Episode 3: Church Vital Signs, How to Invite Unchurched People to Your Church and Peanut Butter Soda?!

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<v Chase>Find health, encouragement, practical advice, soul care, and resources that

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<v Chase>work together to build up your local fellowship and the broader kingdom of God.

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<v Chase>Join hosts, Pastor Chris Cole

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<v Chase>and Dr. Chase Thompson from the Great Commission Association, led by Dr.

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<v Chase>Mike Stewart, as they explore the frontiers of ministry and aim for the goal

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<v Chase>of making every church flourish.

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<v Chase>Hello, everybody, and welcome into the Every Church Flourishing Podcast.

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<v Chase>I am your host, Pastor Chase Thompson, and I am joined by...

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<v Chris>Christopher Cole.

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<v Chase>And Pastor Christopher, you are with the Great Commission Association,

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<v Chase>and our whole goal on this podcast is to equip pastors and church leaders to

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<v Chase>have churches that are healthy and flourishing.

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<v Chase>Tell us a little bit about yourself and your role with the GCA.

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<v Chris>I am the Associate Director of Missions here at the Great Commission Association.

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<v Chris>I have been a pastor now for 36 years in ministry.

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<v Chris>Yeah, a good while, still learning, still trying to grow in our understanding

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<v Chris>of what we can do to equip and encourage the churches to see them flourish and

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<v Chris>see their communities transformed by the gospel of Jesus Christ.

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<v Chris>And over the years, I've served in a number of different roles as a missionary,

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<v Chris>a seminary professor very briefly,

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<v Chris>done disaster relief and a number of other ministry type of roles,

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<v Chris>all of it aimed at trying to see communities reached with the good news of Jesus Christ.

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<v Chris>And Chase, you've been here in our association as one of our pastors for quite

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<v Chris>a few years now. So tell us a little bit about yourself.

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<v Chase>Yeah. So this year, at some point in June, I will have been here in California

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<v Chase>for eight years with Valley Baptist Church in Salinas.

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<v Chase>My family and I come from Alabama, and that's where we lived our whole life before that.

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<v Chase>You said you've been in ministry for 36 six years, you don't look that old.

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<v Chase>And I've been in ministry for

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<v Chase>32, 33, something like that years. And I don't feel that old,

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<v Chase>but I guess the fact of the matter is that we're both kind of long in the tooth

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<v Chase>and I did not plan on going into ministry.

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<v Chase>I was going to be an FBI agent in young little Chase's dreams and somehow stumbled

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<v Chase>into an entirely different thing.

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<v Chase>And maybe we'll tell that story at some point down the road.

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<v Chase>You've got a law enforcement background as well. You were a homicide detective,

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<v Chase>police officer. What did you do, Chris?

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<v Chris>Oh, no, no, no detective work. I was a police officer with the Tucson Police

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<v Chris>Department while I was supposed to be planting a church, which is another story

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<v Chris>we could tell another day.

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<v Chris>I like to tell people I was an accidental police officer, but the Lord opened

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<v Chris>some doors for ministry through that.

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<v Chris>Even when we thought we had one ministry assignment, God was doing something else.

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<v Chris>And the diversity of those experiences, I think, has helped shape my ministry

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<v Chris>and helped shape how I try to interact with and encourage pastors from all different backgrounds.

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<v Chris>But it does help me to know how, like when I'm speaking to our bivocational

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<v Chris>or co-vocational pastors, what some of those challenges are.

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<v Chase>Yeah, for each one of us, I bet we have a lot of stories of different jobs we've

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<v Chase>had over the years as we've pastored.

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<v Chase>I know I probably have 15 or 20, different one of those, and none of them quite

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<v Chase>as interesting as being a Tucson police officer.

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<v Chase>So I hope you're going to throw in some stories every now and then from the mean streets of Tucson.

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<v Chase>So how did this podcast come about? What's the origin story, to use a comic book term?

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<v Chris>Yeah, I think this podcast,

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<v Chris>podcast's origin comes from our association's

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<v Chris>passion and really kind of a clarification of our passion to realize that we

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<v Chris>needed to focus in on guiding our churches to places where they are becoming

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<v Chris>intentionally what God has created them to be.

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<v Chris>In John chapter 15, Jesus makes it clear that if we are walking in intimate

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<v Chris>relationship with him, if we are abiding with him, as he says,

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<v Chris>then the overflow of that reality will be fruitfulness or flourishing.

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<v Chris>And Jesus uses a lot of agricultural analogies when he talks about the church.

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<v Chris>He talks about the kingdom of God being like that small mustard seed that turns

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<v Chris>into this great big tree. For.

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<v Chris>So the origin story here is that our team, our Mission Advance team within the

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<v Chris>Great Commission Association, as we were praying through and thinking through

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<v Chris>how God wanted to refine our mission, we really settled on two key priorities.

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<v Chris>That we wanted to see the churches in our association and churches across California

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<v Chris>come to vitality and flourishing with everything that that means and do it in

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<v Chris>such a way that the communities around them are impacted and transformed by the gospel.

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<v Chris>We feel like those are our two primary passions and everything we do,

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<v Chris>we want to aim towards that because we think that's ultimately what the mission

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<v Chris>of Jesus is for all of our churches,

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<v Chris>healthy churches and communities that are being transformed and engaged by the gospel of Jesus.

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<v Chase>So if you're a pastor, if you're a church leader, if you're a youth pastor,

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<v Chase>children's worker, just a Christian that cares about the church in general,

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<v Chase>we're going to try to blend stories about the church,

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<v Chase>practical advice, and you hopefully will be able to listen to this and on the

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<v Chase>one hand, be inspired and encouraged that, hey, it's possible to go from a different

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<v Chase>place than where our church is now.

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<v Chase>If your church is in a place where it's not flourishing, hopefully we're going

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<v Chase>to encourage you in that direction, but also give practical steps to kind of get there.

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<v Chase>My hope is that the podcast will

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<v Chase>be both have some pretty deep spiritual elements, but also nuts and bolts.

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<v Chase>Both of us went to seminary and I've had a lot of time in seminary. I'm a fan.

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<v Chase>You're a professor. I've been a professor in seminary too. But the one thing,

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<v Chase>probably in my experience,

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<v Chase>20-year experience, both as a student and as working for seminaries,

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<v Chase>I feel like we lack that practical nuts and bolts.

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<v Chase>Here's how to lead a church towards health and flourishing.

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<v Chase>And as we look around some of the statistics and the church attendance fall off in the last 25 years,

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<v Chase>I think it demonstrates that our pastors and leaders might have a little bit

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<v Chase>of a blind thought there in that area.

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<v Chase>So Krista, if I was a young pastor and I came to you and this actually happened

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<v Chase>to me when I was in my twenties, I was in a church. It was a good church.

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<v Chase>It was a flourishing church. It was a growing church.

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<v Chase>We had vibrant worship, a great pastor.

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<v Chase>And all of the sudden he decided that God was calling him to be a missionary,

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<v Chase>which is a great, wonderful kind of calling, except he never actually became a missionary.

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<v Chase>He just basically quit being the pastor and handed it off to me and a couple other guys.

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<v Chase>I was the senior pastor now at age 27.

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<v Chase>I had no idea what I was doing. So if I were to have known you then and come

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<v Chase>to you and said, Pastor Chris, you're with the Great Commission Association.

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<v Chase>I don't know what I'm doing. What are some things you would say to me?

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<v Chris>Well, in that story, you know, one of the things that stands out to me as you

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<v Chris>share that story, Chase, is that there were probably things happening behind

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<v Chris>the scenes that weren't visible, right?

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<v Chris>And that is so true in almost every church that finds itself in a place where

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<v Chris>maybe they're not as flourishing as they thought they were.

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<v Chris>You know, when Jesus is speaking to the church in Laodicea and Revelations,

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<v Chris>for example, one thing is because, hey, you think you're rich, right?

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<v Chris>But it turns out you're actually poor, you're pitiable, you're blind, you're naked.

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<v Chris>And there's typically a very big pattern, I think we'll talk about this more

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<v Chris>in the future, where churches often don't have a strong diagnostic sense.

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<v Chris>So right off the bat, I think one of the first things I would say to you is,

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<v Chris>I'm so sorry this happened, but some things are being revealed.

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<v Chris>Some things are being revealed by the work of the Holy Spirit.

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<v Chris>There's a temptation to either run away or to first try to fight it without

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<v Chris>even really knowing and diagnosing where you're at.

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<v Chris>Being able to sit with what God is revealing for a time is probably one of the

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<v Chris>best places you could start if you really want to become a flourishing church.

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<v Chris>You have to be willing to let the Holy Spirit speak into what God is doing,

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<v Chris>and that starts with prayer, radical honesty.

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<v Chris>Healthy self-assessment, and getting churches to the place where they can do

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<v Chris>that is a key step in guiding them and all of us, you know, individually.

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<v Chris>This is true of our individual spiritual lives as well.

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<v Chris>We so often want to skip past the diagnostics that God wants to do,

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<v Chris>that God wants to reveal some of these realities to us.

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<v Chris>And then And he's inviting us. You know, one of the things I think that.

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<v Chris>So many churches, and I've been there, I've been there in the declining churches.

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<v Chris>You know, when I was a 24-year-old lead pastor that didn't have a clue what to do,

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<v Chris>so often we want to rush past the moment of letting the Spirit speak into our

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<v Chris>lives and the time that that takes to let God really diagnose what is happening

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<v Chris>in our church spiritually and structurally and methodologically and missiologically.

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<v Chris>The reality is that skipping that is just lethal.

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<v Chris>You can end up trying to come up with human solutions instead of letting yourself

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<v Chris>be in the presence of God.

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<v Chris>So I think one of the things I would say to you is, hey, brother,

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<v Chris>there's going to be a big temptation to run away, and there's going to be a

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<v Chris>big temptation to try and fix a bunch of things quickly.

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<v Chris>Maybe the best thing you guys can do is just slow everything down.

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<v Chris>Get to the place where you can say, hey, something's being revealed here,

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<v Chris>and we need to slow down. We need to listen to the Spirit.

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<v Chris>Henry Blackaby wrote this wonderful little book now 35 years ago or something,

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<v Chris>a little book called What Is the Spirit Saying to the Churches?

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<v Chris>And obviously, that also comes from Revelation 2 and 3.

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<v Chris>Jesus says over and over again, he says, if you have ears to hear.

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<v Chris>Why don't you hear what the Spirit is saying? And I think that that begins the

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<v Chris>place of reposturing your heart and mind to bring you to a place of abiding

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<v Chris>in Christ, letting Him diagnose what is happening in your church.

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<v Chris>And so getting people to that posture is a big priority of what we try to do right now.

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<v Chris>We do that through spiritual exercises, like getting churches to do 40 days

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<v Chris>of prayer together or doing some particularly challenging Bible studies that

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<v Chris>are diagnostic in focus,

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<v Chris>and then helping them do assessments and things like that that help them analyze

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<v Chris>and hear the voice of the Spirit so that then they can begin to say,

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<v Chris>hey, here's what God wants to do in the life of our church.

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<v Chris>Here's what it will take for us to recenter our relationship with Christ and

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<v Chris>step into a place of flourishing.

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<v Chase>Okay, so you've used a word about seven, eight, nine, ten times that we actually

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<v Chase>didn't discussed before the podcast, but I'm going to zero in on it anyway,

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<v Chase>because I think it's very crucial to talk about.

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<v Chase>In healthcare, diagnostics are really important.

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<v Chase>I go to a doctor and I asked him a question two or three years ago about some symptoms I was having.

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<v Chase>He said, we need more data. He ordered some tests to get that data.

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<v Chase>And of course, Paul, the apostle of 1 Corinthians and other places,

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<v Chase>he compares the church to a human body. It's fair to use that term diagnostics to talk about that.

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<v Chase>I think you're probably not merely talking about the amount of offering on a

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<v Chase>Sunday morning or Sunday morning attendance.

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<v Chase>So beyond those two things, which I think every pastor probably pays pretty good attention to,

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<v Chase>What are some crucial diagnostics that a church should look at to determine its level of health?

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<v Chris>Yeah, that's a fantastic question. And I do think diagnosis is such a good analogy here, right?

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<v Chris>We want to, in our bodies, we want our bodies to flourish. We want us to be

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<v Chris>healthy and free and able to do all that we want to do.

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<v Chris>So some of the diagnostic parameters that we use as we sit down with churches

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<v Chris>is to say, let's take a look at things like, what's the vitality of your prayer life as a congregation?

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<v Chris>Is prayer meeting your least attended event of the week?

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<v Chris>How can you be abiding in Christ if your prayer life is so incredibly weak?

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<v Chris>And there's wonderful books out there, Jim Cimbala's Fresh Wind, Fresh Fire.

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<v Chris>He talks about the critical reality of if you want to see the Spirit move in

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<v Chris>your church, but church doesn't have a vital prayer ministry.

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<v Chris>And it's something, a prayer ministry that goes beyond just sort of praying

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<v Chris>for God to relieve the aches and pains, temporal tribulations of the congregation.

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<v Chris>We should pray for those things, but prayer that is missional,

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<v Chris>prayer that is broken for the community.

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<v Chris>If you want to see your community reached with the gospel, and that's your passion,

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<v Chris>but no one's praying for it, no one's praying for neighborhoods.

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<v Chris>So vitality of prayer life is certainly one of them.

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<v Chris>The vitality of the Word of God as it is being preached and centered,

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<v Chris>has the Word of God somehow slipped into a pragmatic manual?

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<v Chris>Or is it being really the Word of God, the people of God being fed from the

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<v Chris>Word of God persistently?

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<v Chris>Those are two immediate things that we would look at, the preaching and prayer.

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<v Chris>And then we would be looking at things like, what is the community's actual

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<v Chris>health like? I've yet to step into a church that's been honest enough to say.

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<v Chris>Hey, we really aren't that close with each other. Almost always they'll tell

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<v Chris>me, oh, our fellowship is good. We're known as a church of love.

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<v Chris>And yet very often what I find is there are hidden conflicts.

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<v Chris>There are unhealthy relational dynamics, or they're just very shallow.

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<v Chris>I've talked to people, for example, they've gone to church together in small

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<v Chris>churches where there's a group of 25, 30, 40 people, and they've been going

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<v Chris>to church together for 20 years, and they say, oh, we love each other very much.

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<v Chris>And then I say, great, tell me what their kids' names are. And they can't.

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<v Chris>They're not at that level of relational awareness. Well, if you don't know someone's

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<v Chris>children's names, if you aren't even that close to them, likelihood is your

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<v Chris>fellowship's very shallow.

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<v Chris>So we're looking at things when we say, as a church flourishing,

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<v Chris>we're looking at things like, what's their relationship to God?

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<v Chris>What's their relationship to each other look like?

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<v Chris>And then the third thing we're going to look at is in a big category,

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<v Chris>and we could break this out later, perhaps in some other episodes,

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<v Chris>is we're going to say, what's their relationship to their community like?

00:15:40.275 --> 00:15:44.515
<v Chris>Are they engaged with their community? Are they oppositional to their community?

00:15:44.795 --> 00:15:49.375
<v Chris>Very often we find that churches have adopted postures because the community

00:15:49.375 --> 00:15:54.095
<v Chris>has changed demographically or socially, politically.

00:15:54.575 --> 00:15:59.535
<v Chris>The church is against their community. They're not for their community.

00:16:00.058 --> 00:16:05.098
<v Chris>When Jesus says to us things like, don't be of the world, or scripture says,

00:16:05.238 --> 00:16:11.178
<v Chris>don't be friends with the world, it's not saying to us, be against the world.

00:16:11.618 --> 00:16:16.818
<v Chris>Jesus did not come into the world to be against the world, but to be for the world.

00:16:17.178 --> 00:16:22.658
<v Chris>Now, he was not of the world, but we want to see our churches shift in their dynamics.

00:16:22.838 --> 00:16:26.818
<v Chris>It's very hard to be flourishing if you have an unhealthy relationship to God,

00:16:26.998 --> 00:16:32.558
<v Chris>an unhealthy relationship with each other and an unhealthy relational dynamic with your community.

00:16:32.758 --> 00:16:37.138
<v Chris>So we would center our diagnostics, our tools, our engagements,

00:16:37.538 --> 00:16:39.198
<v Chris>our questions around those three things.

00:16:39.278 --> 00:16:45.198
<v Chris>And I think that's what I would say to that young pastor that you were talking about earlier is to say,

00:16:45.478 --> 00:16:50.178
<v Chris>hey, when you're listening to the Spirit, ask Him to reveal to you what's our

00:16:50.178 --> 00:16:53.878
<v Chris>relationship with you like, what's our relationship with each other like,

00:16:53.998 --> 00:16:56.398
<v Chris>and what's our relationship with the world like.

00:16:56.558 --> 00:17:01.038
<v Chase>Yeah, that's awesome. One of the key diagnostic questions I look at,

00:17:01.158 --> 00:17:05.338
<v Chase>and it's not like money ball, it's not like batting average or a statistic like

00:17:05.338 --> 00:17:09.938
<v Chase>that, but I, as a pastor, for years have had a

00:17:10.357 --> 00:17:15.597
<v Chase>a mantra almost. A motto is probably a better word, that everybody plays ball.

00:17:15.817 --> 00:17:20.377
<v Chase>And for years, I've been very persuaded by Paul's understanding of spiritual

00:17:20.377 --> 00:17:21.937
<v Chase>gifts in 1 Corinthians 12,

00:17:22.217 --> 00:17:28.237
<v Chase>13 and 14, and just his teaching through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit

00:17:28.237 --> 00:17:34.617
<v Chase>that every member who is a Christian is supernaturally empowered for ministry.

00:17:34.857 --> 00:17:39.217
<v Chase>And so in any church I'm trying to lead, It can't be a one-man show.

00:17:39.377 --> 00:17:44.957
<v Chase>For one, I'm not a good enough man to be a one-man show. I don't have those kind of talents.

00:17:45.217 --> 00:17:49.477
<v Chase>I've got a couple of things that God has gifted me to do, and I've got some

00:17:49.477 --> 00:17:53.377
<v Chase>glaring weaknesses and a lot of areas in between.

00:17:53.837 --> 00:18:00.877
<v Chase>And so we're not like the Cleveland Cavaliers basketball team of 15 or 20 years

00:18:00.877 --> 00:18:05.617
<v Chase>ago when it was LeBron James and just a bunch of role players.

00:18:05.757 --> 00:18:10.297
<v Chase>That's not how the church is, but a lot of pastors approach church that way.

00:18:10.437 --> 00:18:14.497
<v Chase>They think they're the all-star MVP that's got to do everything.

00:18:14.777 --> 00:18:19.757
<v Chase>And it's tempting to fall into that. And I think one of the most important

00:18:20.368 --> 00:18:26.268
<v Chase>Diagnostic criteria for whether or not a church is healthy is sort of the percentage

00:18:26.268 --> 00:18:33.008
<v Chase>or the number of leaders that are actually involved in doing ministry.

00:18:33.448 --> 00:18:38.708
<v Chase>And for our church, a goal, and it's a pretty easy goal, but a goal of mine

00:18:38.708 --> 00:18:44.868
<v Chase>on pretty much every Sunday is to have five, six, seven leaders on the mic at

00:18:44.868 --> 00:18:47.208
<v Chase>some point, whether they're reading scripture,

00:18:47.628 --> 00:18:52.828
<v Chase>fraying, just doing announcements or mentioning the offering or something like that.

00:18:52.988 --> 00:19:00.788
<v Chase>And I want to have those rotate across kind of a broad swath of our congregation

00:19:00.788 --> 00:19:06.208
<v Chase>so that not only do we have that philosophy of everybody plays ball,

00:19:06.368 --> 00:19:11.288
<v Chase>but on a Sunday morning, which usually for a church will be the most visible

00:19:11.288 --> 00:19:14.688
<v Chase>kind of expression of ministry that we have,

00:19:14.888 --> 00:19:20.588
<v Chase>I want everybody that comes to the church to see that strategy It's a reality

00:19:20.588 --> 00:19:22.888
<v Chase>that manifests every week.

00:19:23.088 --> 00:19:26.768
<v Chase>So if you come to our church three out of four weeks in a month,

00:19:27.008 --> 00:19:34.348
<v Chase>you'll probably see 15 or so different people on a Sunday morning having some

00:19:34.348 --> 00:19:35.988
<v Chase>sort of significant role.

00:19:36.148 --> 00:19:40.308
<v Chase>You mentioned prayer earlier, how important that is. And we end every service

00:19:40.308 --> 00:19:41.968
<v Chase>in an extended time of prayer.

00:19:42.208 --> 00:19:48.028
<v Chase>And I used to kind of have the microphone during that ministry time for whatever reason.

00:19:48.509 --> 00:19:52.509
<v Chase>But over the last couple of months, I've handed that off to a different leader,

00:19:52.989 --> 00:19:55.869
<v Chase>a different deacon every Sunday.

00:19:56.209 --> 00:20:01.849
<v Chase>So that again, we get more and more people involved. And I think it's a hard number to define,

00:20:02.009 --> 00:20:07.049
<v Chase>but I think one of the factors in diagnostics of whether or not a church is

00:20:07.049 --> 00:20:15.169
<v Chase>flourishing is how many people you have that are actively engaged in making disciples.

00:20:15.449 --> 00:20:18.969
<v Chase>Do you have a stat like that? Do you have a diagnostic? like that.

00:20:19.269 --> 00:20:22.469
<v Chris>Man, that is so good, Chase. Everything you just said, I would amen.

00:20:22.689 --> 00:20:27.409
<v Chris>And by the way, I've been to your church and I would amen that very thing.

00:20:27.589 --> 00:20:31.269
<v Chris>We've seen that the very first time my wife and I visited your congregation.

00:20:31.749 --> 00:20:36.609
<v Chris>My wife turned to me and she said, I love this. He's doing what we have always

00:20:36.609 --> 00:20:38.569
<v Chris>prioritized in our ministry as well.

00:20:38.649 --> 00:20:43.089
<v Chris>You have all of your people engaged in so many different elements of worship there.

00:20:43.249 --> 00:20:46.169
<v Chris>There's so much to commend, brother, in that everything.

00:20:46.349 --> 00:20:49.649
<v Chris>And we've seen your congregation's prayer life too.

00:20:50.249 --> 00:20:55.089
<v Chris>And I would just, by the way, I would say everything you just said is so true

00:20:55.089 --> 00:21:01.789
<v Chris>based on scriptural argument that we are in fact not supposed to be the center

00:21:01.789 --> 00:21:03.109
<v Chris>of the church as pastors.

00:21:03.369 --> 00:21:06.629
<v Chris>Jesus is the head of the church. Jesus is the center of the church,

00:21:06.629 --> 00:21:09.409
<v Chris>and he is at work amongst all of the people.

00:21:09.589 --> 00:21:16.269
<v Chris>And part of the pastoral role is to invite people into that ministry to one

00:21:16.269 --> 00:21:22.809
<v Chris>another. As it says in Scripture that everyone has a word, and everyone is bringing different things.

00:21:23.009 --> 00:21:25.729
<v Chris>So that's a phenomenal thing.

00:21:26.400 --> 00:21:31.800
<v Chris>Quick test to see, you know, hey, is the church healthy? Is it flourishing?

00:21:32.020 --> 00:21:38.000
<v Chris>I think maybe one other quick diagnostic I would say is how many lost people

00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:38.900
<v Chris>are coming to your church?

00:21:39.080 --> 00:21:44.560
<v Chris>It matters if you don't have lost people regularly, whether that's Sunday morning

00:21:44.560 --> 00:21:50.340
<v Chris>attendance or lost people attending your small groups or your people regularly

00:21:50.340 --> 00:21:54.040
<v Chris>engaging lost people in some particular form.

00:21:54.040 --> 00:21:59.120
<v Chris>I think there is a critical test there as to whether or not the church is flourishing,

00:21:59.120 --> 00:22:05.580
<v Chris>because if the church is not engaging the lostness around them in a regular fashion.

00:22:06.140 --> 00:22:12.640
<v Chris>Then that church is either plateaued or declining, even if their outward numbers don't yet show it.

00:22:12.720 --> 00:22:18.480
<v Chris>How often are lost or unchurched people, people without a personal relationship

00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:23.960
<v Chris>with Jesus Christ or without a church family regularly attending your church?

00:22:24.140 --> 00:22:28.960
<v Chris>And what proportion of your congregation do they make up?

00:22:29.080 --> 00:22:34.800
<v Chris>The church worship services are for the people of God, but even in Scripture,

00:22:35.020 --> 00:22:38.300
<v Chris>there's the assumption that lost people will come in and say.

00:22:38.800 --> 00:22:41.920
<v Chris>Surely God is among you. There is a,

00:22:42.118 --> 00:22:49.838
<v Chris>a reality that if we are engaging people regularly in our personal walk with

00:22:49.838 --> 00:22:53.898
<v Chris>Christ, in our workplaces, in the highways and byways of life,

00:22:54.178 --> 00:23:00.158
<v Chris>that those people should be showing up somewhere in a small group or in a after-church

00:23:00.158 --> 00:23:02.518
<v Chris>barbecue or in a worship service.

00:23:02.578 --> 00:23:07.778
<v Chris>So where are lost people showing up when the church is gathered is another really

00:23:07.778 --> 00:23:09.178
<v Chris>good, quick diagnostic.

00:23:09.178 --> 00:23:14.438
<v Chris>And if the answer is, hey, we haven't had a lost person, person without a faith

00:23:14.438 --> 00:23:19.758
<v Chris>relationship with Christ, show up in a worship service in any regular significant

00:23:19.758 --> 00:23:21.978
<v Chris>way for two or three or five years,

00:23:22.238 --> 00:23:26.898
<v Chris>then it's a very strong indicator of how unhealthy the church is.

00:23:27.298 --> 00:23:32.238
<v Chris>Healthy churches regularly have lost people show up because they're curious

00:23:32.238 --> 00:23:37.078
<v Chris>to know about the hope that the people of God are living out in their lives.

00:23:37.078 --> 00:23:41.018
<v Chris>That should be transformative in a way that people are saying.

00:23:41.542 --> 00:23:47.002
<v Chris>Hey, I want to know what is happening there. I want to see if God is really amongst them.

00:23:47.202 --> 00:23:50.822
<v Chris>And again, that may not just be on Sunday morning worship services.

00:23:50.982 --> 00:23:55.422
<v Chris>It may be when a small group gathers or it could be when two or three couples

00:23:55.422 --> 00:23:56.562
<v Chris>from your church get together.

00:23:56.762 --> 00:24:00.242
<v Chris>Do they regularly invite lost people to join them?

00:24:00.362 --> 00:24:05.602
<v Chris>Are the people there being engaged? If the answer is no or it's very minimal,

00:24:05.882 --> 00:24:10.942
<v Chris>then you have a pretty good indicator that the church is already plateaued or

00:24:10.942 --> 00:24:14.982
<v Chris>in decline and is on its way out of flourishing.

00:24:15.182 --> 00:24:19.562
<v Chris>And sometimes that can take quite a while for church people to realize.

00:24:20.062 --> 00:24:23.562
<v Chase>Totally agree with that. And you know what? People are listening right now,

00:24:24.122 --> 00:24:27.682
<v Chase>church leaders, church members, pastors, of course, and they're saying,

00:24:27.822 --> 00:24:32.822
<v Chase>well, yeah, great, Pastor Chris, I'd love to have lost people beating down the

00:24:32.822 --> 00:24:36.382
<v Chase>door of our church and it's not happening.

00:24:36.682 --> 00:24:41.962
<v Chase>And so in a moment, I'm going to ask you the question as we go into the second

00:24:41.962 --> 00:24:45.242
<v Chase>part of our discussion of healthy churches.

00:24:45.622 --> 00:24:51.882
<v Chase>How are some practical ways we can encourage lost people, non-church,

00:24:52.142 --> 00:24:54.062
<v Chase>unchurched people to come visit us?

00:24:54.182 --> 00:24:57.382
<v Chase>But I tell you what, right now, Well, I'm kind of thirsty.

00:24:57.642 --> 00:25:02.842
<v Chase>Me too. And I think this would be a great time to take a break.

00:25:02.922 --> 00:25:08.142
<v Chase>And we are not yet sponsored by Coca-Cola or Pepsi or Dr.

00:25:08.262 --> 00:25:12.762
<v Chase>Pepper or any of the major Red Bull, that sort of thing. Maybe one day that'll happen.

00:25:13.102 --> 00:25:17.002
<v Chase>Chris, how did Grace run down all of these sodas for us?

00:25:17.142 --> 00:25:21.682
<v Chris>I don't know, but I do think there might be a bit of cruelty involved here and

00:25:21.682 --> 00:25:24.862
<v Chris>a little bit of a wicked sense of humor.

00:25:24.862 --> 00:25:29.702
<v Chris>But also, I think, just an adventuresome spirit. I think those things must have

00:25:29.702 --> 00:25:35.062
<v Chris>driven her because I have looked over the sodas that she has gotten us to try

00:25:35.062 --> 00:25:39.242
<v Chris>and I'm eager to try some, less eager on some of the

00:25:39.615 --> 00:25:43.675
<v Chris>But today, today we, we're going to try this one right here.

00:25:43.935 --> 00:25:46.875
<v Chris>This is Lester's Fixins, right?

00:25:47.215 --> 00:25:49.955
<v Chris>Peanut butter and jelly soda.

00:25:50.535 --> 00:25:52.515
<v Chase>I don't know who Lester is. Do you?

00:25:52.695 --> 00:25:57.175
<v Chris>I do not. Okay. But there's a picture of him here. So yeah, he looks like a

00:25:57.175 --> 00:25:58.935
<v Chris>lot of Baptist deacons that I've known.

00:25:59.755 --> 00:26:03.595
<v Chase>He would totally be home in a 1980s Baptist church.

00:26:03.775 --> 00:26:07.495
<v Chris>He definitely would. And perhaps that's where he came from. But this is the.

00:26:07.535 --> 00:26:07.895
<v Chase>Probably so.

00:26:07.895 --> 00:26:15.335
<v Chris>The peanut butter and jelly soda from Lester's Fix-In. And this is made in the USA, right?

00:26:15.815 --> 00:26:16.295
<v Chase>Yeah, yeah.

00:26:16.495 --> 00:26:20.415
<v Chris>And not all of our sodas will be made in the USA. In fact, we're going to try

00:26:20.415 --> 00:26:22.675
<v Chris>some sodas, I think, from around the world. Is that right?

00:26:22.955 --> 00:26:28.635
<v Chase>Well, one of the sodas I noticed is like Spetsnaz orange soda or something like that.

00:26:29.315 --> 00:26:33.335
<v Chase>It's like Special Forces from back in the day. I don't think it's actually Spetsnaz,

00:26:33.435 --> 00:26:34.715
<v Chase>but it reminded me of that.

00:26:34.975 --> 00:26:38.315
<v Chase>So we're going to do that one down the road. But for now, I'm going to pop the

00:26:38.315 --> 00:26:40.855
<v Chase>top on my peanut butter and jelly.

00:26:41.315 --> 00:26:45.315
<v Chase>I got to ask, Chris, are you a peanut butter and jelly fan? Because you picked

00:26:45.315 --> 00:26:46.575
<v Chase>this one out for the first episode.

00:26:46.855 --> 00:26:51.255
<v Chris>I am a huge peanut butter and jelly fan. I have to be honest and say that, you know,

00:26:51.375 --> 00:26:55.775
<v Chris>sometimes when I've had a long day and I don't feel like making a dinner or

00:26:55.775 --> 00:26:59.215
<v Chris>something else, I am prone to make myself a peanut butter and jelly sandwich

00:26:59.215 --> 00:27:01.915
<v Chris>and have a nice big glass of milk to go along with that.

00:27:02.391 --> 00:27:03.471
<v Chase>What's your favorite jelly?

00:27:04.011 --> 00:27:08.011
<v Chris>Oh, man. I love so many good jellies. Pretty much any cherry jelly.

00:27:08.491 --> 00:27:11.671
<v Chris>Cherry jelly. Wow. Cherry preserves.

00:27:12.151 --> 00:27:12.551
<v Chase>Nice.

00:27:13.131 --> 00:27:15.791
<v Chris>Cherry preserves are, yeah, they're the bomb.

00:27:16.131 --> 00:27:22.531
<v Chase>That's a good call. I love cherry. Yeah. I am not a peanut butter and jelly man traditionally.

00:27:23.091 --> 00:27:27.011
<v Chase>Okay. Although I'm not a hater. I'm kind of a neutral. So I'll be a good judge

00:27:27.011 --> 00:27:32.291
<v Chase>of whether this would be a good soda for your average Joe, And you'll be a good

00:27:32.291 --> 00:27:37.971
<v Chase>judge of whether or not this will be a good soda for a peanut butter and jelly aficionado.

00:27:38.351 --> 00:27:39.031
<v Chris>All right.

00:27:39.311 --> 00:27:40.751
<v Chase>Are you ready? Here we go.

00:27:41.051 --> 00:27:45.411
<v Chris>Hmm. Now, I'm getting a lot of like the peanut butter flavor.

00:27:46.349 --> 00:27:50.769
<v Chase>I I've had a lot of sodas in my life. I mean, a lot.

00:27:51.089 --> 00:27:56.589
<v Chase>I am a real connoisseur of sodas and I've never had one that tasted like this

00:27:56.589 --> 00:27:59.649
<v Chase>or looked like this, to be honest with you. It's kind of pinkish Brown.

00:27:59.929 --> 00:28:03.849
<v Chris>It has, I'm getting a, you know, it's weird. Like, you know,

00:28:04.229 --> 00:28:07.749
<v Chris>I like the peanut butters on the back end and the jellies on the front end.

00:28:07.909 --> 00:28:12.509
<v Chase>That's great. Yeah. It's got a little bit of a, it doesn't look thick.

00:28:12.689 --> 00:28:15.109
<v Chase>It's got a little bit of a thick mouth feel.

00:28:15.489 --> 00:28:18.689
<v Chris>It does. It feels like my mouth is getting coated with peanut butter.

00:28:19.149 --> 00:28:22.909
<v Chase>Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And I would not, I would not say unpleasant.

00:28:23.149 --> 00:28:28.289
<v Chase>I would say this is a, if I was on a picnic right now and it was about 75 degrees

00:28:28.289 --> 00:28:30.849
<v Chase>outside, I was fishing next to a lake.

00:28:30.949 --> 00:28:33.429
<v Chase>This would be a refreshing beverage.

00:28:33.709 --> 00:28:38.249
<v Chris>I wonder if there, you know, if I had a glass of milk and I drank this and then

00:28:38.249 --> 00:28:42.129
<v Chris>took a sip of the milk, if it would taste like having a glass of milk with a

00:28:42.129 --> 00:28:43.329
<v Chris>peanut butter and jelly sandwich.

00:28:43.629 --> 00:28:49.809
<v Chase>Yeah, I wonder if you're right. It's got pure cane sugar, so this is not a diet beverage.

00:28:50.089 --> 00:28:52.669
<v Chris>No, 170 calories here.

00:28:52.909 --> 00:28:53.849
<v Chase>Yep, that's a lot.

00:28:53.969 --> 00:28:59.509
<v Chris>In this soda. I'm not sure where I would place this in some kind of rating.

00:29:00.549 --> 00:29:03.089
<v Chris>What would you give this soda?

00:29:03.349 --> 00:29:06.609
<v Chase>It's a great question, and I'm going to give you an answer to that.

00:29:06.769 --> 00:29:10.669
<v Chase>How would I rate this? Well, we're going to rate our sodas on a scale of zero

00:29:10.669 --> 00:29:15.589
<v Chase>to five Spurgeons, because we're both kind of Charles Spurgeon guys in a lot of ways.

00:29:15.749 --> 00:29:19.769
<v Chase>And this is a Christian podcast, so we got to use a Christian podcast rating.

00:29:20.029 --> 00:29:26.429
<v Chase>And for me, a zero Spurgeon beverage would be tab. Have you ever had tab?

00:29:26.689 --> 00:29:32.249
<v Chris>I have. And I'm about to confess something. There's a weird taste to tab.

00:29:32.954 --> 00:29:34.754
<v Chris>That somehow I like.

00:29:35.034 --> 00:29:35.774
<v Chase>Wow. Okay.

00:29:36.234 --> 00:29:40.734
<v Chris>And I, and I know, and not, not like I would say it's my favorite beverage,

00:29:40.974 --> 00:29:44.874
<v Chris>but it's got all of that chemical flavor that somehow in my,

00:29:44.994 --> 00:29:47.974
<v Chris>my mind, maybe it's like some resonant memory from my childhood,

00:29:48.174 --> 00:29:51.854
<v Chris>like where tab was like this, like adult thing, like, you know,

00:29:51.974 --> 00:29:54.934
<v Chris>cause kids were drinking, you know, sugar sodas and stuff.

00:29:55.094 --> 00:29:58.554
<v Chris>Only adults drink tab. Maybe I thought it was sort of like the Baptist version

00:29:58.554 --> 00:30:00.994
<v Chris>of having a, an adult beverage or something.

00:30:01.594 --> 00:30:06.434
<v Chris>So growing up in a teetotaling home, maybe I thought that tab was sort of like,

00:30:06.554 --> 00:30:09.574
<v Chris>Hey, that forbidden thing that only adults can have.

00:30:09.814 --> 00:30:13.474
<v Chris>So, so, so, so tab is a zero Spurgeon for you.

00:30:13.594 --> 00:30:16.074
<v Chase>It's for me. Yeah. It sounds like you kind of like tab.

00:30:16.274 --> 00:30:19.134
<v Chris>Well, I don't know if I like it. I just think it's got a weird little thing.

00:30:19.354 --> 00:30:22.914
<v Chase>My mom drank about a pallet of tab, uh, every week.

00:30:23.154 --> 00:30:28.414
<v Chase>I mean, she was so into tab and I couldn't stand it. Now I'm saying that it's

00:30:28.414 --> 00:30:31.014
<v Chase>been probably three decades since I've tried it.

00:30:31.174 --> 00:30:34.754
<v Chase>So if we can find some tab, we need to do a re-review.

00:30:35.214 --> 00:30:41.214
<v Chris>So if Grace, if you are watching this, we need to find some tab for Chase and I to try.

00:30:41.534 --> 00:30:43.294
<v Chase>T-A-B, yeah, tab.

00:30:43.946 --> 00:30:49.846
<v Chase>I would love to see how it holds up now. So Tab would be Zero Spurgeons for me.

00:30:50.306 --> 00:30:57.546
<v Chase>Five Spurgeons would be Mountain Dew Baja Blast, the new Coke Zero cherry.

00:30:58.006 --> 00:30:59.866
<v Chase>Those would probably be the pinnacle.

00:31:00.386 --> 00:31:05.186
<v Chase>Or Crest Better Lemon, which is a beverage you can get in Africa,

00:31:05.466 --> 00:31:07.586
<v Chase>in parts of Africa, Tanzania, and Kenya.

00:31:07.846 --> 00:31:10.186
<v Chris>And we want to try that one at some point, I think.

00:31:10.346 --> 00:31:14.186
<v Chase>I would love to try that one. Yeah, it's really, like, it's weird.

00:31:14.646 --> 00:31:18.546
<v Chase>It's not everybody's jam. It really is kind of bitter and lemony.

00:31:18.726 --> 00:31:24.486
<v Chase>And it maybe was because I was in Africa and our beverage choice was limited.

00:31:24.846 --> 00:31:31.286
<v Chase>But I love me some Crest Bitter Lemon. And Coke Zero Cherry and Baja Blast Mountain

00:31:31.286 --> 00:31:32.466
<v Chase>Dew. Those are the pinnacles.

00:31:32.646 --> 00:31:36.626
<v Chase>And I'm going to give this, I'm going to, gosh, it's so cowardly of me,

00:31:37.086 --> 00:31:38.386
<v Chase>two and a half Spurgeons.

00:31:38.706 --> 00:31:39.886
<v Chris>Two and a half Spurgeons.

00:31:40.046 --> 00:31:41.126
<v Chase>Right in the middle.

00:31:41.126 --> 00:31:42.166
<v Chris>Right in the middle.

00:31:42.446 --> 00:31:47.426
<v Chase>I don't hate it. It's pretty good. I don't, I wouldn't marry it. What about you?

00:31:47.586 --> 00:31:52.386
<v Chris>I think in this case, I, I'm kind of with you, you know, it would be somewhere

00:31:52.386 --> 00:31:54.506
<v Chris>between a two and a three Spurgeon.

00:31:54.746 --> 00:31:59.866
<v Chris>So, and one reason why is that sort of weird peanut butter mouth feel that I

00:31:59.866 --> 00:32:03.226
<v Chris>think you would have to have if you had a peanut butter thing,

00:32:03.386 --> 00:32:05.846
<v Chris>but it sort of stays with you in your mouth.

00:32:05.926 --> 00:32:09.366
<v Chris>And I'm not sure I think that's a particularly pleasant aftertaste.

00:32:09.366 --> 00:32:13.846
<v Chris>So I definitely wouldn't put it on the upper end. Not a lot of the jelly flavor.

00:32:14.046 --> 00:32:17.286
<v Chris>You know, I'm just going to go with a solid two Spurgeons.

00:32:17.466 --> 00:32:21.086
<v Chris>It's not, I wouldn't throw it away necessarily, but I don't know that I would

00:32:21.086 --> 00:32:26.026
<v Chris>go find this in a cooler full of ice on a warm day and say, I want to have another

00:32:26.026 --> 00:32:28.426
<v Chris>one of those peanut butter and jelly sodas.

00:32:28.858 --> 00:32:34.858
<v Chase>Pastor Chris, we're going back into our final topic, the big practical one you mentioned earlier.

00:32:35.058 --> 00:32:37.438
<v Chase>Okay, so I'm a church member listening. I'm a deacon.

00:32:37.818 --> 00:32:41.118
<v Chase>I'm a Sunday school teacher, Wednesday night leader, small group leader.

00:32:41.378 --> 00:32:45.618
<v Chase>I'm a pastor, a youth pastor. Lost people are not beating down the door of my

00:32:45.618 --> 00:32:48.278
<v Chase>church. What's going on? How can I change that?

00:32:48.558 --> 00:32:52.498
<v Chris>I think that once again, you have to be careful about the diagnostics here,

00:32:52.618 --> 00:32:56.298
<v Chris>about the why, and every church and every person is going to be a little bit different.

00:32:56.378 --> 00:33:01.218
<v Chris>But there are some persistently consistent habits.

00:33:01.418 --> 00:33:06.238
<v Chris>Number one, I would say is to ask yourself, how many lost people am I in relationship with?

00:33:06.458 --> 00:33:09.098
<v Chris>How many, just start right there. How many lost people do I know?

00:33:09.358 --> 00:33:16.218
<v Chris>Many times Christians have isolated themselves from ordinary friendships with lost people.

00:33:16.338 --> 00:33:21.698
<v Chris>And if that is where you are at and you realize, hey, I don't really have any

00:33:21.698 --> 00:33:24.878
<v Chris>lost friends, then I would say, well, go out and make friends for Jesus.

00:33:25.098 --> 00:33:31.818
<v Chris>Whether that's joining a different golf foursome or joining a different yoga

00:33:31.818 --> 00:33:35.658
<v Chris>group, some fitness center or something like that. Get out.

00:33:36.018 --> 00:33:40.958
<v Chris>Do something where you start connecting with lost people and start there praying

00:33:40.958 --> 00:33:43.598
<v Chris>for lost people. Start by praying for your neighborhood.

00:33:43.798 --> 00:33:45.998
<v Chris>Pray that God will open doors for a relationship.

00:33:46.318 --> 00:33:48.318
<v Chris>There's a wonderful book called Bless.

00:33:48.678 --> 00:33:52.778
<v Chris>John and Dave Ferguson wrote a book that It was based on a bunch of strategies

00:33:52.778 --> 00:33:57.398
<v Chris>that were developed across the United States by a variety of church planters

00:33:57.398 --> 00:34:00.838
<v Chris>and pastors that Ferguson sort of just put it all into a book.

00:34:00.978 --> 00:34:06.318
<v Chris>It gives some really good strategies for building relationships with lost people.

00:34:06.538 --> 00:34:07.998
<v Chris>Start by praying for them.

00:34:08.498 --> 00:34:11.638
<v Chris>Get into relationship with them. Learn how to listen.

00:34:12.402 --> 00:34:17.702
<v Chris>To lost people. A lot of times the church is in a posture of telling lost people

00:34:17.702 --> 00:34:20.842
<v Chris>where they are wrong and trying to correct them.

00:34:21.122 --> 00:34:26.842
<v Chris>And instead of having a posture of humility and listening and understanding

00:34:26.842 --> 00:34:31.202
<v Chris>what are their life questions, what are their challenges, what are they going through?

00:34:31.802 --> 00:34:38.082
<v Chris>And then try to get into a place where you're literally eating with lost people.

00:34:38.082 --> 00:34:41.822
<v Chris>You know, Jesus ate with lost people a lot.

00:34:41.962 --> 00:34:44.682
<v Chris>That's one of the key things we, in fact, see him doing.

00:34:44.882 --> 00:34:48.842
<v Chris>His first miracle was at a party, and after his resurrection,

00:34:48.842 --> 00:34:52.862
<v Chris>when he shows up with his disciples, he even makes them breakfast.

00:34:53.302 --> 00:34:58.482
<v Chris>And throughout his ministry, you see him eating with the Pharisees and with

00:34:58.482 --> 00:35:00.722
<v Chris>the tax collectors and the sinners.

00:35:01.082 --> 00:35:05.242
<v Chris>He's eating with and in fellowship with all these people. So try to get people

00:35:05.242 --> 00:35:09.322
<v Chris>to come over to your house. Have a barbecue where you invite lost people and

00:35:09.322 --> 00:35:12.182
<v Chris>maybe only one couple from your church.

00:35:12.542 --> 00:35:15.942
<v Chris>Get into social relationships with people.

00:35:16.122 --> 00:35:22.102
<v Chris>Take a coworker out for lunch. Buy somebody a cup of coffee and use that time to do the listening.

00:35:22.322 --> 00:35:28.722
<v Chris>And then find ways to serve them, to engage them with some need in their life.

00:35:28.862 --> 00:35:34.242
<v Chris>And sometimes we tend to think of service in project basis rather than personal

00:35:34.242 --> 00:35:36.262
<v Chris>basis. Here's what I mean by that.

00:35:36.362 --> 00:35:41.862
<v Chris>We'll go out and we'll do a big project for ministering to homeless people or unhoused people.

00:35:42.142 --> 00:35:46.202
<v Chris>And that's wonderful. We should care for the poor and the indigent that are amongst us.

00:35:46.342 --> 00:35:49.562
<v Chris>Your next door neighbor, they may have a house. They may have a car.

00:35:49.682 --> 00:35:53.702
<v Chris>What they don't have is someone to go to the doctor's appointment with them,

00:35:53.742 --> 00:35:56.082
<v Chris>and they've got a scary diagnosis coming up.

00:35:56.402 --> 00:35:59.462
<v Chris>And maybe they share that. Your coworker shares that, says, hey,

00:35:59.602 --> 00:36:03.022
<v Chris>I got this doctor's appointment. I'm not sure what the outcome is going to be.

00:36:03.482 --> 00:36:07.422
<v Chris>Just ask them, hey, do you have anyone to go with you? I'll take off work for

00:36:07.422 --> 00:36:08.642
<v Chris>the afternoon and go with you.

00:36:09.180 --> 00:36:14.840
<v Chris>So that you don't have to be alone. Find ways to serve people where they are at.

00:36:14.980 --> 00:36:20.640
<v Chris>And they don't have to be people that are impoverished or uber needy,

00:36:20.820 --> 00:36:26.240
<v Chris>but they, all of us need to be served in different ways or encouraged in different ways.

00:36:26.460 --> 00:36:32.500
<v Chris>And then find ways to begin sharing the story of Jesus, the story of what Jesus

00:36:32.500 --> 00:36:34.680
<v Chris>has done for them, your story of Jesus.

00:36:35.020 --> 00:36:37.840
<v Chris>And through that, invite them into relationship.

00:36:38.540 --> 00:36:44.520
<v Chris>Don't make the first conversation you have with someone generally inviting them to church.

00:36:44.980 --> 00:36:51.180
<v Chris>Make that conversation happen out of the overflow of all of these other things

00:36:51.180 --> 00:36:55.000
<v Chris>that I've been talking about, where you're trying to build relationship.

00:36:55.220 --> 00:36:58.700
<v Chris>And I think if you have churches that are doing this, they're praying for lost

00:36:58.700 --> 00:37:01.620
<v Chris>people, they're listening to them, they're eating with them, they're serving,

00:37:01.780 --> 00:37:06.260
<v Chris>and as they're being given opportunities, They're sharing their story of how

00:37:06.260 --> 00:37:10.900
<v Chris>they encountered Jesus Christ or what Jesus has done in small ways.

00:37:11.080 --> 00:37:16.800
<v Chris>That becomes the place that then you can begin inviting people to come instead

00:37:16.800 --> 00:37:21.400
<v Chris>of depending on the church to be the primary way of presenting the gospel.

00:37:21.600 --> 00:37:29.220
<v Chris>You start by being a good neighbor where you are at. And I think that disconnection

00:37:29.220 --> 00:37:34.460
<v Chris>is what has caused so much challenge for so many of our churches.

00:37:34.640 --> 00:37:39.100
<v Chris>Our lost people aren't coming to our churches, even though our communities are

00:37:39.100 --> 00:37:41.460
<v Chris>overwhelmingly without a saving

00:37:41.460 --> 00:37:46.920
<v Chris>faith because church people aren't in relationship with lost people.

00:37:46.920 --> 00:37:55.160
<v Chase>That is huge. We had a burst of baptisms last year and a fair amount this year.

00:37:55.440 --> 00:37:58.820
<v Chase>Looking back, how did that happen?

00:37:59.000 --> 00:38:05.400
<v Chase>One of the key answers to that question is something so simple is that there were some people...

00:38:06.056 --> 00:38:11.696
<v Chase>At their work. In this particular instance, Home Depot, who built relationships.

00:38:11.936 --> 00:38:15.956
<v Chase>They didn't go to work saying, oh, I'm going to become friends with non-Christians

00:38:15.956 --> 00:38:18.076
<v Chase>so I can invite them to church and they'd be baptized.

00:38:18.336 --> 00:38:23.516
<v Chase>But they built relationships intentionally with people and eventually invited

00:38:23.516 --> 00:38:26.356
<v Chase>them to church and they eventually came to church.

00:38:26.596 --> 00:38:33.236
<v Chase>And as you say, we have to be neighbors and friends and in relationship with

00:38:33.236 --> 00:38:36.936
<v Chase>people, not like church used car salesmen.

00:38:37.076 --> 00:38:40.676
<v Chase>Like we don't go knock on a hundred doors or shake a hundred hands and say,

00:38:40.736 --> 00:38:41.996
<v Chase>hey, come to church with us.

00:38:42.116 --> 00:38:49.636
<v Chase>Sam Chan, who is a pastor, gives a great tip on how to kind of build a culture

00:38:49.636 --> 00:38:53.416
<v Chase>where the church people will invite other people.

00:38:53.576 --> 00:38:57.816
<v Chase>And he says, go to their things before inviting them to yours.

00:38:57.816 --> 00:39:02.436
<v Chase>He says, if we never go along to the things our non-Christian friends invite

00:39:02.436 --> 00:39:08.216
<v Chase>us to, but we expect them to come to our things, we're acting like Amway salesmen.

00:39:08.396 --> 00:39:13.516
<v Chase>It's awkward, it's embarrassing, and it's unlikely to work. So be a bro,

00:39:13.776 --> 00:39:18.276
<v Chase>be a dude, be a cool person, be a real genuine person.

00:39:18.576 --> 00:39:23.716
<v Chase>Get involved in these people's lives so that when you do invite them to church

00:39:23.716 --> 00:39:28.676
<v Chase>or when you do have a spiritual conversation with them, when you do bring up

00:39:28.676 --> 00:39:32.456
<v Chase>Jesus, it's not coming across like you're a salesperson.

00:39:32.456 --> 00:39:39.196
<v Chase>It's coming across like you're a follower of Jesus and you have a genuine concern for them. Yeah.

00:39:39.496 --> 00:39:40.436
<v Chris>Loving people.

00:39:41.147 --> 00:39:45.987
<v Chris>Is in fact what Jesus commended as the second and greatest commandment,

00:39:46.147 --> 00:39:49.067
<v Chris>right? Loving our neighbors as ourselves, genuinely.

00:39:49.487 --> 00:39:54.067
<v Chris>Sometimes we hear that and we think that Jesus is primarily talking about the church.

00:39:54.207 --> 00:39:58.747
<v Chris>And while I'm not saying the church shouldn't have a special place in the heart

00:39:58.747 --> 00:40:00.727
<v Chris>and mind and actions of the believers,

00:40:01.067 --> 00:40:05.587
<v Chris>the reality is those neighbors include people who vote differently than us,

00:40:05.727 --> 00:40:07.887
<v Chris>who think differently than us,

00:40:08.027 --> 00:40:14.027
<v Chris>who have different values, and who have a different moral commitment set and

00:40:14.027 --> 00:40:17.927
<v Chris>who have a different way of thinking about life.

00:40:18.187 --> 00:40:22.787
<v Chris>And they may even be followers of another religion. But when you can love your

00:40:22.787 --> 00:40:29.307
<v Chris>Hindu neighbor or your coworker that is LGBTQIA+,

00:40:29.307 --> 00:40:36.267
<v Chris>or you can engage someone who voted differently than you did in the last election,

00:40:36.267 --> 00:40:41.267
<v Chris>and they maybe have very high political opinions that are very different from yours,

00:40:41.587 --> 00:40:47.827
<v Chris>when you can love people like that, that love is something that the world is not used to seeing.

00:40:48.007 --> 00:40:51.427
<v Chris>And loving them in a way that does not mean you agree with them.

00:40:51.527 --> 00:40:56.627
<v Chris>It does not mean that you affirm them. It does not mean that you affirm their sin.

00:40:56.767 --> 00:41:00.467
<v Chris>But what it does mean is this, that you understand that all of us are sinners

00:41:00.467 --> 00:41:06.507
<v Chris>who are saved by the grace of the living God, and that each of us needs to be

00:41:06.507 --> 00:41:08.527
<v Chris>encountering the love of Jesus.

00:41:08.747 --> 00:41:12.507
<v Chris>And so when your commitment is, hey, I want to bring the love of Jesus Christ

00:41:12.507 --> 00:41:15.087
<v Chris>into my workplace, into my neighborhood.

00:41:15.707 --> 00:41:20.107
<v Chris>Into my gym, into the places that I go on the highways and byways of life,

00:41:20.227 --> 00:41:24.107
<v Chris>and I want to do it in a way that draws me into real relationship with lost people.

00:41:24.327 --> 00:41:30.707
<v Chris>That intentionality is huge in helping guide a church back to a place of flourishing,

00:41:31.200 --> 00:41:37.260
<v Chris>And praying that God will open those doors and looking to see where God may

00:41:37.260 --> 00:41:41.640
<v Chris>be at work, I think, is key to seeing some churches take some steps back towards

00:41:41.640 --> 00:41:43.120
<v Chris>that flourishing health.

00:41:43.940 --> 00:41:49.440
<v Chase>Absolutely. Chris, to close us out, do you have a good resource you can recommend? Yeah.

00:41:49.680 --> 00:41:53.880
<v Chris>You know, I think one of the resources that came to my mind when we were talking

00:41:53.880 --> 00:41:59.380
<v Chris>about this is that I find that so many of us, and maybe this is just me and

00:41:59.380 --> 00:42:01.240
<v Chris>the group of leaders that I hang out with,

00:42:01.540 --> 00:42:07.460
<v Chris>but very often one of the biggest challenges is that we don't have margin to do ministry.

00:42:07.460 --> 00:42:14.120
<v Chris>We spend so much of our life busily engaged with so many different kinds of activities.

00:42:14.240 --> 00:42:20.520
<v Chris>There's not a lot of margin with our time to go spend time having a barbecue with a lost person.

00:42:21.160 --> 00:42:25.080
<v Chris>Or we don't have time to go and have a prayer meeting.

00:42:25.200 --> 00:42:30.240
<v Chris>We're so busy doing life. So if you're a church leader that is overwhelmed with

00:42:30.240 --> 00:42:33.260
<v Chris>the busyness of life and you're trying to figure out,

00:42:33.260 --> 00:42:38.920
<v Chris>How can I find that margin in my life so that I can be more present with my

00:42:38.920 --> 00:42:41.240
<v Chris>family, more engaged with my community,

00:42:41.460 --> 00:42:45.160
<v Chris>more fully alive while I'm in worship together?

00:42:45.360 --> 00:42:48.680
<v Chris>There's an amazing little resource here. It's called Redeeming Your Time.

00:42:48.880 --> 00:42:52.800
<v Chris>It's by a business leader named Jordan Rayner, who is a believer,

00:42:52.920 --> 00:42:53.920
<v Chris>is a wonderful believer.

00:42:54.080 --> 00:42:58.780
<v Chris>He coaches a number of pastors on this very issue and other religious leaders.

00:42:58.780 --> 00:43:03.220
<v Chris>But Redeeming Your Time, it's just one of the best resources that I've come

00:43:03.220 --> 00:43:09.120
<v Chris>across in the past few years that has made a big impact on how I try to manage

00:43:09.120 --> 00:43:12.620
<v Chris>my schedule. How do I try to manage the tasks that I have?

00:43:12.840 --> 00:43:17.320
<v Chris>And how do I focus on stewarding the time that I have?

00:43:17.600 --> 00:43:20.960
<v Chris>And it's a wonderful encouragement to say, wow.

00:43:21.181 --> 00:43:26.321
<v Chris>Hey, we can't do everything. We are creatures. So we're going to have to make some choices.

00:43:26.601 --> 00:43:30.361
<v Chris>And one of the things I've learned from Jordan is that I have to make choices

00:43:30.361 --> 00:43:35.741
<v Chris>about what I'm going to invest in and therefore some things I'm not going to invest in.

00:43:35.881 --> 00:43:41.261
<v Chris>And then how do I use my time in ways that are not only efficient for efficiency's

00:43:41.261 --> 00:43:43.981
<v Chris>sake, but so that I can be more.

00:43:44.441 --> 00:43:48.161
<v Chris>Engaged with the people that I want to show the love of God to,

00:43:48.321 --> 00:43:52.621
<v Chris>whether that's my wife, my children, my family, or my co-workers?

00:43:52.841 --> 00:43:58.021
<v Chris>And also, how can I be more fruitful in the ministry, more flourishing with

00:43:58.021 --> 00:43:59.941
<v Chris>the ministry that God has given me?

00:44:00.021 --> 00:44:05.621
<v Chris>So I just wholeheartedly commend that wonderful little book that's easily available

00:44:05.621 --> 00:44:07.961
<v Chris>on Amazon and a lot of other places.

00:44:08.141 --> 00:44:11.941
<v Chris>I think it's got an audible version if you're a person that likes to listen to it.

00:44:12.241 --> 00:44:17.841
<v Chase>Jordan Rayner, Redeeming Your Time. Folks, you'll be able to find pretty much

00:44:17.841 --> 00:44:19.921
<v Chase>every resource we mentioned today,

00:44:20.161 --> 00:44:26.721
<v Chase>as well as transcript and show notes and graphics and all of those goodies at

00:44:26.721 --> 00:44:29.981
<v Chase>our website, everychurchflourishing.com.

00:44:30.221 --> 00:44:36.441
<v Chase>That's everychurchflourishing.com. And that'll be your home to subscribe to

00:44:36.441 --> 00:44:39.841
<v Chase>the show, share it with friends and read a transcript and see what we said,

00:44:39.981 --> 00:44:42.541
<v Chase>see what you missed and all of that kind of good stuff.

00:44:42.741 --> 00:44:45.681
<v Chase>Well, that is it for us for this episode.

00:44:46.001 --> 00:44:52.161
<v Chase>Join us next week as we further talk about how to make your church healthy and

00:44:52.161 --> 00:44:54.041
<v Chase>flourishing and doing well.

00:44:54.181 --> 00:44:58.041
<v Chase>And if you have questions for the show, just come to the website.

00:44:58.241 --> 00:45:02.681
<v Chase>There will be a place where you can record a question or you can send it through

00:45:02.681 --> 00:45:04.641
<v Chase>a message box. See you next time.