we check our hearts and we check it against the scripture. Then we respectfully, I think, ask for ways that we could serve and even share and not to be afraid to share where we feel that we're gifted. I think sometimes we assume that's boasting, but there's a confidence in Christ for giving us the gifts that he has and we should use them. So we shouldn't be ashamed to mention what we think that our gifts are. And if they truly are our gifts, other people are going to see that as well and affirm that. And so I think sometimes we have to take that first step to approach our church leadership and humbly and respectfully first before the Lord and then our leadership present our desires and seeking ways that we can serve and that there is definitely a place.

22:44 I think that is just another encouragement. There is a place to serve. There is a place to be a part of building up the kingdom and to not give up because sometimes it takes a little practice from the church learning what that looks like, but also from us learning how to exhibit and use our gifting. Yeah, I totally agree with that. Luke 18, powerful, humble persistence, I think is the counsel you are suggesting. Don't give up and keep going and do it with humility. So Pastor Christopher, what would we say to pastors who are on the other side of this issue, wondering how to navigate this area, how to welcome in and empower and equip and encourage ladies to a greater level of ministry and impact in the church?

23:36 I think my answer always to every one of these questions is always going to be some version of Mark 115, repent and believe the good news. And I mean that earnestly. I think pastors need to recognize that we approach our ministry context and to some measure our scriptural interpretation all of us with various lenses and where we have been colored more by traditionalized culture than scripture itself. We need to repent. We need to see women the way that God sees women. And where we have adopted attitudes or even humor that is diminishing or devaluing to women, where we have accepted that or tolerated the diminishment of women, I think there's only one righteous response.

24:31 It's repentance. Or we can't claim to follow Jesus. We can't claim to love our sisters as ourselves. If what we really mean is We love the men in our church. So I think it starts with repentance and believing the gospel that in Christ Jesus, while this does not negate all gender differentiation or role differentiation, that in Christ Jesus, there really is neither slave nor free, male nor female, right? As Paul writes to the Galatian church. So if we believe that, then we need to start with repentance because behavior is always an overflow of the human heart.

25:12 Always. So if we want to change our behavior, we start by examining what are my actual beliefs about women? What do I believe about women and their role? What do I believe about their value? What do I believe about their benefit in the church? We take the practical principles that Kathy has so kindly and wisely given to us, and we use those as a mirror. So that would be my first counsel is repent and ask yourself, where are you not believing the good news of Jesus? And then to say, now, what am I going to do? And maybe you just start with one of the wonderful principles that Kathy shared. Maybe you realize I'm looking past women in my church. I'm overlooking them.

25:55 So I need to start with just engaging, having those intentional conversations. Get practical. Set yourself a real tangible goal. I will have a conversation with a female leader, and I will ask her a meaningful question and invite her into a conversation. Maybe it's farther down that list and you're looking for something like what we were talking about earlier where you're gonna say, hey, I have a reflection group on my messages or our elders' messages and we're gonna include women intentionally into that room. And we're gonna ask them to share honestly and openly about where the message may be emotionally missed them or where the illustration just doesn't make sense. We're gonna practice humility because God gives grace to the humble, right?

26:38 And then we're gonna find someone in our church this year to empower us. So many pastors I know, I will tell you, I spend a lot of time in conversations with pastors. And it's interesting to me how many men say to me they can't find any leaders in their church. It's a constant mantra to me. And I love my brothers and I go to visit their church. And very often I can identify a number of male potential leaders, but I'm usually looking around and seeing you've got a dozen women leaders in here. What do you mean you don't have leaders? Now, pastor the flock that God has placed you. That's what Peter says, 1 Peter chapter 5. So if God's given you a congregation with 12 women leaders and a couple of weak male leaders, yeah, develop them in.

27:27 You know, develop them into those elder roles, the senior pastor roles or the potential church planter roles. But if you're failing to shepherd the flock that God has given you as a pastor, that's on you. That's a sin. You are failing to obey the word of God, to shepherd the flock that God has placed you amongst. And so, and I'm preaching to myself here, okay, when I say this. So I realize there's both that practical reality, but I also don't want us to miss the spiritual reality Of dealing with those things and not assuming, as we so often want to, that these things are not true.

28:11 That the things that are in the world, the misogyny in the world, the the patriarchal systems in the world have not crept their way into the culture of the church under the guise of biblicism or under the guise of being biblically faithful. We need to grapple with that earnestly and then take these practical lists and start engaging on them and expand and explore more. So those are just, to me, some root level realities. What say you, Pastor Chase? It's a great question. And I'm going to give a very Baptist answer to that question that begins with Scripture. Because I think if our foundational thinking is grounded in Scripture, if we know who we are and we know what we're called to, we'll know how to act.

28:58 So I would say this, again, as a complementarian, you can't over-focus on 1 Timothy 2 and 1 Corinthians 14 and Ephesians 5 and all of those other keystone complementarian passages, which are the Word of God and are true. But you also need to meditate. If you're a pastor in particular, you need to meditate on what we've talked about today, Romans 16. So complementarians really focus on, I'm caricaturing, and I don't want to be unfair. I think I can caricature my own tribe. Sometimes we tend to focus on Ephesians 5.22, maybe minimize a little bit Ephesians 5.25.

29:39 Husbands love your wife as Christ loved the church. There's a danger there. And passages like Luke 8, and I want to read Luke 8 really quick. Luke 8, verse 8, Jesus was traveling from one town and village to another, preaching and telling the good news of the kingdom of God. The 12 were with him. And that's how we normally picture it. Jesus and the 12, dudes traveling around the countryside doing ministry. But Luke is going to expand our view a little bit of what the Jesus team really looks like. And in verse two, the 12 were with him and also some women who had been healed of evil spirits and sicknesses.

30:20 Mary called Magdalene, seven demons had come out of her, Joanna, the wife of Chudsa, Charod, Stuart, Susanna, and many others, many others. I looked that up in the Greek. It really does say many others. Who were supporting them from their possessions. And I looked that word up in the Greek as well, the supporting word. And that's an interesting word that I don't know this translated in the best way in most of our modern translations. It's the Greek word diakoneo, the word we get deacon from. And it means minister and it means serve. And specifically the grammar there is these women were diakoneo-ing Jesus himself. They were serving him.

31:04 So when you think about the team of Jesus and when you think about the church of Jesus, I think that gives us a great microcosm of what's going on. It's not a bunch of dudes roaming around doing the Lord's work. It's Jesus is the head and this team of saved former sinners who are traveling about with Jesus in the first century and in 2026 doing the work of the kingdom. And when pastors get both of those things in their mind, all sets of those scriptures, what the Bible says about women in ministry, I think they will be ready to release in some churches an unreleased, held back force that could just be a dynamic key to the church flourishing that we're not seeing, that's untapped.

31:57 You know, I can't wait to get back to Kathy, but something I'm reflecting on as I'm listening to your wisdom there, you know, when I'm driving, I don't actually look at the guardrails. I look at the road. Now, the guardrails are there or the painted lines, right? Whichever, right? And I think that there's an odd thing when we look at scripture and we're constantly focusing in any area of our life on all of the guardrails and rather than the road. And I'm not saying we don't acknowledge the guardrails or that we run into the guardrails or we try to go through the guardrails, right? And there are ways that this shows up in so many forms of Scripture where we can get very focused on all the things that we are not to do, as if the things we are not to do is the fulfillment of the kingdom of God in us. And that is not true.

32:56 We need to be focused on what are the things we are to do. And I think this is a good case for us to look at Ought we be doing? You pointed this out, Pastor Chase, what does it mean for husbands to focus on sacrificing? What is it that God's calling us to do? And who is he calling us to be? And I think if pastors were to focus more on what does it mean to empower and encourage women, I'm not saying without insight as to where there are boundary lines, but if I spend all my energy worrying about, have you ever watched, Kathy was talking about somebody learning to drive earlier, right? If you watch a kid learn to ride a bike and they're always looking at the ground because they're afraid they're going to fall, they will never learn to ride a bike well.

33:43 And some people know I used to be a police officer. So one of the things in police tactical driving is you are taught to not look to your sides, but to look into and through the place you want to drive. You're taking your car there because your body will instinctively guide the car to that location. And I think when we're so busy looking at the guardrails, we spend our time there instead of actually empowering women to do the ministry that God has gifted, called, and equipped them for. And we're not focused on that right things. We're busy focused on the guardrails. It's just a great word. And I think it's such a great thing that we can have this opportunity to have these discussions because I do think that women often hear, well, you can't do this, you can't do this, you can't do this, but then they don't.

34:33 Know what they can do, and then they don't know how to do it. And then they don't feel sometimes that they have support in doing that. And we know that we are all supposed to be about building up the body and making disciples. And I love how the New Living Translation states it in Ephesians 4, 16. He says, he makes the whole body fit together perfectly as each part does its own special work. It helps the other parts grow so that the whole body is healthy and growing and full of love. And, you know, that's a different translation than we usually use. But I think it captures the idea that it takes all pieces of the body of Christ, all pieces. And it's not just women that are marginalized. I mean, we see special needs community, marginalized, other things. But in our conversation, we're talking about men and women.

35:22 But it takes some fitting together and understanding that we each have a special work to do. And the work that we do that only brings God glory and honor, but it helps the other parts to grow so that it's healthy. But the key is it's full of love. And I think that's what it all goes back to. Even after the passage in 1 Corinthians 12 about gifts, the next passage is on love and what that means. And it means nothing if we don't do it with love. And I think we've talked about this throughout and that's what it all boils down to, our love for God and our love for people. And when we put that as our perspective and we keep our eyes focused on that, I think it does move us forward. It moves us forward as women to work in our callings and to serve in our gifting, but it also moves pastors and other leaders to move forward to help their whole church to grow up, to be mature and complete and full of love.

36:16 Yes, and amen. And that brings us to our penultimate question that Pastor Christopher gets to ask. And I'm a little jealous because I'm really interested in the answer to the question. We have flown around it this whole time, but I think ending with this as a focus based on the whole theme of our podcast, I think it's going to be really, really important. Okay. How are women in the church today underutilized, Kathy? And specifically, this is a podcast on church flourishing, and we want to see every church flourish. We built this podcast to see every church flourish, every leader be equipped.

36:58 And that's our goal. That's our passion behind here. So how are women in the church today, would you say, an underutilized key to the overall flourishing of the church? And I think you just alluded to it with that passage of Scripture. Well, I think it is basically a summary of everything we've talked about that, they're sometimes just not used at all, or it's kind of they're used in a way that's marginalized or set aside. And so it is under utilization because they're able to only use a fraction of their gifting or a fraction of the energy that the Lord has given them. And they're not able to fully develop in some ways because they can be underused when they're underdeveloped because they're not getting the training in the churches or they're not, If we have a whole segment of a population that's missing at any time, then I think we have to ask ourselves, why is this happening?

37:59 And what can we do to help that? And so I think we've talked about so many ways that women are underutilized, maybe more ways than we can even expand on, but it primarily goes to underutilizing their giftedness and the part that they play in the body of Christ, which is the verse that we just shared. It is, I think it's a really a big disservice when someone is not able to use their gift in the way that God gave it to them. And that goes back to the idea you said, I think in the first podcast on this topic, the idea of helping women discern gifts and recognize those gifts. And then we're moving into the idea of equipping them and enlisting them, entrusting them, all of those wonderful things that if we're not doing that piece of recognition, walking alongside them, then we're not equipping them for it and stuff.

38:56 And then it sort of becomes the self-fulfilling prophecy, doesn't it, right? Yes. And I think another part, too, is just the underutilization of the partnership of the co-worker piece that you were talking about, Christopher, earlier. Like, it is a partnership together. It's a partnership as the body of Christ. It's a partnership as co-workers in the kingdom of God, partnership as brothers and sisters. And I do think that piece is definitely underutilized because we are not really sure what that looks like or what healthy ways are to do that because there's been misuses of relationships and communications. And so I think a relearning really what it truly means to love God in that sacrificial way and to love as Christ loved the church, posturing ourselves in that way first and foremost before the Lord, it changes a lot of things.

39:49 Absolutely. You know, leading a church without women in key places of ministry is like flying a four-engine airplane with only two engines. See, it's not a sports metaphor. It will fly, maybe, but why would you want to do that? It's just silly. So let's close out and briefly talk about resources. I'm always curious, walk by somebody at the park and I see they're reading a book. I want to get close as possible. Like, what are they reading? I'm just very curious about what kind of books and resources and podcasts people that are guests on this show are currently consuming. So, Dr. Kathy, what are the books you're reading right now that are rocking your world, the podcasts and the ministry tools that you would recommend to our listeners?

40:38 Well, one that I just read recently that really has been so freeing to me in so many ways as a female in ministry is by Tim Keller's wife, Kathy Keller. It's Jesus, Justice and Gender Roles. It's a very small book. I never heard of it, but someone that I am just kind of mentoring, shared that with me. And it is really it was a game changer for me. It helped me to be able to distinguish some things that I had taken from tradition and culture. About gender roles and really understanding the freedom that we have in Christ, but the importance of gender roles as well. Because sometimes we think of it as the opposite of gender roles being a constricting thing, but how that it was actually a really freeing thing in the church. Well, there's so many.

41:26 And then another one is it's not related to male and female roles, but it is Instruments in the Redeemer's Hands by Paul David Tripp. And I think when we. As any kind of leader, just live in that understanding that we are an ambassador for Christ and what that means, and that we are an instrument in his hand, that we are not the one using the instruments, but we are his instruments to use. It changes also our posture and our perspective. And I love, for those that are doing women ministry, this Ministry to Women, the Essential Guides for Leading Women in the Local Church by Dr. Kelly King is actually at Gateway graduate.

42:08 And she has some great tools on here and about planning ministry, partnering, how to use those resources. And one of my most favorite podcasts is the Kerry Newhoff Leadership Podcast. He brings in lots of different people. They're not always coming from necessarily Christian perspectives, but he brings in a variety of people, which I think is good to not just surround myself with people that are always thinking the same as me, but to see different perspectives. And one of his more recent ones was the red flags driving women out of the church with Katie Cole was so helpful for wherever he was. You are in leadership roles. And I think that was so important.

42:50 So there's so many, many resources, but those are some of them. Great. Thank you for that list. Do you guys know the interesting trivia thing about Kathy Keller? I don't know. In addition to the fact that she was married to Tim Keller, Kathy Keller as a child was pen pals with C.S. Lewis. Really? Yeah, no kidding. Wow. That is amazing. How would you even get to do that? I think C.S. Lewis was great at answering letters. So you wrote him, he would write you back. Wow, that's very cool. Very cool indeed. Well, thank you, Dr. Kathy Smith. That was fascinating. I am going to kick it over to you, Pastor Christopher Cole, for your last words.

43:35 One final 10 out of 10 bit of wisdom from you. The pressure is on. What would you say to us as we close out today? I think that the good news of Jesus Christ is that God is in the business of making new things happen in this world and that he wants to use all his sons and daughters to do that. And I think that when we don't have that wholehearted vision to include everybody in that mission, that we're missing out on a core component on seeing his church flourish and seeing communities transformed by the gospel.

44:16 And I think the heart of almost every pastor I know is they want to see the kingdom come. And I think that requires us to be intentional about inviting all of the church into that shared mission together and not trying to exclude or diminish or devalue, but to empower and encourage and bless and to focus our ministry there so that together we can see God's kingdom come in our own lives and in the world. Amen to that. And thank you both for your time. Thank you. It's been a great pleasure. And thank you, Dr. Smith, for appearing on our show, for your passion to follow the Word of God and see the women of the church equipped and released to fruitfully function in the joy of their calling.

45:03 I've said it before, say it again today. A church that does not have its ladies equipped and engaged in the ministry of the kingdom is a church that will not be flourishing. Now, before we say goodbye, let's hit a few upcoming events with the GCA, a organization of nearly 100 churches in Central California. You can check out our website at GCASBC.org. I'll tell you one personal upcoming GCA event, and that is that this Tuesday, June 16th, Lord willing, Pastor Christopher Cole and I are joined by Gateway Seminary Extension Head Dr. Cameron Switzer for a wide-ranging discussion at the GCA headquarters in Morgan Hill, California that will cover everything from the Nicene Creed to Doing theology in the San Francisco Bay Area to Jonathan Edwards to training pastors and leaders in the church in the best way possible.

46:02 Those episodes will drop sometime in late June or July. And very next up, you're going to hear from our friend Dr. C.J. Wan, and we will turn our hearts towards prayer and abiding as being the single most crucial element to a church's flourishing or lack of flourishing. Please pray for the regional mission project that the GCA is engaging in, taking place July 26 to August 1st as Shadow Mountain Community Church from the San Diego area partners with our GCA Hispanic churches, FBC Gilroy Espa��ol, Iglesia Bautista Emanuel, Iglesia Bautista Laurel, Iglesia Bautista La Fe, and Iglesia Bautista Arthur Road in and around the Gilroy area.

46:54 Pray that God prepares hearts in the community, blesses the outreach and vacation Bible school ministries, and brings many children, youth, and adults to faith in Christ. Pray for effective evangelism, strong collaboration between churches, spiritual growth among volunteers. Lasting fruit that will continue long after the mission team returns home and above all, the glory of Jesus and the expansion of his kingdom. Also coming up Saturday, August 1st, 2026 at First Baptist Gilroy, the garlic capital of the world. The Great Commission Association is hosting a 2026 evangelism workshop.

47:35 It is from 10 a.m. to 2 p.m. you can contact our friend, host of the show, Chris Cole, at chris.cole at gcasbc.org. That's chris.cole at gcasbc.org. And as soon as I saw this, I went to register for it and Checked my Google Calendar first because I am schedule disabled and found out that our church has vacation Bible school on that day. And I'm the missions guy, so I won't be able to make it, which is a huge bummer. Well, hey, thanks for listening to the show. If you're interested in partnering with us, we would love to hear from you.

48:18 If you've got an upcoming podcast topic or anything like that, please do reach out to us at our website, everychurchflourishing.com. Good day to you and Godspeed.