Oct. 4, 2026

Church Replanting, Church Revitalization, and Help For Struggling Churches with Bob Bickford. Culture Eats Strategy For Breakfast. + Dangers of Soda Racism.

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Every Church Flourishing 38 With Bob Bickford.

Title: Culture Eats Strategy For Breakfast. Church Replanting, Church Revitalization, and Help For Struggling Churches with Bob Bickford. FIND YOUR DOTTIES. The Dangers of Soda Racism.

If you don’t deal with your church’s problems because you don’t want people to leave, the truth is that people will leave BECAUSE you aren’t dealing with your church’s problems.

Put a gifted pastor in the wrong culture and that culture will eat him alive.

Culture is the hidden assumptions about the way things are.

Diagnosis is hard - how can churches know their health when they are scared to know their health? Why should church leaders embrace church diagnostics and health checks? Revitalization is largely good old pastoring.

Preach, pray, love, stay.

Help the congregation find the joy of the Lord again, and great things will happen.

How to move forward into revitalization when there is NOT unanimity.

Building trust and gaining trust before big changes are crucial for pastors and leaders.

It’s not one single issue that leads to decline in churches, it’s multiple things. There are older people in church replants that might start out a little bit sour, but if you befriend them, love them and pastor them well, they may turn into fruitful DOTTIES - (listen to Bob’s story at the end of this episode)

What are some neglected essentials to church revitalization?

Are there backward corners of Heaven? Is soda racism allowable? How Pastor Christopher’s soda prejudice has led to stomach and indigestion problems. The aftertaste is a little discouraging…

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Post-COVID, sometimes we're a little more nervous than we used to be.

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Maybe we don't want to step on the scale. Maybe we don't want to know our blood pressure.

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Maybe we don't want to know exactly how things are going. And that mentality

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can sometimes spread to the church.

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We know deep down there's problems, but maybe we're not quite willing to face up to them just yet.

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However, Bob Bickford, the head of the Nashville Baptist Association,

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is here today to help us walk through the process of diagnostics in your church

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and the great benefits of knowing

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that your church does need help.

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It's not necessarily a bad thing,

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Because… One of the things I think is honest conversation with the church about

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their true condition leads to the opportunity for,

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developing a dependence upon the Lord, and once we develop a dependence upon

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the Lord, then we're open to what the Lord wants to do.

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And the beautiful Redwoods. The Every Church Flourishing podcast is all about

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helping churches, leaders, and pastors find health, encouragement,

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practical advice, soul care, and resources that work together to build up your

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local fellowship and the broader kingdom of God.

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Join hosts, Pastor Chris Cole and Dr. Chase Thompson from the Great Commission

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Association, led by Dr. Mike Stewart, as they explore the frontiers of ministry

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and aim for the goal of making every church flourish.

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Hello, everybody, and welcome into episode number 38 of the Every Church Flourishing Podcast.

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Today, we've got Bob Bickford. He is the executive director of the Nashville Baptist Association.

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I am with my co-host, Pastor Christopher Cole of the Great Commission Association,

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and we are talking to Bob about church health.

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Bob, one of the things that strikes me is that in this day and age,

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maybe this has been a human reality for generations.

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I don't know. I've not been around for generations, but I know that post-COVID

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diagnosis is hard and people sometimes avoid it.

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They don't want to check their weight. They don't want to check their blood

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pressure. They don't want to necessarily check their bank accounts and their

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attendance trends and all of that.

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So they kind of, and often it's subconscious, they subconsciously avoid that

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diagnostic process from a sense of denial or fear of confronting the truth or whatever.

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So give us, I guess, some quick reasons why church leaders should embrace that

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diagnostic process and maybe ways to help get around those fear responses. Yeah.

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Yeah. Oh, man. I don't know that I have the complete answers for this,

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but let me talk out what I've been doing now.

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I think that we're getting ready to start a series on Nehemiah and the church

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that I'm the transitional intern in.

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And so when I go back and think about Nehemiah and some of the hallmarks of

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his leadership, I recall that he heard some news about the condition of his

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city that broke his heart.

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And he began to pray and began to be sorrowful over the condition of his city.

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And so one of the things I think is, in the church I'm leading,

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can I foster godly biblical sorrow over the condition of the church?

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And, you know, as we talk about the condition of the church,

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you know, this again, we're talking about in the life of the leader,

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Nehemiah, primarily right now.

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So then he takes a risk of faith to ask the king for basically a leave of absence

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and then all the resources he needs to do, all the things that he needs to do.

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So he trusts God for the resources. He trusts God. What's the next step?

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I think I'll ask the king. Can you give me resources? It's a risk.

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Because Nehemiah basically is the safety blanket for the king,

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right? He's the cupbearer, right? So he drinks the king's wine and if he dies,

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he's done. But if he lives, he's, you know.

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He's golden. And so basically he's trusted. And so he says, hey,

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I want to, I'm going to take a risk here. I need a leave of absence.

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So then he gets that. He gets the resources.

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Then he shows up to the city that he loves and he walks around.

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He doesn't tell anybody what he's going to do. Doesn't unpack it all,

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but just rides around the city at night and looks at it and then comes up with

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an idea and a strategy based on all those things.

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But it started with this, this sense of brokenness and dependence upon the Lord

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for success that leads to a strategy for what to do.

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So one of the things I think is honest conversation with the church about their

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true condition leads to the opportunity for developing a dependence upon the Lord.

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And once we develop a dependence, then we're open to what the Lord wants to

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do, and then we'll follow the ways of the Lord.

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So those are some things that when you ask that question that came to my mind.

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And so I think developing that among the people just takes being among them,

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pastoring them well, teaching them God's word, listening to them,

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trying to develop a sense of brokenness and dependence, but also hopefulness, right?

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And so one of the things I'm constantly doing in the,

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church that I'm transitional interim in is they used to be 800.

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They're down to like 140 right now, 80,000 square foot building.

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And so it was like, you know, 30 plus years ago is when they were in their heyday.

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And man, we see something good. We just celebrate it. Oh my gosh.

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Look, we have this wonderful service.

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People are excited. People are smiling. Look, people are staying after the service.

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We had a mission share service. And man, it was crazy. Like all the different

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groups, VBS, Kids Camp, Youth Camp, Brazil Mission Trip, everybody shared.

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It was like this, this monstrous service and videos and testimony also.

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So from a pastor standpoint, I'm having the air traffic control and,

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you know, all this kind of stuff.

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And it was very stressful for me. And then somebody went along.

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And so the devotional that I was going to share got reduced to like maybe two

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and a half minutes. And then I had to do the Lord's Supper and all this kind

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of stuff. So I'm watching all this go down.

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And instead of being wound up and stressed by that, I was just saying,

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Lord, this is a beautiful picture of the life that still is in this church.

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Let's celebrate that. Let's get them to focus on that. Let's talk about the joy.

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And then when I was walking out, I was like talking to everybody.

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Man, didn't you see it? Wasn't it great today? We do have so many good things

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today. Wasn't it great to see kids on the stage singing? Wasn't it great to hear the testimonies?

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All that concern. So I think if you can take that approach where you're helping

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the congregation find the joy of the Lord again, man, you'd see some really good things happen.

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And it doesn't matter that the Sunday was chaotic and wouldn't be written about

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by the best outreach magazine on how to do a service and this and that and the other.

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But I think that's just good old pastoring and loving people and celebrating

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and just rolling with what you got.

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And I think when you relax and you celebrate the small things that the Lord

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is doing, I think the people pick up on that and they get excited too.

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So there's a culture of joy in our church right now that the church and I'm

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transitional interim in, a culture of joy and anticipation about what God's going to do.

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You just develop that by being hopeful and being dependent upon the Lord.

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And so I think I tweeted out the other day that, you know, some revitalization

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is really just largely good old pastoring and loving people.

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And that gives us all hope because we're not, I'm not the guy that's going to

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plant a church and explode it to, you know, a thousand. That's not who I am.

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But I can laugh with the old ladies, shake hands, instill hope,

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love the kids, high-five the kids, fist bump the kids.

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I can do that, right? And I can believe that God's faithful and going to answer

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his word and our prayers and that he loves the church even more than I do.

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Amen.

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So there is so much good in what you just shared there, Bob.

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I think of the slogan or the tagline that at least used to be used by the Replant

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team. I'm not sure how current it is. The idea of preach, pray, love, stay.

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So much just core level pastoring there that's involved in the work of replanting.

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I want to maybe go a little bit of an additional layer down.

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You've talked about how falling attendance, financial pressure,

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the aging membership, the declining facilities, the decline in,

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hey, we haven't had baptisms in 20 years, which just getting churches to acknowledge and own that

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can be really problematic.

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But those are largely symptoms rather than causes, is what you've been saying.

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They're the what's, not the why's.

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And that important process of unpacking the why's, things that you just mentioned

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like deficient discipleship, failure to address conflict, those long-term historical

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practices in the church can be that.

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But you want to lead the church into a place where they have hope.

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I was thinking as you were sharing that,

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about the old aphorism that's attributed to Peter Drucker, the idea that culture eats strategy.

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So you're a replanter, you're a lead guy, you're trying to lead a church through

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a renewal, or you're a lay leader, and you're like, hey, we need to be renewed.

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And you're trying to come up with practical answers and strategic components.

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The problem that we often run into is a buzzsaw of reality called culture, right?

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And last week I got to hang out with wonderful NAMM friend of ours,

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Pastor Gus Hernandez, helping plant reality Miami right now.

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He said something I've just been thinking about, and he said culture is often

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made up of, and I'm paraphrasing, this is not perfect, but culture is the hidden

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Assumptions that we believe about the way things just are.

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Hidden assumptions about the way things just are.

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And ever since then, I've been thinking about that in terms of church renewal.

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And what are the hidden assumptions? Like, what's the shadow mission that's

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taken over from discipleship, for example?

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Is it, hey, our church just needs to survive? That's the hidden assumption there, right?

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Or what's the power of the church?

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What's our actual hope? It's in that $100,000 rainy day fund that we've got

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stashed away in the bank account that we never, ever touch or something like that.

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So as we think about maybe that concept, maybe you could help us think through

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how does a replanter or church renewal system.

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You know, leader, how do they help the church identify those hidden assumptions

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that create the culture that's going to take out the best laid plans and the best strategy?

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That's a great question. A great phrase, too. I think what came to my mind is

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asking good questions and listening to the responses, because people will tell

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you what the culture is like, right, if you ask the right questions or if you ask any questions.

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So like you could say, man, how do church announcements get made?

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Who decides? And then they might say, well, nobody knows.

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I think somebody makes a decision somewhere. And okay, because you might be

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a new pastor, and then all of a sudden you're like, that was a weird announcement

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for a tomato fest three towns over.

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Hey, how do announcements get made? And they tell you, well,

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I'm not quite sure, but I think Bill does that. And then you go,

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hey, Bill, how do announcements get made? He goes, well, there's not much going

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on, so I'm looking for something all the time. And then of saying,

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well, tell me about this tomato thing.

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Well, it's like my cousin who's a pastor in this community does this tomato

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thing, right? So what did you, you just like, oh my gosh, okay,

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we found this out, right?

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But there's deeper ones that are less administrative and more consequential.

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Like, why is this church so afraid,

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conflict, right? Or you might say this, why is this church, it seems like some

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people are afraid to take risks,

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and make bold decisions. Tell me about that. Am I reading that right?

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Well, yeah. You know, one time we tried to change the time that Sunday school

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met and like people got mad and left the church.

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Right? So you're noticing and you're naming. You're noticing it and then you're

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naming it and then you're drawing it out into a question.

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Yeah. And I think the story tells you the pain point that describes the response

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that creates the culture.

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So, you know, we don't deal with our problems because we don't want people to leave.

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Well, the truth of that is people will leave because you don't deal with your

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pain points and your problem.

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Right?

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Sometimes it is a culture that the leader creates, right? I mean,

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we all as leaders hate this when somebody rolls in and says this.

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Well, if you've been somewhere five years, the place is like you are,

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Like you, you are, it's, it's who you are, right? It's the culture you've created. Right.

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And I just pulled five years as a marketer. I don't know. I mean,

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but the longer you're there, the more the culture is like you.

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I think you can't pin culture on somebody who's been there a year or two years. Right.

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But three to five years, the culture is probably becoming like you.

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So if it's a particular way, it's either you or you're something you're allowing. We'll say that.

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That's a good way to put it.

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Because I think, too, Chris, what I would say is we put the right leader,

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we can find the right leader, the right pastor, a godly pastor, a gifted pastor.

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We can put him in the wrong culture, and the culture will destroy that pastor.

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And so it's not always just the pastor's issue and leadership.

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Sometimes it is the bad system. It is the bad culture. It's unhealthy,

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unbiblical culture where sin has become embedded.

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And so I think it's a little complex, but I think you ask good questions,

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you think about it, you make reflections, you ask follow-up questions,

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and you try to unearth why is the church the way it is and tell me the stories. What happened?

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Yeah, that's so good. Yeah, I think getting into those core level questions

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is something that I, as when I was a young pastor trying to replant,

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renew a church, I was seeing all the things that were broken.

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And I made this assumption that other people wanted those things fixed.

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After all, they were coming to my office and saying things like,

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hey, pastor, we need to we need to grow the church. We need more kids in the

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nursery. And I'm like, all right, let's go do it.

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What I wasn't realizing was that there was a whole culture that had been designed

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against the very things that they stated that they wanted.

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And there were all kinds of not just strategic or methodological realities,

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there were cultural realities

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about the way they made decisions, about the things they were afraid of,

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about the things that they really loved, which

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was comfort and complacency and doing church the way it had been. And they're real.

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Pressure point was they were like, why can't we just do the church that we like

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and have more people come with the leaders doing what we want them to do?

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And so it's those kinds of cultural realities that I think so often end up dominating

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the entire renewal process. And

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The church planner, the church renewers, he's coming out and he's like,

00:15:28.319 --> 00:15:32.309
I'm bringing right doctrine, I'm bringing right truths, I'm trying to lead the

00:15:32.309 --> 00:15:35.169
people spiritually, and we're going to be on mission for Jesus.

00:15:35.169 --> 00:15:39.779
And they've made the assumption that that's actually what the church wants,

00:15:40.023 --> 00:15:44.569
when in reality, their deepest desires are for other things.

00:15:44.569 --> 00:15:48.229
And that often shapes that culture. And I think, I guess that's what I would

00:15:48.229 --> 00:15:54.099
just add as perhaps an additional question is really trying to drill down into

00:15:54.099 --> 00:15:58.675
what is it that people actually really want?

00:15:59.659 --> 00:16:06.659
What's the heart desire that's prevailing against this other desire that they may have?

00:16:06.659 --> 00:16:10.979
They may hold them in a complex relationship of desire where they're saying,

00:16:10.979 --> 00:16:16.658
yeah, I really want to reach my neighbor, but really what I want more is to not be uncomfortable.

00:16:16.984 --> 00:16:21.800
Or have to change. And those kinds of things can just eat us when we're trying

00:16:21.800 --> 00:16:26.040
to lead a church through change. And you're going, well, what's wrong with these people?

00:16:26.168 --> 00:16:28.760
I'm giving them what they asked for, what they wanted, right?

00:16:28.760 --> 00:16:31.033
I mean, they called me to do this.

00:16:31.340 --> 00:16:34.293
And so often, I think that becomes a reality. Pastor Chase.

00:16:34.537 --> 00:16:38.281
All right, let's talk about, this will probably be my last question.

00:16:38.432 --> 00:16:42.870
I think it's a very important thing to wrestle with. A lot of the people that

00:16:42.870 --> 00:16:46.620
would be listening to this are Baptist churches, congregational churches.

00:16:46.620 --> 00:16:50.590
There's going to be voting and that sort of thing. And you talk about in your

00:16:50.590 --> 00:16:59.666
article that readiness to move forward doesn't necessarily require 100% approval or unanimity.

00:16:59.904 --> 00:17:05.820
But you also kind of warned that taking a vote about change and renewal and

00:17:05.820 --> 00:17:13.314
replanting too early on can cause really difficult resistance and

00:17:13.610 --> 00:17:15.450
division and all of that kind of thing.

00:17:15.450 --> 00:17:21.210
So how can leaders recognize when it's time to vote, when it's time to make

00:17:21.210 --> 00:17:25.370
a decision and how, how do they handle that whole, you know,

00:17:25.810 --> 00:17:28.343
well, we're at 90% approval, but not a hundred percent.

00:17:28.593 --> 00:17:31.750
How do they navigate those difficult waters?

00:17:32.670 --> 00:17:37.970
Almost no decision in the church, especially a really good, strong decision

00:17:37.970 --> 00:17:40.828
is going to be a hundred percent.

00:17:41.229 --> 00:17:47.237
So, so how do leaders navigate those kinds of issues, especially in congregational churches, Bob?

00:17:47.365 --> 00:17:52.890
Yeah. Just to borrow a practical example, a lot of new pastors or new,

00:17:52.890 --> 00:17:56.900
new to a church pastor or replanter, they come in and they, they look at the

00:17:56.900 --> 00:17:59.990
bylaws and they want to change the bylaws immediately.

00:17:59.990 --> 00:18:05.370
Right. So let's say it's a primarily a congregational church and there's varieties

00:18:05.370 --> 00:18:09.743
of congregationalism, right? There's, We vote on everything, congregationalism.

00:18:09.981 --> 00:18:13.370
We vote on the most important things and a few things, congregationalism.

00:18:13.370 --> 00:18:15.838
And some churches are somewhere in between.

00:18:16.274 --> 00:18:23.002
Most of the time, the bylaws are in a declining church if they've been adopted and amended over time.

00:18:23.216 --> 00:18:28.689
They've been amended to handle difficulties that have come up in the church,

00:18:28.689 --> 00:18:31.529
to rules against this or that, right?

00:18:31.529 --> 00:18:36.758
And so, in terms of governance, you may see some inefficiencies and ineffective,

00:18:37.211 --> 00:18:38.981
ways of making decisions.

00:18:39.382 --> 00:18:42.899
Or you bring something like, you know, the bylaws, which is let's vote on the

00:18:42.899 --> 00:18:45.326
way we vote on things, right?

00:18:45.553 --> 00:18:50.589
And it's your third month in, the people don't know who you are and you don't

00:18:50.589 --> 00:18:55.819
have a level of trust where they know that you're a faithful shepherd that listens

00:18:55.819 --> 00:18:59.955
to the congregation and that won't make rash decisions, right?

00:19:00.199 --> 00:19:06.719
And so a premature vote is a vote that you're pretty sure will barely pass or

00:19:06.719 --> 00:19:10.677
you might not get it to pass, right? So what do you do?

00:19:11.699 --> 00:19:16.489
Is changing the bylaws the most important thing? Maybe. maybe not,

00:19:16.489 --> 00:19:18.682
is building trust and gaining trust.

00:19:19.123 --> 00:19:23.513
And helping people see that decisions are going to be based in God's Word and

00:19:23.513 --> 00:19:28.299
based on the Spirit's leadership and a sense of the leaders and being in unity.

00:19:28.485 --> 00:19:34.377
If you can get there, people will relax a little bit more and they'll be ready for some things.

00:19:34.627 --> 00:19:39.383
And so when we rush a vote, we probably want the headaches to go away and we

00:19:39.383 --> 00:19:41.384
want life to be easier for us.

00:19:41.622 --> 00:19:46.703
And that's not the primary driver. It should not be the primary driver for addressing

00:19:46.703 --> 00:19:48.503
something that needs a congregational vote.

00:19:48.503 --> 00:19:54.313
Now, sometimes you face emergencies and let's say your thresholds of financial

00:19:54.313 --> 00:19:58.874
approval are low and you need a piece of equipment or you need something like

00:19:59.083 --> 00:20:00.223
shepherding people through that.

00:20:00.223 --> 00:20:06.813
But what I was referring to mainly here was the idea of trying to set a long-lasting

00:20:06.813 --> 00:20:11.564
directional decision for a church in a manner that's too premature, right?

00:20:11.715 --> 00:20:16.040
Because you haven't earned the right to be trusted and you haven't earned the right to lead.

00:20:16.167 --> 00:20:19.110
I forget which pastor told me this, but somewhere along the way,

00:20:19.337 --> 00:20:24.223
he said, why don't you lead as though the bylaws are changed in your mind the

00:20:24.223 --> 00:20:26.115
way you want them to be in this sense?

00:20:26.364 --> 00:20:32.163
Lead confidently, lead biblically, and stop feeling like you have to ask permission

00:20:32.163 --> 00:20:36.533
for everything, but adopt the posture of, I'm going to lead this church faithfully

00:20:36.533 --> 00:20:40.865
forward and do that, right? And lead towards that.

00:20:41.098 --> 00:20:44.443
Don't lead from a place of, I have to get permission to do everything.

00:20:44.443 --> 00:20:49.783
Because I think what can happen is, and I have a pastor that is wrestling with

00:20:49.783 --> 00:20:55.243
this, had a situation in his church where a guy did some work for the church

00:20:55.243 --> 00:20:57.026
that they thought was going to be volunteer.

00:20:57.247 --> 00:21:00.613
And then the guy said, no, actually, I was hoping to get paid.

00:21:00.613 --> 00:21:04.817
And they never had a signed agreement. So it was just a disaster.

00:21:05.061 --> 00:21:08.236
And so I was like, well, what did you do?

00:21:08.474 --> 00:21:13.033
And he's like, well, I brought it to the deacons and the deacons voted on what

00:21:13.033 --> 00:21:14.674
we should do. And I said, well, what did they vote to do?

00:21:14.906 --> 00:21:18.122
He said, well, it was split right down the middle. Some didn't want to pay him and some did.

00:21:18.693 --> 00:21:23.133
So what'd you do? He goes, we ended up paying him. I was like, oh my gosh.

00:21:24.031 --> 00:21:27.478
Okay, so you voted on something that you'd had no unity on.

00:21:27.734 --> 00:21:31.884
And so the process was messed up. The decision making was messed up.

00:21:32.116 --> 00:21:36.035
And yeah, they were divided on what they should do.

00:21:36.220 --> 00:21:40.709
And so I said, man, at that point, you probably put a pause on that because

00:21:40.709 --> 00:21:43.349
you didn't have a, the guy didn't bill you didn't have an invoice,

00:21:43.349 --> 00:21:45.061
you didn't have any legal obligation to pay him.

00:21:45.305 --> 00:21:47.979
And maybe you could have walked away from that for a couple of days and then

00:21:47.979 --> 00:21:50.164
come back to it and said, you know, what do we need to do?

00:21:50.390 --> 00:21:53.779
But I think there was a pattern that was developing a permission getting that

00:21:53.779 --> 00:21:55.621
wasn't required in the culture.

00:21:56.114 --> 00:22:00.879
And so I think undoing that, you might have to make some decisions where you

00:22:00.879 --> 00:22:03.968
just do some things and people who are used to voting on everything go,

00:22:04.613 --> 00:22:06.366
why did you have the right to make that decision?

00:22:06.534 --> 00:22:08.949
It's like, what do you mean? You know, let's have a conversation about it.

00:22:08.949 --> 00:22:12.519
Well, we'd have to vote on everything, you know, or this is so important that

00:22:12.519 --> 00:22:16.165
we want to make sure everybody's on the same page. Right. And we want to do that.

00:22:16.408 --> 00:22:20.275
So that one's hard, right? But I think the sense is.

00:22:21.256 --> 00:22:26.299
If you have a vote that doesn't pass, and we see this in the super majority

00:22:26.299 --> 00:22:30.189
requirements of some of our bylaws, right, in terms of convention and domination

00:22:30.189 --> 00:22:33.996
and church, there's some decisions that we said there has to be enough of a majority,

00:22:35.006 --> 00:22:39.174
to say yes to this thing or no to this thing in order for it to be so.

00:22:39.430 --> 00:22:43.979
And so I always heard you need to have a pretty good idea about when you take

00:22:43.979 --> 00:22:48.102
something that's really important directionally or in the life of the body to a church.

00:22:48.340 --> 00:22:52.886
You need to have a pretty good idea about the way the vote's going to go as much as you can.

00:22:53.130 --> 00:22:56.804
And so I think don't rush a vote just because you want a thing,

00:22:57.036 --> 00:23:01.257
but do rush a vote if it's an emergency thing, like if you've got to vote on it, right?

00:23:01.500 --> 00:23:05.259
And so I think you have to depend on the spirit's wisdom, the scriptures,

00:23:05.259 --> 00:23:09.669
and then the leaders around you or a mentor or a coach to help you understand,

00:23:09.669 --> 00:23:12.936
man, do I take this to a boat? So hopefully that helped in some way.

00:23:13.163 --> 00:23:13.702
Yes.

00:23:14.199 --> 00:23:18.776
It's hard to do a blanket, here's how to handle boats, without like a specific...

00:23:19.541 --> 00:23:22.917
I might go another way on it, depending on the specificity of this.

00:23:22.917 --> 00:23:26.447
Yeah, awesome. That's some good insight. So I think Pastor Christopher has one

00:23:26.447 --> 00:23:31.407
more closing question, and then we might just ask you for an exit story that

00:23:31.407 --> 00:23:35.527
will encourage the potential church replanders that are listening.

00:23:35.527 --> 00:23:36.403
Go ahead, Pastor Christopher.

00:23:36.636 --> 00:23:42.747
So, Bob, I'm going to stir up a little bit, potentially a little bit of controversy here at the end.

00:23:43.127 --> 00:23:50.144
And since I've got you as the guest, and I know that Bob is not afraid of controversy, seat here. So,

00:23:51.108 --> 00:23:56.368
We don't know. Chase might even end up having to cut this one from our recording

00:23:56.368 --> 00:23:57.998
here, but we're going to ask it anyway.

00:23:57.998 --> 00:24:03.568
So one of the as an old guy, as an old guy who's been around doing this,

00:24:03.568 --> 00:24:05.748
this work of renewal for a long season.

00:24:05.748 --> 00:24:10.848
And one of the things that's been so encouraging to me is to see through some

00:24:10.848 --> 00:24:16.528
emphases in some of our SBC seminaries, a strong emphasis on

00:24:16.868 --> 00:24:25.088
right doctrine, faithful preaching of the word, earnest prayer, healthy ecclesiology

00:24:25.468 --> 00:24:26.610
of the church.

00:24:26.836 --> 00:24:30.087
And I celebrate all of those things.

00:24:30.336 --> 00:24:37.198
But I get into interviews and discussions and dialogues with so many young replanters

00:24:37.453 --> 00:24:41.188
that say, these things are essential for healthy long-term church renewal.

00:24:41.188 --> 00:24:44.553
And I say yes and amen to all of that.

00:24:44.791 --> 00:24:50.160
And then I've come to the place recently where I say, but they are not sufficient.

00:24:50.393 --> 00:24:53.022
They are necessary, but they are not sufficient.

00:24:53.266 --> 00:24:58.808
You're preaching on Sunday morning the right doctrine, the right way, your church being

00:24:59.448 --> 00:25:04.408
In healthy prayer, getting the ecclesiology of the church right,

00:25:04.408 --> 00:25:08.928
getting your nine or 12 marks set up, whatever it is

00:25:09.368 --> 00:25:15.691
that you've got, that that's actually insufficient for long-term healthy change.

00:25:15.934 --> 00:25:20.908
And we've been sort of developing this idea of an ecology, what's needed for

00:25:21.268 --> 00:25:26.508
a holistic ecology of renewal. And we might do a future podcast,

00:25:26.508 --> 00:25:29.777
may invite you back on to reflect with us some on this.

00:25:31.002 --> 00:25:35.282
There are other critical things. Does the church have a united,

00:25:35.282 --> 00:25:37.237
clear sense of their mission?

00:25:37.470 --> 00:25:42.372
Do they have strategic outreach plans that are effective and evaluated on a

00:25:42.372 --> 00:25:46.333
regular basis to reach their particular community?

00:25:46.559 --> 00:25:51.801
What's their disciple-making pathway? Do they have a disciple- making pathway?

00:25:52.822 --> 00:25:59.314
I've been told by pastors, like, the most important disciple-making I could do is on Sunday morning.

00:25:59.982 --> 00:26:05.983
And there's a sense in which I go, yes, but also no, right?

00:26:06.227 --> 00:26:10.922
And, you know, questions about like, do you have honest and effective stewardship?

00:26:10.922 --> 00:26:13.048
What's your partnership level like?

00:26:13.622 --> 00:26:18.102
Who are you developing? Who are you multiplying into? These kinds of things,

00:26:18.102 --> 00:26:24.384
I think, are all necessary components to fit into that ecology of renewal.

00:26:24.512 --> 00:26:28.822
So I might have just, even in my statement just now, really upset some folks

00:26:28.822 --> 00:26:33.262
that are like, nope, it's the preaching of the word. It's the prayer of the

00:26:33.262 --> 00:26:37.503
people that are just, that's it. That's all. You don't need to add to that.

00:26:37.689 --> 00:26:41.921
But I think of even some of our renewed gurus like Mark Clifton,

00:26:42.159 --> 00:26:46.600
who boldly says in Reclaiming Glory, look, if you can't disciple one guy one-on-one

00:26:46.774 --> 00:26:51.070
and develop him into a leader, you have no business replanting a church, right?

00:26:51.215 --> 00:26:56.982
So here's the question to Bob Bickford, what are some of those things that you

00:26:56.982 --> 00:27:03.372
would say are neglected essentials that we, yeah, we've got the preaching of

00:27:03.372 --> 00:27:04.955
the word, we've got the prayer,

00:27:06.582 --> 00:27:12.570
We're moving towards healthy ecclesiology, but you go, man, I'm just not seeing

00:27:13.402 --> 00:27:20.012
the replanters or renew guys hitting these things as well as perhaps as much

00:27:20.012 --> 00:27:22.781
as they should. Or maybe you just disagree with me, which is fine too.

00:27:23.008 --> 00:27:23.662
No, I mean, I think...

00:27:24.283 --> 00:27:28.572
I don't disagree with you. I think you've enumerated a number of things in addition

00:27:28.572 --> 00:27:33.102
to preaching and praying and discipleship pathways and outreach and all those sorts of things.

00:27:33.482 --> 00:27:38.232
I think what I might add to that to not dilute some of the things you use,

00:27:38.482 --> 00:27:43.498
the thing that I think is glaringly absent in a lot of healthy churches,

00:27:44.147 --> 00:27:48.762
is what we would call restorative discipleship or church discipline.

00:27:49.250 --> 00:27:54.707
And so a culture that, as you said, so I'll ground that in scripture.

00:27:55.206 --> 00:28:00.588
So Colossians 1, 28 and 29 has always been like just my bedrock replant verse.

00:28:00.906 --> 00:28:04.047
So, you know, Paul writes about his ministry, him we proclaim.

00:28:04.285 --> 00:28:07.962
So he says, him we proclaim, warning and teaching everyone with all wisdom that

00:28:07.962 --> 00:28:09.792