Church Friendships: The Loneliness Crisis in Ministry + 10 Resurrection Quotes for Easter Sermons and C.S. Lewis on Do Pets Go to Heaven?! With Dr. Michael Stewart, Pastor Grant Combs and Dr. Chris Smith

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<v Speaker0>Leaders and pastors find health, encouragement, practical advice,

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<v Speaker0>soul care, and resources that work together to build up your local fellowship

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<v Speaker0>and the broader kingdom of God.

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<v Speaker0>Join hosts, Pastor Chris Cole

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<v Speaker0>and Dr. Chase Thompson from the Great Commission Association, led by Dr.

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<v Speaker0>Mike Stewart, as they explore the frontiers of ministry and aim for the goal

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<v Speaker0>of making every church flourish.

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<v Speaker0>And welcome into episode number 10 of the Every Church Flourishing Podcast by

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<v Speaker0>the Great Commission Association of California. Our website is everychurchflourishing.com.

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<v Speaker0>And today we have a great roundtable of guests for you, including Great Commission

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<v Speaker0>Association Director Dr.

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<v Speaker0>Michael Stewart, Seaside, California Pastor Grant Combs, and former missionary

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<v Speaker0>pastor and current president of the Great Commission Training Institution, Dr.

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<v Speaker0>Chris Smith. And in today's roundtable, We're going to discuss relationships

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<v Speaker0>in the church and hit on some really important and deep questions.

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<v Speaker0>Can pastors have real friendships with church members?

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<v Speaker0>How are deep-rooted friendships made in the church?

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<v Speaker0>There's a combination of factors that work together to keep pastors isolated.

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<v Speaker0>How can pastors and church leaders guard against that?

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<v Speaker0>We're also going to have 10 great resurrection quotes for your Easter sermon.

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<v Speaker0>Coming up this week, and we're going to hear from C.S. Lewis on whether or not

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<v Speaker0>our beloved pets go to heaven.

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<v Speaker0>Yes, he has an opinion on that, and yes, he actually makes a really profound case that they do.

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<v Speaker0>We're also going to be talking about the loneliness epidemic among pastors and

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<v Speaker0>church leaders and about how pastors, generally men,

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<v Speaker0>don't admit their problems and pains very easily, and they usually just hero

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<v Speaker0>up and pretend like everything is fine.

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<v Speaker0>When they are actually starved for deep friendships and relationships.

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<v Speaker0>And we're going to close out with a delicious soda review.

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<v Speaker0>So we had a bit of a technical glitch on our introductions to the roundtable panel today.

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<v Speaker0>I'm going to go ahead and introduce our guests now. The first voice you're going to hear will be Dr.

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<v Speaker0>Chris Smith, who, like I said, leads the Great Commission Training Institution,

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<v Speaker0>which is a mobile ministry-based school that focuses on training pastors and

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<v Speaker0>church leaders in both theology and practical ministry through some really excellent online classes.

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<v Speaker0>After that, you're going to hear from Grant Combs, who has pastored Lighthouse

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<v Speaker0>Baptist Church in Seaside for the past 11 years and is a 25-year resident of

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<v Speaker0>the beautiful Monterey Peninsula.

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<v Speaker0>And joining me on this episode and the next is co-host, as you've already heard,

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<v Speaker0>is Dr. Michael Stewart, the president of the GCA.

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<v Speaker0>And that GCA, Great Commission Association, is a group of nearly 100 Baptist

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<v Speaker0>churches that stretch from San Francisco down to Santa Barbara.

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<v Speaker0>In other words, from the setting of the detective TV show Monk all the way down

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<v Speaker0>to the setting of the detective TV show Psych.

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<v Speaker0>And there has been rumors that both Sean Spencer and Adrian Monk come to Dr.

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<v Speaker0>Stewart for both crime-fighting advice and other counseling,

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<v Speaker0>but honestly, I've been unable to verify those rumors to this point. Maybe...

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<v Speaker0>We will cover that in a future interview. But for now, let's dive into a very

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<v Speaker0>fun but also very revealing roundtable discussion.

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<v Speaker0>So right now, we have a roundtable. We're going to talk a little bit about the

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<v Speaker0>loneliness epidemic among pastors and church leaders.

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<v Speaker0>We're joined by GCA head Dr. Mike Stewart, also Dr.

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<v Speaker0>Chris Smith, and Pastor Grant Combs, all from the Central California area.

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<v Speaker0>Guys, I have some really alarming statistics that we need to talk through and

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<v Speaker0>kind of weigh the implications of.

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<v Speaker0>There are approximately, according to the Barna Group, two-thirds of pastors

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<v Speaker0>right now, 65% say that they have significant, regular, ongoing feelings of

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<v Speaker0>loneliness and isolation.

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<v Speaker0>And that is a big increase just in the last 11 years.

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<v Speaker0>In 2015, it was 42%. Now it's 65%.

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<v Speaker0>And same thing from 2015 to 2023,

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<v Speaker0>the percentage of pastors who feel like they have true friends was at 34% in

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<v Speaker0>2015, and it's now 19% in 2023.

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<v Speaker0>So those are scary statistics. Some of that is obviously the pandemic,

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<v Speaker0>but they're also, people are saying that even Even post-pandemic,

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<v Speaker0>their loneliness is increasing among church leaders and pastors.

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<v Speaker0>What do you guys think explains that? Part of it is, as a pastor,

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<v Speaker0>you are limited in what kind of friends that you can have sometimes,

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<v Speaker0>because some pastors where, to even the connection with other pastors, you

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<v Speaker0>They don't have those relationships. They're very busy with their family or their church.

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<v Speaker0>And it's difficult, it's complicated to have relationships, like close relationships,

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<v Speaker0>with people within the church. So I think that's a big part of it.

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<v Speaker0>So they feel disconnected, they feel lonely, because they, without not being

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<v Speaker0>in their immediate circle, the people around them, And those natural people

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<v Speaker0>that you would connect with at like a workplace, it makes it more difficult.

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<v Speaker0>I just think it's a really important topic. I think some of it is expectations.

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<v Speaker0>We all kind of start thinking that we are going to like build community in a

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<v Speaker0>church and big ideas about connecting. And I use the word family a lot. Yeah.

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<v Speaker0>The truth is, probably organizationally, the pastor cares about the church a

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<v Speaker0>lot more than most of the people that attend the church.

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<v Speaker0>And so you say, man, I'm going to pour my whole life into this.

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<v Speaker0>And for a large number of people, it's just where they go to church,

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<v Speaker0>which is no small thing. It's a really important thing.

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<v Speaker0>But as far as like lasting and deep friendships, we don't have a lot of the

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<v Speaker0>same avenues that other people have.

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<v Speaker0>Dr. Chris, you just mentioned like work friends. Like, that's not really a thing.

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<v Speaker0>I think that's a big part of it, too, is that there's a lot of us that are just alone in our offices.

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<v Speaker0>There's not a lot of staff around. There's not a lot of support staff.

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<v Speaker0>There's not a lot of peers at work. Everybody around here either volunteers for you or works for you.

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<v Speaker0>And so to have peers, it's pretty uncommon. And you add that with like, we're so transitory.

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<v Speaker0>Like, I just think maybe 50 or 100 years ago, you got to shepherd the same people

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<v Speaker0>and build relationships over generations.

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<v Speaker0>Like you did weddings and dedicated babies and then did funerals for grandma

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<v Speaker0>and grandpa. And you really were part of the family where, you know,

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<v Speaker0>I think for most of us, even with good, healthy churches, people come and go.

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<v Speaker0>And like, there's no faking deep friendship. It takes years to nurture.

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<v Speaker0>And, you know, many of us have moved from our hometowns to take church.

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<v Speaker0>Oh, I'll follow Jesus anywhere. And that's awesome. And you should.

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<v Speaker0>But when you follow Jesus anywhere, your high school friends aren't going to be there.

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<v Speaker0>And so I do think a big part of it is we want to be people who make healthy

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<v Speaker0>places where people can make friends.

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<v Speaker0>But I don't read a lot of chapters in marriage books about friendship.

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<v Speaker0>I don't read a lot of chapters in ministry helps about friendship.

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<v Speaker0>And the whole thing really has to revolve around, like, do you have some pals?

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<v Speaker0>You know, I don't even know if we think about elder boards, deacon boards as,

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<v Speaker0>man, these should be friend groups, too.

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<v Speaker0>You should be connecting at a heart level. And I've said it a lot.

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<v Speaker0>Like, it's the one thing that I knew ministry life would be hard.

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<v Speaker0>I didn't know that loneliness was going

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<v Speaker0>to be part of it and it absolutely has

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<v Speaker0>been so I don't know that as you know I'm in my 50s now

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<v Speaker0>but I don't know as a mid-20s guy answering a call to ministry I knew it was

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<v Speaker0>going to be answering a call to have some lonely time it would seem like a profession

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<v Speaker0>that on the surface you deal with people just all the time but you're right

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<v Speaker0>it's like water water everywhere,

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<v Speaker0>not a drop to drink, being out in the middle of the ocean. None of that water is freshwater.

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<v Speaker0>So Dr. Stewart, you work as the director of the Great Commission Association.

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<v Speaker0>You work with dozens, if not hundreds of pastors.

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<v Speaker0>Are you hearing this kind of thing from them? Do they talk to you about loneliness?

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<v Speaker0>My sense of pastors is they clam up about those kinds of issues.

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<v Speaker0>But what about you? Do you hear about this from time to time?

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<v Speaker0>No, I don't think this is, This is not part of most men's makeup to complain

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<v Speaker0>about the things that they don't have.

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<v Speaker0>They're going to hero up and bear the cross. And, you know, this is part of the price.

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<v Speaker0>What struck me, Chase, from the statistics, and I think some of the things that

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<v Speaker0>have been shared are always been systemically a part of pastoring a group of

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<v Speaker0>people because you love them and you need to lead them.

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<v Speaker0>But being vulnerable in front of them, knowing, thinking that you can trust them with the real you.

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<v Speaker0>That's a risky proposition with a group of people.

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<v Speaker0>And what struck me with what you shared was that even with all those things

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<v Speaker0>being familiar with ministry like that, there's this huge decline going on.

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<v Speaker0>So what's happening in our society? What are we replacing friendship with from

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<v Speaker0>the time that you quoted was 2015 till now?

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<v Speaker0>What has dramatically changed in our world that we are substituting friendship for?

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<v Speaker0>And I'm going to guess that's got to be, we don't call somebody and say,

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<v Speaker0>hey, let's go out to dinner because we were going to watch social media or we

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<v Speaker0>just don't want to mess with people or friendship takes time.

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<v Speaker0>Something that most pastors on Friday night, they're still thinking,

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<v Speaker0>you know, we're consumed Sunday is coming.

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<v Speaker0>So I think it's, I think it's something that God has to start putting inside of us and older pastors.

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<v Speaker0>And it can really be influential to younger pastors.

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<v Speaker0>Hey, reach out and be a friend. I was at a retreat with some pastors a few weeks

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<v Speaker0>ago and we were in a prayer.

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<v Speaker0>They got us up in prayer circles and they're from all over the country.

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<v Speaker0>And they just said, look, and it wasn't part of the program.

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<v Speaker0>Look, you need friends. They said this.

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<v Speaker0>Successful pastor, you need friends. If there's someone around the table that

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<v Speaker0>you felt like talked your language, get their phone number.

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<v Speaker0>And when you leave, write it down and call them in a couple of weeks and tell

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<v Speaker0>them, I'm praying for you.

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<v Speaker0>What's up? And no one took my number, which I was very sad about,

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<v Speaker0>but I took somebody else's number and I'm going to reach out next week.

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<v Speaker0>But it's intentionality.

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<v Speaker0>And I think also we got to be careful because we tell ourselves,

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<v Speaker0>pastors are very, very giving, serving people.

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<v Speaker0>As we tell ourselves, that would be me taking. If I reached out and I need a

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<v Speaker0>friend, that's for me. And I need to be the friend.

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<v Speaker0>That's more of giving. And that might not be what you need right now.

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<v Speaker0>You might need some just relaxing with someone who enjoys doing what you do,

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<v Speaker0>which is good, wholesome things that you can rejoice with and you like and you like to do together.

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<v Speaker0>But there's something happening in the society. And I think I read this trend among all men

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<v Speaker0>All men are more lonely than they've ever been. You know, I think when we talk

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<v Speaker0>about friendships, you know, we need genuine friendships.

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<v Speaker0>We need authentic friendship, not just transactional or to get something.

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<v Speaker0>And I think in ministry, many times our relationships can become transactional.

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<v Speaker0>They are, okay, I'm going to be nice to this person so that I can get something

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<v Speaker0>in return. And maybe we don't say that.

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<v Speaker0>We probably shouldn't say that, right? But back in our mind.

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<v Speaker0>I've never said that to you, Chris.

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<v Speaker0>That's good. That's good. I've never said it out loud, but I apologize right now.

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<v Speaker0>And I think what rolls into this as well is our individualistic culture.

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<v Speaker0>You know, as in the United States, we are very individualistic.

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<v Speaker0>Other cultures, they're more community-oriented. So I think we just have to

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<v Speaker0>be self-aware of these things.

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<v Speaker0>And as a pastor, it's even more that we need this more.

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<v Speaker0>And we can't just go by, we can't just coast through life in a way that,

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<v Speaker0>oh, I don't need friendship. I don't need a community, true community,

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<v Speaker0>truly loving other people in a way that's in a peer.

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<v Speaker0>Not that I'm pastoring them, but that we're in this ministry together.

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<v Speaker0>We're in partnership in ministry together. And we have true friends.

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<v Speaker0>I'm part of a group of pastors.

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<v Speaker0>It's a local group. They embody this very well. We get together once a month

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<v Speaker0>for lunch, and there's not a big agenda.

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<v Speaker0>I pray together, get together, talk to each other. But part of that,

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<v Speaker0>I've seen that there's just been an openness.

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<v Speaker0>A lot of them have been together for many, many years. I've only been part of

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<v Speaker0>the group for about eight years, but many of them is like 20 plus years.

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<v Speaker0>And there is a genuine, an authenticness to the time together,

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<v Speaker0>which is what you have to get to as a pastor.

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<v Speaker0>And we have to be intentional about it. It just doesn't happen.

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<v Speaker0>Let's talk about that intentionality, because I will just say something reasonably transparent.

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<v Speaker0>I came from Alabama, 2018, where I had a very deep circle of friends.

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<v Speaker0>Somewhere in the early days of 2018, 2019, I met Pastor Grant at some sort of eating thing.

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<v Speaker0>And I knew immediately that he was my kind of guy, that I could hang out with

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<v Speaker0>this guy and be friends with him. But our connection points since then,

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<v Speaker0>what has that been, almost eight years ago, we actually haven't seen each other very much.

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<v Speaker0>And that tells me we did have coffee three or four weeks ago. It was fantastic.

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<v Speaker0>Confirmed what I sort of innately knew. This is a guy that I really could be

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<v Speaker0>friends with. But there's a combination of factors, I think,

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<v Speaker0>that sort of work together to keep pastors.

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<v Speaker0>There's probably other professions like this, but to keep pastors sort of isolated like that.

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<v Speaker0>So how can we build intentionality in our lives as pastors?

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<v Speaker0>And for you guys, Dr. Stewart and Dr. Smith, you guys sort of more,

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<v Speaker0>your work right now is more with pastors as opposed to pastoring.

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<v Speaker0>So how can you guys and how can the Great Commission Association and how can

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<v Speaker0>other associations facilitate those kind of relationships?

00:14:59.366 --> 00:15:04.866
<v Speaker0>Always, you can elevate the issue. That's one of the things an association can do.

00:15:04.946 --> 00:15:09.006
<v Speaker0>It can bring things forward for pastors to contemplate and pray about themselves.

00:15:09.206 --> 00:15:13.626
<v Speaker0>As you were talking, Chase, I'm thinking, you know, is that a part of my prayer

00:15:13.626 --> 00:15:17.126
<v Speaker0>life before God? God, let me find a Jonathan.

00:15:17.606 --> 00:15:23.026
<v Speaker0>Let me find a David. let me find a relationship. Send someone to me that's important

00:15:23.026 --> 00:15:26.266
<v Speaker0>to you and important to me in my life. If we're not.

00:15:26.867 --> 00:15:31.007
<v Speaker0>And I'm not praying that way, perhaps, because I don't see that my greatest need.

00:15:31.207 --> 00:15:34.647
<v Speaker0>I have other things that are my greatest need that I think is my greatest need.

00:15:34.787 --> 00:15:39.407
<v Speaker0>So I would say we can elevate, but also it's through the ministry we do through

00:15:39.407 --> 00:15:43.007
<v Speaker0>the care ambassadors and other things. We try to create opportunities.

00:15:43.207 --> 00:15:44.727
<v Speaker0>You can't make people be friends.

00:15:45.307 --> 00:15:48.027
<v Speaker0>That's right. You can get them around where they can be friendly.

00:15:48.327 --> 00:15:53.047
<v Speaker0>But you also have to teach, teach as, hey, is there somebody in this circle

00:15:53.047 --> 00:15:55.907
<v Speaker0>or a circle close to you that you get to be the real you?

00:15:55.907 --> 00:16:00.807
<v Speaker0>When you're ticked off about A, B, C, or D, you can pick up the phone and say,

00:16:00.907 --> 00:16:03.827
<v Speaker0>I just got to tell somebody that and find out if I'm crazy.

00:16:04.496 --> 00:16:08.876
<v Speaker0>And they can hear you say stuff that doesn't have a Bible verse every three lines.

00:16:09.236 --> 00:16:13.856
<v Speaker0>And I can't say that's a high priority, been a high priority for us.

00:16:13.996 --> 00:16:16.296
<v Speaker0>We're always talking about the church and the function.

00:16:16.456 --> 00:16:20.436
<v Speaker0>We're not really talking about the heart need of the pastor many times.

00:16:20.716 --> 00:16:25.216
<v Speaker0>You know, when you say be the real you, I think that that is just something

00:16:25.216 --> 00:16:26.416
<v Speaker0>we have to just acknowledge.

00:16:26.656 --> 00:16:30.376
<v Speaker0>I mean, we've all kind of been burned going, oh, I think this is a real friend

00:16:30.376 --> 00:16:35.596
<v Speaker0>and I'm going to open up. And then you find out that for whatever reason they

00:16:35.596 --> 00:16:38.776
<v Speaker0>move, there's some brokenness, you drift apart, whatever it is.

00:16:39.016 --> 00:16:43.816
<v Speaker0>And so I think they taped you for a podcast session that they played for everybody. Exactly.

00:16:44.196 --> 00:16:45.736
<v Speaker0>Thought it was just coffee, Chase.

00:16:47.256 --> 00:16:50.856
<v Speaker0>Content's king. What are we going to do? But to have the idea that like,

00:16:50.956 --> 00:16:53.256
<v Speaker0>don't give up, you know, it does take time.

00:16:53.536 --> 00:16:57.636
<v Speaker0>And also like, this is not an all or nothing proposition.

00:16:57.636 --> 00:17:02.496
<v Speaker0>I always counsel, especially young men, but there's the number of people that

00:17:02.496 --> 00:17:06.996
<v Speaker0>really know your heart. It shouldn't be zero, but it shouldn't be a hundred

00:17:06.996 --> 00:17:08.896
<v Speaker0>either. Like, guard your heart.

00:17:09.116 --> 00:17:13.516
<v Speaker0>It's okay to say, not everybody in my life, I need to work on being vulnerable,

00:17:13.516 --> 00:17:15.916
<v Speaker0>so I'm going to spill my guts at every prayer meeting.

00:17:16.056 --> 00:17:20.516
<v Speaker0>No, that's not right either, especially like if you're the people shepherd,

00:17:20.836 --> 00:17:27.976
<v Speaker0>you shouldn't burden them with every drop of, you know, sorrow in your heart at the same time.

00:17:28.136 --> 00:17:30.796
<v Speaker0>It shouldn't be nobody that knows the real you. And, you know,

00:17:30.956 --> 00:17:34.876
<v Speaker0>we'll probably talk about this relationship in other topics today,

00:17:34.936 --> 00:17:36.836
<v Speaker0>but it's got to start with your wife.

00:17:37.364 --> 00:17:41.064
<v Speaker0>You know, God gave you, Tiffany and I talk a lot about like,

00:17:41.224 --> 00:17:45.224
<v Speaker0>people are going to come and go in our lives, but God gave us each other for a lifetime.

00:17:45.564 --> 00:17:50.964
<v Speaker0>And so you have to have male friendship, but to have that idea that God gave me a best friend.

00:17:51.124 --> 00:17:56.104
<v Speaker0>And if I'm not pouring into that relationship, I'm not going to replace that

00:17:56.104 --> 00:17:58.724
<v Speaker0>with dudes in the circle once a month.

00:17:59.424 --> 00:18:03.464
<v Speaker0>And so it's great to have, you know, you need different levels of friendship.

00:18:03.624 --> 00:18:06.284
<v Speaker0>There has to be that most intimate partner in your wife.

00:18:06.584 --> 00:18:11.124
<v Speaker0>And then it's great to seek out. And it's not sinful to make the person that

00:18:11.124 --> 00:18:14.164
<v Speaker0>you share the most with somebody that doesn't go to your church.

00:18:14.264 --> 00:18:17.624
<v Speaker0>In fact, it might be some wisdom to that.

00:18:17.764 --> 00:18:23.564
<v Speaker0>And then to say, you know, to have a bullpen of four or five guys that you just

00:18:23.564 --> 00:18:28.384
<v Speaker0>that are life-giving to be around. and then to have the masses that you're friendly

00:18:28.384 --> 00:18:31.464
<v Speaker0>with and that you're, you know, stable with is great.

00:18:31.624 --> 00:18:34.644
<v Speaker0>But I think to say it's okay that that

00:18:35.041 --> 00:18:39.361
<v Speaker0>Aside from your wife, that that best friend kind of person comes and goes.

00:18:39.661 --> 00:18:41.841
<v Speaker0>My best friend died when we were 37.

00:18:42.361 --> 00:18:46.761
<v Speaker0>And there's no replacing Chad Sluder in my life. It's not going to happen.

00:18:46.901 --> 00:18:48.901
<v Speaker0>But that doesn't mean God has abandoned you.

00:18:49.141 --> 00:18:52.161
<v Speaker0>There's going to be other people who God brings into your life.

00:18:52.281 --> 00:18:55.981
<v Speaker0>And so to just not give up and not be foolish with your heart,

00:18:56.161 --> 00:18:59.761
<v Speaker0>not be reckless with your heart, but also not be jaded and too self-centered

00:18:59.761 --> 00:19:02.681
<v Speaker0>about it and say, yeah, God will bring people into your life.

00:19:02.861 --> 00:19:04.581
<v Speaker0>Go ahead and build those friendships.

00:19:05.041 --> 00:19:08.421
<v Speaker0>That's a good word, to be wise, to be wise in those relationships,

00:19:08.421 --> 00:19:12.381
<v Speaker0>because when you're preaching on Sunday, it's not a therapy session.

00:19:12.381 --> 00:19:16.981
<v Speaker0>And so you give illustrations in a way that is wise and good.

00:19:17.421 --> 00:19:21.341
<v Speaker0>And I think that we, you know, how do you, Chase, you ask, how do we facilitate

00:19:21.341 --> 00:19:22.621
<v Speaker0>these types of relationships?

00:19:23.001 --> 00:19:27.441
<v Speaker0>One, we need to be modeling these types of relationships. We need to be having

00:19:27.441 --> 00:19:32.781
<v Speaker0>these vulnerable, authentic, real relationships. And I think we,

00:19:33.001 --> 00:19:35.001
<v Speaker0>in our role, we can do a lot of connecting.

00:19:35.321 --> 00:19:39.201
<v Speaker0>I remember one pastor I was talking to and he was struggling,

00:19:39.201 --> 00:19:41.761
<v Speaker0>and so we all knew he was struggling.

00:19:41.961 --> 00:19:46.101
<v Speaker0>So I called another pastor and I said, could you check on him?

00:19:46.201 --> 00:19:48.901
<v Speaker0>Could you call him? Could you include him in this specifically?

00:19:49.261 --> 00:19:54.641
<v Speaker0>Can you do this, these specific things? And he did and things improved and just

00:19:54.641 --> 00:19:59.701
<v Speaker0>that friendship, but it did take an intentionality and for us to see it.

00:19:59.701 --> 00:20:05.541
<v Speaker0>So in our role, we need to be able to see what's happening and just really be

00:20:05.541 --> 00:20:09.881
<v Speaker0>sensitive to how the Spirit is moving within a person, a pastor,

00:20:09.881 --> 00:20:12.081
<v Speaker0>or a church and respond accordingly.

00:20:12.321 --> 00:20:15.401
<v Speaker0>Hey, can I ask you guys something? How important is fun in all this?

00:20:15.501 --> 00:20:19.901
<v Speaker0>Because I'll tell you what, like fun is the pathway to intimacy for me,

00:20:20.041 --> 00:20:24.121
<v Speaker0>not the other way around. Like, hey, let's get together in somebody's office

00:20:24.121 --> 00:20:28.881
<v Speaker0>surrounded by a bunch of books and share our heart is just so much harder for

00:20:28.881 --> 00:20:30.321
<v Speaker0>me than playing around a disc golf.

00:20:30.621 --> 00:20:34.461
<v Speaker0>And you know what I'm talking about? Like, I do think that that's a part of

00:20:34.461 --> 00:20:37.341
<v Speaker0>this conversation is that we need to not be afraid to.

00:20:37.904 --> 00:20:41.864
<v Speaker0>Have some fun with others. I was just about ready to invite you to a deep session

00:20:41.864 --> 00:20:47.044
<v Speaker0>at my office, but for friendship, but I'm getting a sense of my...

00:20:47.044 --> 00:20:48.104
<v Speaker0>It's time to be friends right now.

00:20:49.144 --> 00:20:53.104
<v Speaker0>Now we've got it scheduled for the next half hour. You will be my friend.

00:20:54.024 --> 00:20:59.244
<v Speaker0>That's right. Well, men like projects. They like things to do and hanging out

00:20:59.244 --> 00:21:01.384
<v Speaker0>and getting stuff done. That's what they like.

00:21:01.884 --> 00:21:04.304
<v Speaker0>And, you know, I agree with you, Grant. We,

00:21:05.190 --> 00:21:08.910
<v Speaker0>It can get serious when it needs to get serious, but there's got to be some

00:21:08.910 --> 00:21:10.850
<v Speaker0>relationship building that's enjoyable.

00:21:11.150 --> 00:21:14.570
<v Speaker0>Before that, I'm not going to share anything deep with you if I have never spent

00:21:14.570 --> 00:21:19.010
<v Speaker0>time with you. And that time is going to be, what? I'm already in books a lot.

00:21:19.170 --> 00:21:24.570
<v Speaker0>I'm already in, you know, maybe that's the thing, the idea for pastors and more people.

00:21:24.850 --> 00:21:30.310
<v Speaker0>A friend is somebody else I have to get into my life. So we need to relax more.

00:21:30.430 --> 00:21:34.010
<v Speaker0>We need to dedicate some Sabbath time to us having a little enjoyment.

00:21:34.010 --> 00:21:37.930
<v Speaker0>I think that would help all the tension to come off because we,

00:21:38.010 --> 00:21:41.710
<v Speaker0>we have a lot of things that we're responsible for and sometimes they don't go great.

00:21:41.970 --> 00:21:44.870
<v Speaker0>And just getting with somebody and having some fun, man, that would be,

00:21:44.990 --> 00:21:49.010
<v Speaker0>that's, that's a blessing, but it's got to be a rhythm, a rhythm of our life.

00:21:49.010 --> 00:21:54.950
<v Speaker0>Yeah, I think most of the deepest, best conversations, like heart-to-heart kind

00:21:54.950 --> 00:21:58.310
<v Speaker0>of conversations I've had with other men haven't been planned.

00:21:58.550 --> 00:22:02.670
<v Speaker0>They've been in the middle of something else. And when you talk about connecting,

00:22:02.970 --> 00:22:09.170
<v Speaker0>Chris, and that there's no formula to it other than spend enough time that the

00:22:09.170 --> 00:22:13.290
<v Speaker0>conversation comes up, prove yourself trustworthy in small things,

00:22:13.550 --> 00:22:15.650
<v Speaker0>and people will learn to trust you in big things.

00:22:15.650 --> 00:22:21.530
<v Speaker0>Good to have a mix of one-on-one, a mix of a small, smaller situation.

00:22:21.870 --> 00:22:27.050
<v Speaker0>Three or four, and then the bigger group where it could be like 15 to 20.

00:22:27.230 --> 00:22:33.130
<v Speaker0>I think that that helps because one, you might not have as many of these type

00:22:33.130 --> 00:22:37.410
<v Speaker0>of conversations, but at least you're getting to know other people where in

00:22:37.410 --> 00:22:40.650
<v Speaker0>the future you could have those type of conversations.

00:22:40.870 --> 00:22:45.490
<v Speaker0>And not everybody's going to be like what Dr. Mike said, not everybody's going to be friends.

00:22:45.590 --> 00:22:49.950
<v Speaker0>We can't make them be friends. But if we can cultivate that environment of community,

00:22:50.190 --> 00:22:55.150
<v Speaker0>real community, true community, then I believe that it can happen and it does happen.

00:22:55.396 --> 00:22:57.516
<v Speaker0>Pastor Grant, you talked about

00:22:57.516 --> 00:23:03.056
<v Speaker0>kind of the issue of fun. On a recent episode of the show, we had Dr.

00:23:03.396 --> 00:23:07.196
<v Speaker0>C.J. Wan, who is the Director of Mission Operations for the GCA,

00:23:07.316 --> 00:23:13.836
<v Speaker0>and we asked him not too serious question, what kind of people would you want to go on a cruise with?

00:23:13.836 --> 00:23:18.696
<v Speaker0>A group of pastors, a group of denominational leaders, a group of worship leaders.

00:23:18.936 --> 00:23:24.176
<v Speaker0>And both he and I, in discussing that question, were pretty adamant that we

00:23:24.176 --> 00:23:27.896
<v Speaker0>probably would not want to go on a cruise with a bunch of pastors.

00:23:28.136 --> 00:23:32.496
<v Speaker0>And of course, I am a pastor and he's been a pastor. My sense of most pastors

00:23:32.496 --> 00:23:36.276
<v Speaker0>as a person who did not grow up wanting to be a pastor, I went to church,

00:23:36.416 --> 00:23:37.556
<v Speaker0>I didn't dislike pastors,

00:23:37.716 --> 00:23:43.576
<v Speaker0>but I thought they were kind of stuffy and serious and in a sense, not real people.

00:23:43.776 --> 00:23:47.736
<v Speaker0>And so I completely resonate with you when you say, hey, you know,

00:23:47.836 --> 00:23:50.596
<v Speaker0>I want to connect with somebody on a said fun.

00:23:50.936 --> 00:23:53.876
<v Speaker0>And Dr. Stewart mentioned projects. And that is, it's interesting.

00:23:54.056 --> 00:23:57.636
<v Speaker0>Some guys like to have fun together. Some guys like to do projects together.

00:23:57.836 --> 00:24:02.356
<v Speaker0>Most guys don't like to be stuffy together. And I think there's a pressure on

00:24:02.356 --> 00:24:06.176
<v Speaker0>pastors sometimes to act as if they are more.

00:24:06.856 --> 00:24:13.596
<v Speaker0>Elevated and holy and godly than they actually are, which kind of brings me to my next question.

00:24:13.596 --> 00:24:19.636
<v Speaker0>When I was first starting out in ministry, it was fairly common advice for pastors

00:24:19.636 --> 00:24:23.916
<v Speaker0>to either, A, avoid being friends.

00:24:24.276 --> 00:24:30.116
<v Speaker0>Like real friends, with people in your congregation, or B, be extremely careful about it.

00:24:30.276 --> 00:24:35.376
<v Speaker0>And right now at the moment, Dr. Stewart, you are the interim pastor at First Baptist Gilroy.

00:24:35.596 --> 00:24:39.916
<v Speaker0>Pastor Grant, you are pastoring in Seaside. I am pastoring. So beginning with

00:24:39.916 --> 00:24:43.736
<v Speaker0>one of you two guys, what do you think about that advice?

00:24:43.796 --> 00:24:46.676
<v Speaker0>And do you think pastors should follow it?

00:24:46.916 --> 00:24:50.396
<v Speaker0>I'll go to the guy who's doing it 24-7 first, Grant.

00:24:50.751 --> 00:24:56.431
<v Speaker0>Yeah, I think it just takes wisdom. I think that there's wisdom there.

00:24:56.651 --> 00:24:59.391
<v Speaker0>Like a lot of great wisdom, there's tension in the question.

00:24:59.651 --> 00:25:05.831
<v Speaker0>I think that it's wisdom to say, hey, anything you say over game night can and

00:25:05.831 --> 00:25:08.791
<v Speaker0>will be held against you in the quad on Sunday morning.

00:25:08.791 --> 00:25:13.331
<v Speaker0>I think you have to know that, that there's a position that you said yes to,

00:25:13.411 --> 00:25:15.751
<v Speaker0>to be an under-shepherd under Christ,

00:25:15.891 --> 00:25:19.691
<v Speaker0>that these people are going to call you on the worst day of their year,

00:25:19.691 --> 00:25:25.451
<v Speaker0>and they need to know that you have the kind of character and can be serious

00:25:25.451 --> 00:25:29.391
<v Speaker0>and trustworthy, so they're comfortable calling you. You are their pastor.

00:25:29.531 --> 00:25:31.731
<v Speaker0>There's never a moment where you're not their pastor.

00:25:31.891 --> 00:25:35.091
<v Speaker0>That means social media. That means every conversation.

00:25:35.131 --> 00:25:39.091
<v Speaker0>You are always their pastor, and you need to act like it. At the same time,

00:25:39.391 --> 00:25:44.671
<v Speaker0>I think the other side of that same coin is, look, if you're not vulnerable,

00:25:44.971 --> 00:25:49.431
<v Speaker0>if you keep people at arm's length, the number one thing people need to know is that you love them.

00:25:49.651 --> 00:25:54.111
<v Speaker0>And you know what I always pray and is, God, give me not just an agape love

00:25:54.111 --> 00:25:56.471
<v Speaker0>for this congregation, but I want to like them.

00:25:56.651 --> 00:25:59.831
<v Speaker0>Like, I want to be excited when they walk in the room. And you can't really

00:25:59.831 --> 00:26:04.011
<v Speaker0>do that as the expert sage on the stage kind of guy.

00:26:04.171 --> 00:26:08.311
<v Speaker0>I don't show up for a congregation. I show up for these people.

00:26:08.711 --> 00:26:14.871
<v Speaker0>And so, you know, I think when Paul said, man, I've been poured out like a drink offering.

00:26:15.051 --> 00:26:20.151
<v Speaker0>I think there was a lot of different kinds of hurt in that being poured out.

00:26:20.151 --> 00:26:21.691
<v Speaker0>Oh, that's not just he got old.

00:26:21.851 --> 00:26:27.511
<v Speaker0>He's saying, look, my back bears the marks of ministry and I've been abandoned by people.

00:26:27.791 --> 00:26:32.171
<v Speaker0>I mean, so much of his advice to Timothy is, man, you're in a really hard spot.

00:26:32.411 --> 00:26:36.771
<v Speaker0>Just don't leave. Just stay there and keep preaching, dude.

00:26:36.771 --> 00:26:41.891
<v Speaker0>And so to have that, yeah, be wise and guard your heart and at the same time

00:26:41.891 --> 00:26:46.611
<v Speaker0>have enough vulnerability that because I'll tell you the other thing is if you

00:26:46.611 --> 00:26:50.271
<v Speaker0>spend 10 years like I think that's the fastest way to a fall.

00:26:50.724 --> 00:26:55.424
<v Speaker0>Is to just hide who you really are from your congregation. You have to be wise.

00:26:55.604 --> 00:26:59.184
<v Speaker0>Don't burden them with your struggles and sorrows when it's unnecessary.

00:26:59.664 --> 00:27:05.804
<v Speaker0>But, you know, I think maybe 50 years ago, maybe other places in the country,

00:27:06.224 --> 00:27:07.564
<v Speaker0>pastors were on pedestals.

00:27:07.704 --> 00:27:11.684
<v Speaker0>I don't think I'm on a pedestal. I just don't think that's the way people view

00:27:11.684 --> 00:27:15.124
<v Speaker0>their pastor anymore. But they sure do need to know that you're trustworthy.

00:27:15.364 --> 00:27:22.604
<v Speaker0>And so to be vulnerable enough where they know the real you And it's also a reminder...

00:27:23.078 --> 00:27:27.258
<v Speaker0>The real you needs to be a godly person. They need to know the real you and

00:27:27.258 --> 00:27:31.098
<v Speaker0>you be somebody that genuinely loves the Lord and has seen victory over sin

00:27:31.098 --> 00:27:35.758
<v Speaker0>and is somebody that they would be happy to be their pastor.

00:27:35.878 --> 00:27:39.518
<v Speaker0>I think if the problem with vulnerability is that you don't want people to know

00:27:39.518 --> 00:27:44.558
<v Speaker0>that you don't really follow the Lord that closely, then selling insurance is a great occupation.

00:27:44.818 --> 00:27:48.998
<v Speaker0>Go ahead and do it. So I don't know if that was rambly or answered the question,

00:27:48.998 --> 00:27:50.918
<v Speaker0>But I think there has to be wisdom.

00:27:51.058 --> 00:27:54.438
<v Speaker0>I think you can't be completely guarded, and I don't think you can be reckless

00:27:54.438 --> 00:27:57.298
<v Speaker0>with your heart. But somewhere there's wisdom in there somewhere.

00:27:57.558 --> 00:28:01.838
<v Speaker0>That's great. I told our leaders this week, we had a leadership meeting last

00:28:01.838 --> 00:28:04.898
<v Speaker0>week, and I gave a bit of a State of the Union address to them.

00:28:04.998 --> 00:28:10.498
<v Speaker0>And one of the things I said is if the people in the church see us get derailed

00:28:10.498 --> 00:28:17.298
<v Speaker0>by small things, they will themselves get derailed by even smaller things.

00:28:17.298 --> 00:28:21.318
<v Speaker0>Because they'll say, hey, if it took this leader out, this deacon out or whatever,

00:28:21.518 --> 00:28:22.818
<v Speaker0>it certainly will take me out.

00:28:22.938 --> 00:28:26.398
<v Speaker0>Well, Dr. Stewart, you have been interim pastor several times.

00:28:26.538 --> 00:28:30.618
<v Speaker0>And before that, you've been involved in church ministry in every facet.

00:28:30.718 --> 00:28:32.258
<v Speaker0>What's your take on the whole question?

00:28:32.378 --> 00:28:36.838
<v Speaker0>Can pastors be friends, real friends with people in the congregation?

00:28:37.058 --> 00:28:42.658
<v Speaker0>I would say you can be to make that decision that you're going to move forward

00:28:42.658 --> 00:28:46.458
<v Speaker0>towards a deep friendship with somebody who is a member of your church,

00:28:46.458 --> 00:28:51.058
<v Speaker0>needs to be one that is prayed through because they have to be able to handle

00:28:51.058 --> 00:28:52.958
<v Speaker0>it. It is what Grant was saying.

00:28:53.158 --> 00:28:55.318
<v Speaker0>They're going to be your friend, but you're still their pastor.

00:28:55.778 --> 00:29:00.478
<v Speaker0>And so then, you know, we know this when deep trauma happens to a church family

00:29:00.478 --> 00:29:05.738
<v Speaker0>and they tell their pastor all about it and it's some, maybe it's a shame issue or guilt issue.

00:29:06.058 --> 00:29:09.398
<v Speaker0>They have a hard time showing back up in church eventually because when you're

00:29:09.398 --> 00:29:13.618
<v Speaker0>preaching and you're teaching about subjects that may touch on the fabric of

00:29:13.618 --> 00:29:18.118
<v Speaker0>their issue, they can't discern whether you mean them or that you mean the sin.

00:29:18.338 --> 00:29:22.718
<v Speaker0>I'm gonna say there's a difference between us loving our people deeply and becoming

00:29:22.718 --> 00:29:25.018
<v Speaker0>best friends with them. And I think what they want.

00:29:25.554 --> 00:29:30.294
<v Speaker0>They want you to love them deeply. I will say this as a director of missions.

00:29:30.494 --> 00:29:35.994
<v Speaker0>I have pastors, I mean, it's part of my ministry position, when they're discouraged

00:29:35.994 --> 00:29:39.894
<v Speaker0>and thinking about ending their ministry with the congregation.

00:29:40.214 --> 00:29:43.154
<v Speaker0>Many times I will get a call and they want to talk about it.

00:29:43.234 --> 00:29:45.894
<v Speaker0>Kind of like when a pastor gets marriage counseling, someone calls,

00:29:45.974 --> 00:29:46.814
<v Speaker0>we want marriage counseling.

00:29:47.034 --> 00:29:53.534
<v Speaker0>The chances of you coming in in time are minimal. I have a stock question for

00:29:53.534 --> 00:29:56.154
<v Speaker0>them, and this might, this is just me.

00:29:56.354 --> 00:29:59.554
<v Speaker0>I will listen to everything they want to say because they've come to talk,

00:29:59.694 --> 00:30:01.354
<v Speaker0>and they unburdened about, and they're hurt.

00:30:01.634 --> 00:30:05.574
<v Speaker0>And things have happened that in all legitimacy, they should be hurt.

00:30:05.914 --> 00:30:09.074
<v Speaker0>Things have gone down, things have happened. And they will get through,

00:30:09.214 --> 00:30:12.814
<v Speaker0>and I let them finish, and I will tell them, that's a lot.

00:30:13.034 --> 00:30:17.694
<v Speaker0>You're dealing with a lot. My question for you, brother, is do you still love them?

00:30:17.834 --> 00:30:21.394
<v Speaker0>Do you still love them, or are you, do you don't even like them anymore?

00:30:21.394 --> 00:30:24.274
<v Speaker0>Because if you still love them, there's a path for you here.

00:30:24.374 --> 00:30:28.914
<v Speaker0>And you are the one that's in charge of what happens next in this church as

00:30:28.914 --> 00:30:30.854
<v Speaker0>far as regards to the office of pastor.

00:30:30.994 --> 00:30:35.774
<v Speaker0>Because all these things you've talked about, God is dealing and working in the midst of that.

00:30:36.094 --> 00:30:40.914
<v Speaker0>Sometimes staying when you're hurt is an incredible testimony to the church

00:30:40.914 --> 00:30:42.334
<v Speaker0>that they stay through things.

00:30:42.414 --> 00:30:45.154
<v Speaker0>They stay in their marriage when they're hurt. They stay with their kids when they're hurt.

00:30:45.334 --> 00:30:49.054
<v Speaker0>And they see, they're always watching. The church family is always,

00:30:49.214 --> 00:30:53.254
<v Speaker0>and you know, they know more about who's hurting you and what's hurting you than you think.

00:30:53.434 --> 00:30:56.894
<v Speaker0>Because people talk outside your presence and they watch you,

00:30:57.094 --> 00:31:01.954
<v Speaker0>how you engage with the person they know who is gossiping about you the most.

00:31:02.654 --> 00:31:08.334
<v Speaker0>They watch you and they see whether the grace comes out or the opposite of that.

00:31:08.494 --> 00:31:15.194
<v Speaker0>And only through Christ can we be given glory about how we recognize this person

00:31:15.194 --> 00:31:16.234
<v Speaker0>in front of me, they're hurting.

00:31:16.394 --> 00:31:19.074
<v Speaker0>The person who's gossiping is like, there's something broken,

00:31:19.074 --> 00:31:20.554
<v Speaker0>but I don't have to be broken?

00:31:21.080 --> 00:31:23.980
<v Speaker0>And I don't have to hurt them. If I do have a close friend in the church,

00:31:24.240 --> 00:31:28.540
<v Speaker0>I would certainly also have a close friend even outside the church,

00:31:28.540 --> 00:31:32.380
<v Speaker0>but maybe outside of my circle of Southern Baptist leaders.

00:31:32.540 --> 00:31:35.960
<v Speaker0>I would have someone who wasn't in our power circle or whatever.

00:31:36.220 --> 00:31:40.480
<v Speaker0>Those are healthy pastors, and they won't spend time talking to you about denominational

00:31:40.480 --> 00:31:42.640
<v Speaker0>politics, which doesn't get anybody anywhere.

00:31:44.460 --> 00:31:48.880
<v Speaker0>How am I going to pastor my church better? Well, let's first talk about the denominational. Why?

00:31:49.400 --> 00:31:53.460
<v Speaker0>We have a meeting every year. We get to go do that. So I would just say that,

00:31:53.700 --> 00:31:55.260
<v Speaker0>you know, be wise about it. You can.

00:31:55.560 --> 00:32:00.500
<v Speaker0>I was counseled that way. And our wives are the ones who actually build deeper

00:32:00.500 --> 00:32:03.460
<v Speaker0>relationships and they have to have wisdom too.

00:32:03.660 --> 00:32:07.180
<v Speaker0>We don't normally tell them that, but I just think women have a much more,

00:32:07.340 --> 00:32:12.520
<v Speaker0>my God, an affinity to draw into close relationships. They do it easier and faster, most of them.

00:32:12.740 --> 00:32:17.260
<v Speaker0>But even then, they're your wife. They're the pastor's wife and they'll get

00:32:17.260 --> 00:32:22.520
<v Speaker0>hurt, deeply hurt if they're betrayed. And so we have to help them and how we

00:32:22.520 --> 00:32:24.160
<v Speaker0>navigate that because it's fuzzy.

00:32:24.260 --> 00:32:27.960
<v Speaker0>When you get up to that line of love and friendship, now I'm going to cross

00:32:27.960 --> 00:32:28.840
<v Speaker0>over into deep friendship.

00:32:29.020 --> 00:32:32.660
<v Speaker0>That's a fuzzy line. And once you cross over it, and that comes with,

00:32:32.760 --> 00:32:37.700
<v Speaker0>I think, with a sharing that this happened in my marriage or this happened with my kids.

00:32:38.400 --> 00:32:41.380
<v Speaker0>Something personal is shared and then you've crossed over.

00:32:42.120 --> 00:32:45.220
<v Speaker0>And you got to wait for the other person to respond back. Well,

00:32:45.220 --> 00:32:46.640
<v Speaker0>that's great, Mike. What about the weather?

00:32:47.060 --> 00:32:51.300
<v Speaker0>Yeah, well, it's really hot today. All right. Oops. So I would say just be wise,

00:32:51.480 --> 00:32:55.140
<v Speaker0>but if you have one that's inside the church, be careful with them.

00:32:55.320 --> 00:32:58.560
<v Speaker0>They still need you to be your pastor. I would say this to close.

00:32:59.040 --> 00:33:04.320
<v Speaker0>I've had a great, great life among God's people, but I think they really want

00:33:04.320 --> 00:33:06.480
<v Speaker0>to be proud of you, proud of their pastor.

00:33:06.740 --> 00:33:09.740
<v Speaker0>They want to say, that's my pastor. Not that's Jesus.

00:33:10.080 --> 00:33:13.420
<v Speaker0>No, that's my pastor, and I'm proud of him. And they will do that.

00:33:13.906 --> 00:33:18.686
<v Speaker0>If they see us walking among them, even when we have the stripes on our back

00:33:18.686 --> 00:33:22.666
<v Speaker0>and we've been wounded, but we still go up and we're filled up with God's care,

00:33:22.806 --> 00:33:24.826
<v Speaker0>God's joy for our people, and we still love them.

00:33:24.986 --> 00:33:29.206
<v Speaker0>So that's my take. That is an excellent and weighty observation.

00:33:29.586 --> 00:33:35.906
<v Speaker0>Okay. I think that's a good place to end part one of the round table interview for now.

00:33:36.066 --> 00:33:41.426
<v Speaker0>Never fear there's at least that much more coming up next week with the same

00:33:41.426 --> 00:33:47.246
<v Speaker0>panel and we'll go even deeper in our discussion of relationships in the church.

00:33:47.246 --> 00:33:52.886
<v Speaker0>For now, let's transition to a soda review of an excellent beverage that Dr.

00:33:53.146 --> 00:33:57.366
<v Speaker0>Stewart and I happen to agree on. One of the special things,

00:33:57.506 --> 00:34:01.646
<v Speaker0>I think it's special, unique things we do on the Every Church Flourishing podcast

00:34:01.646 --> 00:34:05.526
<v Speaker0>is we get a rare, unique, strange,

00:34:06.006 --> 00:34:10.406
<v Speaker0>sometimes foreign, sometimes domestic soda from our showrunner, Ms.

00:34:10.546 --> 00:34:17.126
<v Speaker0>Grace, and we review it on the show. And today we have a soda I've never heard of before.

00:34:17.326 --> 00:34:24.426
<v Speaker0>This is a German soda called Spezzi, and it is a cola and juicy orange soda,

00:34:24.446 --> 00:34:27.186
<v Speaker0>which is very popular over there.

00:34:27.326 --> 00:34:32.006
<v Speaker0>Dr. Stewart, have you ever had a soda that's a combination of cola and orange?

00:34:32.346 --> 00:34:33.746
<v Speaker0>No, I don't believe I have. Nor have I.

00:34:34.368 --> 00:34:40.728
<v Speaker0>It's a very unique kind of deal. I grew up on Orange Crush and sodas like that

00:34:40.728 --> 00:34:44.768
<v Speaker0>with an orange flavor, but I've never had a combo orange and cola.

00:34:45.108 --> 00:34:48.948
<v Speaker0>And when I read the title, Spezzi, I sort of think of the Speznos,

00:34:49.268 --> 00:34:54.848
<v Speaker0>the Russian Special Forces or the Stasi, which is not such a good thing to think of.

00:34:54.968 --> 00:34:58.208
<v Speaker0>But what it means, this is a word, and you see it there at the top.

00:34:58.328 --> 00:34:59.548
<v Speaker0>It says, friend for life.

00:35:00.228 --> 00:35:05.848
<v Speaker0>Spezzi is the Bavarian word for buddy. So I guess this is a drink that friends

00:35:05.848 --> 00:35:07.248
<v Speaker0>and buddies should drink.

00:35:07.428 --> 00:35:10.748
<v Speaker0>So we're going to drink it as friends and buddies and then tell you what we

00:35:10.748 --> 00:35:11.748
<v Speaker0>think about it. You ready?

00:35:11.948 --> 00:35:14.168
<v Speaker0>All right. Not bad. What do you think, Dr. Stewart?

00:35:14.388 --> 00:35:17.268
<v Speaker0>Yeah, not bad. It says Cola and Juicy Orange.

00:35:18.188 --> 00:35:22.288
<v Speaker0>Juicy Orange. I'm glad they, you know, it was a juicy orange that they used.

00:35:22.528 --> 00:35:26.628
<v Speaker0>But yeah, let me try it again. I definitely get the citrusy flavor there.

00:35:26.808 --> 00:35:30.208
<v Speaker0>Yeah, it is not bad. It's got a five-star German quality, it says.

00:35:30.488 --> 00:35:34.388
<v Speaker0>On the bottom, five-star German quality. So you drink this while you're driving

00:35:34.388 --> 00:35:38.668
<v Speaker0>your Mercedes down the Autobahn with your Spetznat, you know,

00:35:38.848 --> 00:35:41.048
<v Speaker0>sniper rifle in the back. Friend for life.

00:35:41.548 --> 00:35:45.848
<v Speaker0>Vasily is pretty good. Pretty good soda. Not bad. Reminds me of something else

00:35:45.848 --> 00:35:47.868
<v Speaker0>that they have in Europe.

00:35:48.068 --> 00:35:52.088
<v Speaker0>What's that? I can't remember the name of it, but it's, oh, I've seen them.

00:35:52.268 --> 00:35:56.988
<v Speaker0>But anyway, I would say that's a, I would give that a four and a half.

00:35:57.528 --> 00:36:01.448
<v Speaker0>I think I would agree. Four and a half. I could drink this. I could drink this

00:36:01.448 --> 00:36:06.108
<v Speaker0>a lot. It's, it's, it's tastes a little like somebody poured some juice in my

00:36:06.108 --> 00:36:11.008
<v Speaker0>Coke, but I think it tastes better than that. It's, it's, it's good. It's smooth.

00:36:11.208 --> 00:36:14.588
<v Speaker0>It's tasty. It's actually, I would say if I could give it one word,

00:36:14.688 --> 00:36:17.228
<v Speaker0>I would say refreshing. This is a refreshing beverage.

00:36:17.588 --> 00:36:21.228
<v Speaker0>Yeah. Now I'm not drinking. I think this over a glass of ice,

00:36:21.368 --> 00:36:24.288
<v Speaker0>nicely chilled would be really refreshing.

00:36:25.285 --> 00:36:28.785
<v Speaker0>Of course, this is a, you know, this is not a American sized bottle.

00:36:29.825 --> 00:36:37.245
<v Speaker0>This is probably, so this is a zero. Eight ounces? 0.25. Yeah. Okay.

00:36:38.165 --> 00:36:41.845
<v Speaker0>Yeah. It's a quarter of a liter, I guess. I don't know. But well,

00:36:41.945 --> 00:36:45.205
<v Speaker0>thank you, Grace, for picking one that was very delightful.

00:36:45.405 --> 00:36:49.605
<v Speaker0>So if you ever see Spetsy, or you can just say that to your pastor friends. Hey, Spetsy.

00:36:50.265 --> 00:36:53.945
<v Speaker0>That's right. Buddy, we have not only, we've not only refreshed,

00:36:54.185 --> 00:36:57.305
<v Speaker0>we've educated on this episode, Chase, so. That's important.

00:36:57.585 --> 00:37:02.325
<v Speaker0>That's important. And I'm going to agree with you. A rare concurrence and confluence.

00:37:02.485 --> 00:37:08.605
<v Speaker0>I'm going to say my Spezzi, also worth 4 out of 5, 4.5 out of 5 Spurgeons.

00:37:08.765 --> 00:37:12.665
<v Speaker0>This is, this is tasty. It's got full sugar. It's probably got a lot of calories,

00:37:12.865 --> 00:37:15.505
<v Speaker0>but I would drink this every day and be a happy camper.

00:37:15.505 --> 00:37:21.765
<v Speaker0>Okay, now that we are refreshed, we want to close out with some great quotes

00:37:21.765 --> 00:37:29.025
<v Speaker0>that you can use in your Resurrection Sunday sermon this upcoming week or Sunday

00:37:29.025 --> 00:37:31.885
<v Speaker0>school or post on your blog or whatever.

00:37:31.885 --> 00:37:37.945
<v Speaker0>I've picked out 10 great quotes from various church leaders on the resurrection

00:37:37.945 --> 00:37:42.105
<v Speaker0>of Jesus, and most of these are not super well-known.

00:37:42.265 --> 00:37:46.125
<v Speaker0>I wouldn't say they're exactly obscure or anything like that,

00:37:46.225 --> 00:37:48.385
<v Speaker0>but these are not the normal ones you read.

00:37:48.485 --> 00:37:53.505
<v Speaker0>So we'll start out with John Piper from God is the Gospel, who says in the number

00:37:53.505 --> 00:37:58.745
<v Speaker0>one slot, the best news of the Christian gospel is that the supremely glorious

00:37:58.745 --> 00:38:00.105
<v Speaker0>creator of the universe.

00:38:00.385 --> 00:38:06.685
<v Speaker0>Has acted in Jesus Christ's death and resurrection to remove every obstacle

00:38:06.685 --> 00:38:13.345
<v Speaker0>between us and himself so that we may find everlasting joy in seeing the

00:38:13.330 --> 00:38:20.850
<v Speaker0>and savoring his infinite beauty. Number two from C.S. Lewis in the book Miracles.

00:38:21.070 --> 00:38:26.130
<v Speaker0>In the earliest days of Christianity, an apostle was first and foremost a man

00:38:26.130 --> 00:38:29.050
<v Speaker0>who claimed to be an eyewitness of the resurrection.

00:38:29.110 --> 00:38:37.110
<v Speaker0>As this qualification suggests, to preach Christianity meant primarily to preach the resurrection.

00:38:37.110 --> 00:38:44.510
<v Speaker0>The resurrection is the central theme in every Christian sermon reported in the book of Acts.

00:38:44.770 --> 00:38:51.530
<v Speaker0>The resurrection and its consequences were the gospel or good news which the Christians brought.

00:38:51.810 --> 00:38:56.970
<v Speaker0>Number three, Tim Keller from his excellent apologetics book, The Reason for God.

00:38:57.150 --> 00:39:02.110
<v Speaker0>If Jesus rose from the dead, then you have to accept all that he said.

00:39:02.270 --> 00:39:06.710
<v Speaker0>If he didn't rise from the dead, then why worry about any of what he said?

00:39:06.710 --> 00:39:11.530
<v Speaker0>The issue on which everything hangs is not whether or not you like his teaching,

00:39:11.710 --> 00:39:14.450
<v Speaker0>but whether or not he rose from the dead.

00:39:14.730 --> 00:39:17.710
<v Speaker0>Number four, my guy, Charles Spurgeon.

00:39:18.030 --> 00:39:22.570
<v Speaker0>Christianity stands or falls with the resurrection of its founder.

00:39:22.870 --> 00:39:27.050
<v Speaker0>No man can be a Christian and doubt the resurrection of the Lord.

00:39:27.190 --> 00:39:29.330
<v Speaker0>If that had not happened...

00:39:29.381 --> 00:39:33.821
<v Speaker0>The whole matter would have been proved an imposture.

00:39:34.141 --> 00:39:39.101
<v Speaker0>Number five, H.B. Charles from his sermon, Case Closed.

00:39:39.281 --> 00:39:45.281
<v Speaker0>Ephesians 1, 20-21 says, God raised Jesus from the dead and seated him at his

00:39:45.281 --> 00:39:49.901
<v Speaker0>right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power

00:39:49.901 --> 00:39:52.941
<v Speaker0>and dominion and above every name that is named,

00:39:53.101 --> 00:39:55.821
<v Speaker0>not only in this age, but also in the one to come.

00:39:55.941 --> 00:40:02.341
<v Speaker0>The one who died on the cross and rose from the dead is now seated at the right hand of God.

00:40:02.541 --> 00:40:08.601
<v Speaker0>Psalm 110 verse 1 reads, The Lord said to my Lord, sit at my right hand until

00:40:08.601 --> 00:40:11.361
<v Speaker0>I make your enemies your footstool.

00:40:11.541 --> 00:40:17.081
<v Speaker0>The Christ of the empty tomb is the Christ of the occupied throne.

00:40:17.381 --> 00:40:23.261
<v Speaker0>Next, another Spurgeon quote who says, The whole system of Christianity rests

00:40:23.261 --> 00:40:25.961
<v Speaker0>upon the fact that Christ is risen from the dead.

00:40:25.961 --> 00:40:32.421
<v Speaker0>For if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also

00:40:32.421 --> 00:40:34.821
<v Speaker0>vain. Ye are yet in your sins.

00:40:35.001 --> 00:40:39.101
<v Speaker0>The divinity of Christ finds its surest proof in his resurrection,

00:40:39.101 --> 00:40:43.921
<v Speaker0>since he was declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit

00:40:43.921 --> 00:40:46.601
<v Speaker0>of holiness by the resurrection from the dead.

00:40:46.601 --> 00:40:51.921
<v Speaker0>It would not be unreasonable to doubt his deity if he had not risen.

00:40:51.921 --> 00:40:55.841
<v Speaker0>Our justification, that choice blessing of the covenant,

00:40:56.081 --> 00:41:01.021
<v Speaker0>is linked with Christ's triumphant victory over death in the grave,

00:41:01.021 --> 00:41:03.501
<v Speaker0>for he was delivered up for our

00:41:03.501 --> 00:41:08.441
<v Speaker0>offenses and was raised again for our justification, and most certainly...

00:41:09.144 --> 00:41:15.324
<v Speaker0>Our ultimate resurrection rests here, for if the Spirit of him that raised up

00:41:15.324 --> 00:41:17.704
<v Speaker0>Jesus from the dead dwell in you,

00:41:17.904 --> 00:41:22.824
<v Speaker0>he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies

00:41:22.824 --> 00:41:25.224
<v Speaker0>by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

00:41:25.404 --> 00:41:28.944
<v Speaker0>If Christ be not risen, then we shall not rise.

00:41:28.944 --> 00:41:34.424
<v Speaker0>But if he be risen, then they who are asleep in Christ have not perished,

00:41:34.484 --> 00:41:37.964
<v Speaker0>but in their flesh shall surely behold their God.

00:41:37.964 --> 00:41:43.404
<v Speaker0>Thus, the silver thread of resurrection runs through all the believer's blessings

00:41:43.404 --> 00:41:49.844
<v Speaker0>from his regeneration onwards to his eternal glory and binds them all together.

00:41:50.164 --> 00:41:55.904
<v Speaker0>Number seven, G.K. Chesterton, who wrote, Jesus's resurrection is the ground

00:41:55.904 --> 00:42:00.444
<v Speaker0>and basis of all true love, hope, and joy.

00:42:00.644 --> 00:42:05.164
<v Speaker0>For if Jesus is still in the grave, then all of humanity will remain in the

00:42:05.164 --> 00:42:11.644
<v Speaker0>grave too. But he is not in the grave, and this makes all the difference.

00:42:12.104 --> 00:42:17.264
<v Speaker0>Number eight, Chuck Colson, Charles Colson. He says, I know the resurrection

00:42:17.264 --> 00:42:20.784
<v Speaker0>is a fact, and Watergate proved it to me. How?

00:42:20.984 --> 00:42:25.884
<v Speaker0>Because 12 men testified they had seen Jesus raised from the dead.

00:42:26.084 --> 00:42:30.564
<v Speaker0>Then they proclaimed that truth for 40 years, never once denying it.

00:42:30.684 --> 00:42:34.964
<v Speaker0>Everyone was beaten, tortured, stoned, and put in prison. They would not have

00:42:34.964 --> 00:42:37.004
<v Speaker0>endured that if it weren't true.

00:42:37.364 --> 00:42:41.484
<v Speaker0>Watergate embroiled 12 of the most powerful men in the world,

00:42:41.524 --> 00:42:44.764
<v Speaker0>and they couldn't keep alive for three weeks.

00:42:44.964 --> 00:42:49.264
<v Speaker0>You're telling me 12 apostles could keep alive for 40 years?

00:42:49.704 --> 00:42:51.044
<v Speaker0>Absolutely impossible.

00:42:51.806 --> 00:42:57.106
<v Speaker0>Number nine, Charles Spurgeon again. Now soul, if thou would be saved before

00:42:57.106 --> 00:43:02.086
<v Speaker0>all things, it is necessary that thou should trust thy soul in the hands of

00:43:02.086 --> 00:43:03.886
<v Speaker0>God, the faithful creator.

00:43:04.306 --> 00:43:08.686
<v Speaker0>Beholding ever associated with those hands, the Lord Jesus Christ,

00:43:09.066 --> 00:43:13.506
<v Speaker0>God and man, who has died and risen again to put away thy sin.

00:43:13.746 --> 00:43:21.506
<v Speaker0>Such a faith now exercised will save thee at once and will save thee forever and ever.

00:43:21.806 --> 00:43:26.606
<v Speaker0>That's from Spurgeon's sermon, The Two Pillars of Salvation,

00:43:26.866 --> 00:43:29.606
<v Speaker0>which he preached in 1894.

00:43:30.006 --> 00:43:33.066
<v Speaker0>And number 10 from D.A. Carson.

00:43:33.306 --> 00:43:38.786
<v Speaker0>The entire Bible pivots on one weekend in Jerusalem about 2,000 years ago.

00:43:39.006 --> 00:43:43.726
<v Speaker0>Attempts to make sense of the Bible that do not give prolonged thought to integrating

00:43:43.726 --> 00:43:48.286
<v Speaker0>the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus are doomed to failure,

00:43:48.526 --> 00:43:51.606
<v Speaker0>at best exercises in irrelevance.

00:43:51.766 --> 00:43:54.986
<v Speaker0>Well, let me give you one more bonus because it was too good not to include.

00:43:55.226 --> 00:44:02.346
<v Speaker0>This is number 11 from Yaroslav Pelikan, who says, if Christ is not risen, nothing else matters.

00:44:02.566 --> 00:44:05.966
<v Speaker0>And if Christ is risen, nothing else matters.

00:44:06.226 --> 00:44:10.346
<v Speaker0>That's one you can ponder on for the rest of the afternoon. As promised at the

00:44:10.346 --> 00:44:14.726
<v Speaker0>beginning, let's talk a little bit about the question that as a pastor,

00:44:14.726 --> 00:44:20.626
<v Speaker0>I'm asked all the time, do dogs go to heaven? Will my pet be in heaven?

00:44:20.846 --> 00:44:25.426
<v Speaker0>Will my kitty cat, my hamster, my dog that died, our dog that died,

00:44:25.706 --> 00:44:30.406
<v Speaker0>little Cooper, he died a few years ago. He was way too young. It broke our hearts.

00:44:30.726 --> 00:44:34.926
<v Speaker0>Will such beasts somehow, someway make it into heaven?

00:44:35.046 --> 00:44:39.046
<v Speaker0>It's a great question. And I've always answered it in part by pointing to the

00:44:39.046 --> 00:44:43.506
<v Speaker0>fact that many resurrection passages in the Bible, especially in the Old Testament.

00:44:43.846 --> 00:44:46.206
<v Speaker0>Do indeed mention animals in

00:44:46.288 --> 00:44:51.108
<v Speaker0>in the resurrection. Does that mean animals will be resurrected?

00:44:51.428 --> 00:44:55.108
<v Speaker0>Now, obviously, I don't know the answer to that question, but C.S.

00:44:55.128 --> 00:45:02.688
<v Speaker0>Lewis, in his book, The Problem of Pain, gives a very thoughtful answer to the question.

00:45:02.888 --> 00:45:05.768
<v Speaker0>And look, let me just be straight with you. It's pretty deep.

00:45:05.928 --> 00:45:10.048
<v Speaker0>You're probably going to want to listen to this and then come read it,

00:45:10.128 --> 00:45:13.428
<v Speaker0>and I will have it included in total at our website,

00:45:13.628 --> 00:45:18.128
<v Speaker0>everychurchflourishing.com, in the episode 10 show notes.

00:45:18.248 --> 00:45:21.908
<v Speaker0>But this is what Lewis himself says about the question.

00:45:22.128 --> 00:45:26.828
<v Speaker0>It's deep, like I said, so think. Man was appointed by God to have dominion

00:45:26.828 --> 00:45:31.968
<v Speaker0>over the beasts, and everything a man does to an animal is either a lawful exercise

00:45:31.968 --> 00:45:35.788
<v Speaker0>or a sacrilegious abuse of an authority by divine right.

00:45:35.928 --> 00:45:40.548
<v Speaker0>The tame animal is therefore, in the deepest sense, the only natural animal,

00:45:40.548 --> 00:45:44.608
<v Speaker0>The only one we see occupying the place it was made to occupy,

00:45:44.608 --> 00:45:50.068
<v Speaker0>and it is on the tame animal that we must base all our doctrine of beasts.

00:45:50.288 --> 00:45:56.968
<v Speaker0>Now, it will be seen that insofar as the tame animal has a real self or personality,

00:45:56.968 --> 00:46:00.448
<v Speaker0>it owes this almost entirely to its master.

00:46:00.836 --> 00:46:07.316
<v Speaker0>If a good sheepdog seems almost human, that is because a good shepherd has made it so.

00:46:07.516 --> 00:46:12.436
<v Speaker0>I've already noted, says Lewis, the mysterious force of the word in, I-N.

00:46:12.596 --> 00:46:16.596
<v Speaker0>I do not take all the senses of it in the New Testament to be identical,

00:46:16.596 --> 00:46:21.256
<v Speaker0>so that man is in Christ, in Christ in God, in the Holy Spirit in the church,

00:46:21.496 --> 00:46:25.576
<v Speaker0>and also in the individual believer in exactly the same sense.

00:46:25.716 --> 00:46:30.436
<v Speaker0>They may be senses that rhyme or correspond rather than a single sense.

00:46:30.436 --> 00:46:35.676
<v Speaker0>I'm now going to suggest, says Lewis, though with great readiness to be set

00:46:35.676 --> 00:46:40.156
<v Speaker0>right by real theologians, that there may be a sense corresponding.

00:46:40.436 --> 00:46:48.936
<v Speaker0>Though not identical with these, in which those beasts that attain a real self are in their masters.

00:46:48.936 --> 00:46:53.336
<v Speaker0>That is to say, you must not think of a beast by itself and call that a personality

00:46:53.336 --> 00:46:56.496
<v Speaker0>and then inquire whether God will raise and bless that.

00:46:56.496 --> 00:47:02.296
<v Speaker0>You must take the whole context in which the beast acquires its selfhood,

00:47:02.456 --> 00:47:06.556
<v Speaker0>mainly the good man and the good wife ruling their children and their beasts

00:47:06.556 --> 00:47:08.076
<v Speaker0>in their good homestead.

00:47:08.236 --> 00:47:16.576
<v Speaker0>That whole context may be regarded as a body in the Pauline or a closely sub-Pauline sense,

00:47:16.824 --> 00:47:22.264
<v Speaker0>and how much of that body may be raised with the good man and the good wife who can predict.

00:47:22.264 --> 00:47:27.824
<v Speaker0>So much, presumably, as is necessary, not only for the glory of God and the

00:47:27.824 --> 00:47:33.564
<v Speaker0>beatitude of the human pair, but for that particular glory and that particular beatitude,

00:47:33.784 --> 00:47:38.344
<v Speaker0>which is eternally colored by that particular terrestrial experience.

00:47:38.344 --> 00:47:44.304
<v Speaker0>And in this way, it seems to me possible that certain animals may have an immortality

00:47:44.304 --> 00:47:50.864
<v Speaker0>Not in themselves, says Lewis, but in the immortality of their masters.

00:47:51.184 --> 00:47:56.044
<v Speaker0>And the difficulty about personal identity in a creature barely personal disappears

00:47:56.044 --> 00:48:00.464
<v Speaker0>when the creature is thus kept in its proper context.

00:48:00.464 --> 00:48:05.464
<v Speaker0>If you ask concerning an animal thus raised as a member of the whole body of

00:48:05.464 --> 00:48:08.564
<v Speaker0>the homestead, where its personal identity resides.

00:48:08.944 --> 00:48:14.404
<v Speaker0>I answer, where its identity always did reside, even in the earthly life,

00:48:14.504 --> 00:48:19.624
<v Speaker0>in its relation to the body, and especially to the master who is the head of that body.

00:48:19.764 --> 00:48:23.224
<v Speaker0>In other words, the man will know his dog, the dog will know its master,

00:48:23.404 --> 00:48:25.744
<v Speaker0>and in knowing him will be itself.

00:48:25.984 --> 00:48:30.124
<v Speaker0>Now look, that's pretty deep and worth exploring.

00:48:30.344 --> 00:48:35.964
<v Speaker0>Basically, I think what Lewis is saying is that the personality of dogs,

00:48:36.144 --> 00:48:39.584
<v Speaker0>other pets as well, are echoes of their master.

00:48:39.904 --> 00:48:43.424
<v Speaker0>And in a sense, and many of us who have had pets have felt this,

00:48:43.744 --> 00:48:49.204
<v Speaker0>the dogs, cats, beloved animals are part of themselves in some ways.

00:48:49.344 --> 00:48:54.524
<v Speaker0>And Lewis is saying, in appalling sense of understanding of the body,

00:48:54.664 --> 00:48:59.844
<v Speaker0>not merely being the human body, but perhaps other things attached to it.

00:49:00.152 --> 00:49:07.232
<v Speaker0>Might not animals be also considered to be part of the body that will be resurrected?

00:49:07.452 --> 00:49:12.452
<v Speaker0>I'm not sure Lewis is right, and he himself said, I'm not sure I'm right.

00:49:12.592 --> 00:49:16.112
<v Speaker0>But I will say that in answering that question, I've never really considered

00:49:16.112 --> 00:49:20.332
<v Speaker0>that perspective before, and it's pretty deep, and it's pretty fascinating.

00:49:20.572 --> 00:49:25.952
<v Speaker0>What do you think will God resurrect beloved pets?

00:49:26.272 --> 00:49:29.812
<v Speaker0>I'd love to hear from you, and you can reach us through our website,

00:49:29.812 --> 00:49:33.692
<v Speaker0>either by recording a voicemail or sending a message.

00:49:34.072 --> 00:49:40.572
<v Speaker0>Our website is everychurchflourishing.com. That's everychurchflourishing.com.

00:49:40.712 --> 00:49:46.272
<v Speaker0>Please do leave us a message, weigh in. We'll read your responses on the air, so to speak.

00:49:46.392 --> 00:49:50.612
<v Speaker0>And if you have a chance, run on over to Apple Podcasts and leave us a review.

00:49:50.772 --> 00:49:55.672
<v Speaker0>We will see you next week when we will have part two of our roundtable.

00:49:55.672 --> 00:50:00.112
<v Speaker0>And we've got lots more great episodes coming up to look forward to.

00:50:00.232 --> 00:50:03.432
<v Speaker0>Thanks for listening. Good day to you and Godspeed.

WEBVTT

00:00:14.649 --> 00:00:18.469
<v Speaker0>Leaders and pastors find health, encouragement, practical advice,

00:00:18.869 --> 00:00:22.469
<v Speaker0>soul care, and resources that work together to build up your local fellowship

00:00:22.469 --> 00:00:24.129
<v Speaker0>and the broader kingdom of God.

00:00:24.309 --> 00:00:26.389
<v Speaker0>Join hosts, Pastor Chris Cole

00:00:26.389 --> 00:00:30.689
<v Speaker0>and Dr. Chase Thompson from the Great Commission Association, led by Dr.

00:00:30.829 --> 00:00:34.549
<v Speaker0>Mike Stewart, as they explore the frontiers of ministry and aim for the goal

00:00:34.549 --> 00:00:36.129
<v Speaker0>of making every church flourish.

00:00:36.369 --> 00:00:42.349
<v Speaker0>And welcome into episode number 10 of the Every Church Flourishing Podcast by

00:00:42.349 --> 00:00:49.209
<v Speaker0>the Great Commission Association of California. Our website is everychurchflourishing.com.

00:00:49.329 --> 00:00:53.349
<v Speaker0>And today we have a great roundtable of guests for you, including Great Commission

00:00:53.349 --> 00:00:54.829
<v Speaker0>Association Director Dr.

00:00:54.949 --> 00:01:00.409
<v Speaker0>Michael Stewart, Seaside, California Pastor Grant Combs, and former missionary

00:01:00.409 --> 00:01:05.989
<v Speaker0>pastor and current president of the Great Commission Training Institution, Dr.

00:01:06.149 --> 00:01:09.889
<v Speaker0>Chris Smith. And in today's roundtable, We're going to discuss relationships

00:01:09.889 --> 00:01:14.349
<v Speaker0>in the church and hit on some really important and deep questions.

00:01:14.549 --> 00:01:18.529
<v Speaker0>Can pastors have real friendships with church members?

00:01:18.809 --> 00:01:22.629
<v Speaker0>How are deep-rooted friendships made in the church?

00:01:22.809 --> 00:01:27.589
<v Speaker0>There's a combination of factors that work together to keep pastors isolated.

00:01:27.589 --> 00:01:31.489
<v Speaker0>How can pastors and church leaders guard against that?

00:01:31.649 --> 00:01:37.449
<v Speaker0>We're also going to have 10 great resurrection quotes for your Easter sermon.

00:01:37.729 --> 00:01:41.849
<v Speaker0>Coming up this week, and we're going to hear from C.S. Lewis on whether or not

00:01:41.849 --> 00:01:44.629
<v Speaker0>our beloved pets go to heaven.

00:01:44.849 --> 00:01:51.529
<v Speaker0>Yes, he has an opinion on that, and yes, he actually makes a really profound case that they do.

00:01:51.769 --> 00:01:56.329
<v Speaker0>We're also going to be talking about the loneliness epidemic among pastors and

00:01:56.329 --> 00:01:59.649
<v Speaker0>church leaders and about how pastors, generally men,

00:01:59.969 --> 00:02:05.449
<v Speaker0>don't admit their problems and pains very easily, and they usually just hero

00:02:05.449 --> 00:02:07.709
<v Speaker0>up and pretend like everything is fine.

00:02:08.033 --> 00:02:12.433
<v Speaker0>When they are actually starved for deep friendships and relationships.

00:02:12.713 --> 00:02:15.793
<v Speaker0>And we're going to close out with a delicious soda review.

00:02:15.953 --> 00:02:21.573
<v Speaker0>So we had a bit of a technical glitch on our introductions to the roundtable panel today.

00:02:21.733 --> 00:02:26.833
<v Speaker0>I'm going to go ahead and introduce our guests now. The first voice you're going to hear will be Dr.

00:02:27.013 --> 00:02:31.773
<v Speaker0>Chris Smith, who, like I said, leads the Great Commission Training Institution,

00:02:31.773 --> 00:02:37.113
<v Speaker0>which is a mobile ministry-based school that focuses on training pastors and

00:02:37.113 --> 00:02:43.473
<v Speaker0>church leaders in both theology and practical ministry through some really excellent online classes.

00:02:43.473 --> 00:02:47.993
<v Speaker0>After that, you're going to hear from Grant Combs, who has pastored Lighthouse

00:02:47.993 --> 00:02:53.733
<v Speaker0>Baptist Church in Seaside for the past 11 years and is a 25-year resident of

00:02:53.733 --> 00:02:55.673
<v Speaker0>the beautiful Monterey Peninsula.

00:02:55.933 --> 00:03:00.513
<v Speaker0>And joining me on this episode and the next is co-host, as you've already heard,

00:03:00.713 --> 00:03:03.933
<v Speaker0>is Dr. Michael Stewart, the president of the GCA.

00:03:04.233 --> 00:03:09.073
<v Speaker0>And that GCA, Great Commission Association, is a group of nearly 100 Baptist

00:03:09.073 --> 00:03:13.833
<v Speaker0>churches that stretch from San Francisco down to Santa Barbara.

00:03:14.013 --> 00:03:18.753
<v Speaker0>In other words, from the setting of the detective TV show Monk all the way down

00:03:18.753 --> 00:03:21.993
<v Speaker0>to the setting of the detective TV show Psych.

00:03:22.233 --> 00:03:27.293
<v Speaker0>And there has been rumors that both Sean Spencer and Adrian Monk come to Dr.

00:03:27.513 --> 00:03:30.973
<v Speaker0>Stewart for both crime-fighting advice and other counseling,

00:03:30.973 --> 00:03:35.553
<v Speaker0>but honestly, I've been unable to verify those rumors to this point. Maybe...

00:03:35.868 --> 00:03:41.268
<v Speaker0>We will cover that in a future interview. But for now, let's dive into a very

00:03:41.268 --> 00:03:44.888
<v Speaker0>fun but also very revealing roundtable discussion.

00:03:45.148 --> 00:03:49.368
<v Speaker0>So right now, we have a roundtable. We're going to talk a little bit about the

00:03:49.368 --> 00:03:52.908
<v Speaker0>loneliness epidemic among pastors and church leaders.

00:03:53.088 --> 00:03:56.868
<v Speaker0>We're joined by GCA head Dr. Mike Stewart, also Dr.

00:03:56.968 --> 00:04:01.488
<v Speaker0>Chris Smith, and Pastor Grant Combs, all from the Central California area.

00:04:01.488 --> 00:04:06.528
<v Speaker0>Guys, I have some really alarming statistics that we need to talk through and

00:04:06.528 --> 00:04:08.468
<v Speaker0>kind of weigh the implications of.

00:04:08.708 --> 00:04:14.008
<v Speaker0>There are approximately, according to the Barna Group, two-thirds of pastors

00:04:14.008 --> 00:04:21.028
<v Speaker0>right now, 65% say that they have significant, regular, ongoing feelings of

00:04:21.028 --> 00:04:22.728
<v Speaker0>loneliness and isolation.

00:04:22.888 --> 00:04:27.588
<v Speaker0>And that is a big increase just in the last 11 years.

00:04:27.868 --> 00:04:32.128
<v Speaker0>In 2015, it was 42%. Now it's 65%.

00:04:32.128 --> 00:04:36.288
<v Speaker0>And same thing from 2015 to 2023,

00:04:36.848 --> 00:04:43.808
<v Speaker0>the percentage of pastors who feel like they have true friends was at 34% in

00:04:43.808 --> 00:04:48.408
<v Speaker0>2015, and it's now 19% in 2023.

00:04:48.988 --> 00:04:53.528
<v Speaker0>So those are scary statistics. Some of that is obviously the pandemic,

00:04:53.908 --> 00:04:57.788
<v Speaker0>but they're also, people are saying that even Even post-pandemic,

00:04:57.988 --> 00:05:02.128
<v Speaker0>their loneliness is increasing among church leaders and pastors.

00:05:02.348 --> 00:05:06.988
<v Speaker0>What do you guys think explains that? Part of it is, as a pastor,

00:05:07.388 --> 00:05:11.608
<v Speaker0>you are limited in what kind of friends that you can have sometimes,

00:05:11.628 --> 00:05:16.928
<v Speaker0>because some pastors where, to even the connection with other pastors, you

00:05:17.107 --> 00:05:24.047
<v Speaker0>They don't have those relationships. They're very busy with their family or their church.

00:05:24.187 --> 00:05:30.387
<v Speaker0>And it's difficult, it's complicated to have relationships, like close relationships,

00:05:30.727 --> 00:05:34.847
<v Speaker0>with people within the church. So I think that's a big part of it.

00:05:34.987 --> 00:05:40.887
<v Speaker0>So they feel disconnected, they feel lonely, because they, without not being

00:05:40.887 --> 00:05:44.367
<v Speaker0>in their immediate circle, the people around them, And those natural people

00:05:44.367 --> 00:05:47.767
<v Speaker0>that you would connect with at like a workplace, it makes it more difficult.

00:05:48.047 --> 00:05:52.127
<v Speaker0>I just think it's a really important topic. I think some of it is expectations.

00:05:52.327 --> 00:05:58.047
<v Speaker0>We all kind of start thinking that we are going to like build community in a

00:05:58.047 --> 00:06:03.087
<v Speaker0>church and big ideas about connecting. And I use the word family a lot. Yeah.

00:06:03.523 --> 00:06:09.863
<v Speaker0>The truth is, probably organizationally, the pastor cares about the church a

00:06:09.863 --> 00:06:13.183
<v Speaker0>lot more than most of the people that attend the church.

00:06:13.343 --> 00:06:16.703
<v Speaker0>And so you say, man, I'm going to pour my whole life into this.

00:06:16.803 --> 00:06:19.723
<v Speaker0>And for a large number of people, it's just where they go to church,

00:06:19.863 --> 00:06:22.303
<v Speaker0>which is no small thing. It's a really important thing.

00:06:22.403 --> 00:06:27.143
<v Speaker0>But as far as like lasting and deep friendships, we don't have a lot of the

00:06:27.143 --> 00:06:29.663
<v Speaker0>same avenues that other people have.

00:06:30.103 --> 00:06:33.783
<v Speaker0>Dr. Chris, you just mentioned like work friends. Like, that's not really a thing.

00:06:33.923 --> 00:06:39.803
<v Speaker0>I think that's a big part of it, too, is that there's a lot of us that are just alone in our offices.

00:06:40.103 --> 00:06:44.303
<v Speaker0>There's not a lot of staff around. There's not a lot of support staff.

00:06:44.463 --> 00:06:49.183
<v Speaker0>There's not a lot of peers at work. Everybody around here either volunteers for you or works for you.

00:06:49.383 --> 00:06:56.123
<v Speaker0>And so to have peers, it's pretty uncommon. And you add that with like, we're so transitory.

00:06:56.283 --> 00:07:02.203
<v Speaker0>Like, I just think maybe 50 or 100 years ago, you got to shepherd the same people

00:07:02.203 --> 00:07:04.263
<v Speaker0>and build relationships over generations.

00:07:04.503 --> 00:07:09.123
<v Speaker0>Like you did weddings and dedicated babies and then did funerals for grandma

00:07:09.123 --> 00:07:12.943
<v Speaker0>and grandpa. And you really were part of the family where, you know,

00:07:12.963 --> 00:07:16.903
<v Speaker0>I think for most of us, even with good, healthy churches, people come and go.

00:07:17.403 --> 00:07:23.423
<v Speaker0>And like, there's no faking deep friendship. It takes years to nurture.

00:07:24.063 --> 00:07:27.723
<v Speaker0>And, you know, many of us have moved from our hometowns to take church.

00:07:27.823 --> 00:07:31.203
<v Speaker0>Oh, I'll follow Jesus anywhere. And that's awesome. And you should.

00:07:31.343 --> 00:07:34.423
<v Speaker0>But when you follow Jesus anywhere, your high school friends aren't going to be there.

00:07:34.543 --> 00:07:39.163
<v Speaker0>And so I do think a big part of it is we want to be people who make healthy

00:07:39.163 --> 00:07:41.303
<v Speaker0>places where people can make friends.

00:07:41.963 --> 00:07:45.783
<v Speaker0>But I don't read a lot of chapters in marriage books about friendship.

00:07:45.783 --> 00:07:49.863
<v Speaker0>I don't read a lot of chapters in ministry helps about friendship.

00:07:50.123 --> 00:07:54.503
<v Speaker0>And the whole thing really has to revolve around, like, do you have some pals?

00:07:54.783 --> 00:07:58.103
<v Speaker0>You know, I don't even know if we think about elder boards, deacon boards as,

00:07:58.343 --> 00:08:00.203
<v Speaker0>man, these should be friend groups, too.

00:08:00.363 --> 00:08:06.803
<v Speaker0>You should be connecting at a heart level. And I've said it a lot.

00:08:06.983 --> 00:08:11.023
<v Speaker0>Like, it's the one thing that I knew ministry life would be hard.

00:08:11.023 --> 00:08:13.923
<v Speaker0>I didn't know that loneliness was going

00:08:13.923 --> 00:08:17.083
<v Speaker0>to be part of it and it absolutely has

00:08:17.083 --> 00:08:20.163
<v Speaker0>been so I don't know that as you know I'm in my 50s now

00:08:20.163 --> 00:08:24.863
<v Speaker0>but I don't know as a mid-20s guy answering a call to ministry I knew it was

00:08:24.863 --> 00:08:29.703
<v Speaker0>going to be answering a call to have some lonely time it would seem like a profession

00:08:29.703 --> 00:08:35.863
<v Speaker0>that on the surface you deal with people just all the time but you're right

00:08:35.863 --> 00:08:37.723
<v Speaker0>it's like water water everywhere,

00:08:38.003 --> 00:08:41.523
<v Speaker0>not a drop to drink, being out in the middle of the ocean. None of that water is freshwater.

00:08:41.743 --> 00:08:45.923
<v Speaker0>So Dr. Stewart, you work as the director of the Great Commission Association.

00:08:45.963 --> 00:08:49.543
<v Speaker0>You work with dozens, if not hundreds of pastors.

00:08:49.803 --> 00:08:55.023
<v Speaker0>Are you hearing this kind of thing from them? Do they talk to you about loneliness?

00:08:55.363 --> 00:08:59.563
<v Speaker0>My sense of pastors is they clam up about those kinds of issues.

00:08:59.723 --> 00:09:02.343
<v Speaker0>But what about you? Do you hear about this from time to time?

00:09:02.883 --> 00:09:08.763
<v Speaker0>No, I don't think this is, This is not part of most men's makeup to complain

00:09:08.763 --> 00:09:11.203
<v Speaker0>about the things that they don't have.

00:09:11.383 --> 00:09:16.683
<v Speaker0>They're going to hero up and bear the cross. And, you know, this is part of the price.

00:09:16.923 --> 00:09:21.923
<v Speaker0>What struck me, Chase, from the statistics, and I think some of the things that

00:09:21.923 --> 00:09:27.163
<v Speaker0>have been shared are always been systemically a part of pastoring a group of

00:09:27.163 --> 00:09:30.183
<v Speaker0>people because you love them and you need to lead them.

00:09:30.183 --> 00:09:36.603
<v Speaker0>But being vulnerable in front of them, knowing, thinking that you can trust them with the real you.

00:09:37.237 --> 00:09:40.277
<v Speaker0>That's a risky proposition with a group of people.

00:09:40.497 --> 00:09:44.437
<v Speaker0>And what struck me with what you shared was that even with all those things

00:09:44.437 --> 00:09:48.817
<v Speaker0>being familiar with ministry like that, there's this huge decline going on.

00:09:48.897 --> 00:09:53.537
<v Speaker0>So what's happening in our society? What are we replacing friendship with from

00:09:53.537 --> 00:09:56.297
<v Speaker0>the time that you quoted was 2015 till now?

00:09:56.557 --> 00:10:01.777
<v Speaker0>What has dramatically changed in our world that we are substituting friendship for?

00:10:01.977 --> 00:10:06.057
<v Speaker0>And I'm going to guess that's got to be, we don't call somebody and say,

00:10:06.117 --> 00:10:10.457
<v Speaker0>hey, let's go out to dinner because we were going to watch social media or we

00:10:10.457 --> 00:10:13.877
<v Speaker0>just don't want to mess with people or friendship takes time.

00:10:14.097 --> 00:10:17.537
<v Speaker0>Something that most pastors on Friday night, they're still thinking,

00:10:17.777 --> 00:10:19.717
<v Speaker0>you know, we're consumed Sunday is coming.

00:10:20.357 --> 00:10:25.857
<v Speaker0>So I think it's, I think it's something that God has to start putting inside of us and older pastors.

00:10:26.117 --> 00:10:28.977
<v Speaker0>And it can really be influential to younger pastors.

00:10:29.077 --> 00:10:32.577
<v Speaker0>Hey, reach out and be a friend. I was at a retreat with some pastors a few weeks

00:10:32.577 --> 00:10:34.117
<v Speaker0>ago and we were in a prayer.

00:10:34.257 --> 00:10:37.097
<v Speaker0>They got us up in prayer circles and they're from all over the country.

00:10:37.697 --> 00:10:40.357
<v Speaker0>And they just said, look, and it wasn't part of the program.

00:10:40.497 --> 00:10:42.917
<v Speaker0>Look, you need friends. They said this.

00:10:43.857 --> 00:10:47.397
<v Speaker0>Successful pastor, you need friends. If there's someone around the table that

00:10:47.397 --> 00:10:51.277
<v Speaker0>you felt like talked your language, get their phone number.

00:10:51.417 --> 00:10:55.277
<v Speaker0>And when you leave, write it down and call them in a couple of weeks and tell

00:10:55.277 --> 00:10:56.617
<v Speaker0>them, I'm praying for you.

00:10:56.977 --> 00:11:00.997
<v Speaker0>What's up? And no one took my number, which I was very sad about,

00:11:01.157 --> 00:11:05.297
<v Speaker0>but I took somebody else's number and I'm going to reach out next week.

00:11:05.397 --> 00:11:06.357
<v Speaker0>But it's intentionality.

00:11:06.537 --> 00:11:10.917
<v Speaker0>And I think also we got to be careful because we tell ourselves,

00:11:11.057 --> 00:11:13.957
<v Speaker0>pastors are very, very giving, serving people.

00:11:14.377 --> 00:11:18.697
<v Speaker0>As we tell ourselves, that would be me taking. If I reached out and I need a

00:11:18.697 --> 00:11:22.517
<v Speaker0>friend, that's for me. And I need to be the friend.

00:11:23.545 --> 00:11:26.885
<v Speaker0>That's more of giving. And that might not be what you need right now.

00:11:27.065 --> 00:11:31.585
<v Speaker0>You might need some just relaxing with someone who enjoys doing what you do,

00:11:31.845 --> 00:11:36.265
<v Speaker0>which is good, wholesome things that you can rejoice with and you like and you like to do together.

00:11:36.425 --> 00:11:41.385
<v Speaker0>But there's something happening in the society. And I think I read this trend among all men

00:11:41.819 --> 00:11:46.639
<v Speaker0>All men are more lonely than they've ever been. You know, I think when we talk

00:11:46.639 --> 00:11:49.779
<v Speaker0>about friendships, you know, we need genuine friendships.

00:11:50.259 --> 00:11:54.439
<v Speaker0>We need authentic friendship, not just transactional or to get something.

00:11:54.619 --> 00:11:59.959
<v Speaker0>And I think in ministry, many times our relationships can become transactional.

00:12:00.159 --> 00:12:06.539
<v Speaker0>They are, okay, I'm going to be nice to this person so that I can get something

00:12:06.539 --> 00:12:09.319
<v Speaker0>in return. And maybe we don't say that.

00:12:09.419 --> 00:12:12.279
<v Speaker0>We probably shouldn't say that, right? But back in our mind.

00:12:12.339 --> 00:12:13.679
<v Speaker0>I've never said that to you, Chris.

00:12:14.099 --> 00:12:18.219
<v Speaker0>That's good. That's good. I've never said it out loud, but I apologize right now.

00:12:19.919 --> 00:12:24.219
<v Speaker0>And I think what rolls into this as well is our individualistic culture.

00:12:24.659 --> 00:12:28.759
<v Speaker0>You know, as in the United States, we are very individualistic.

00:12:28.879 --> 00:12:33.199
<v Speaker0>Other cultures, they're more community-oriented. So I think we just have to

00:12:33.199 --> 00:12:35.119
<v Speaker0>be self-aware of these things.

00:12:35.199 --> 00:12:38.859
<v Speaker0>And as a pastor, it's even more that we need this more.

00:12:38.859 --> 00:12:44.179
<v Speaker0>And we can't just go by, we can't just coast through life in a way that,

00:12:44.459 --> 00:12:48.459
<v Speaker0>oh, I don't need friendship. I don't need a community, true community,

00:12:48.679 --> 00:12:53.439
<v Speaker0>truly loving other people in a way that's in a peer.

00:12:53.539 --> 00:12:58.739
<v Speaker0>Not that I'm pastoring them, but that we're in this ministry together.

00:12:58.879 --> 00:13:02.059
<v Speaker0>We're in partnership in ministry together. And we have true friends.

00:13:02.219 --> 00:13:03.579
<v Speaker0>I'm part of a group of pastors.

00:13:03.799 --> 00:13:08.059
<v Speaker0>It's a local group. They embody this very well. We get together once a month

00:13:08.059 --> 00:13:10.919
<v Speaker0>for lunch, and there's not a big agenda.

00:13:11.459 --> 00:13:15.679
<v Speaker0>I pray together, get together, talk to each other. But part of that,

00:13:15.819 --> 00:13:17.979
<v Speaker0>I've seen that there's just been an openness.

00:13:18.219 --> 00:13:22.319
<v Speaker0>A lot of them have been together for many, many years. I've only been part of

00:13:22.319 --> 00:13:26.279
<v Speaker0>the group for about eight years, but many of them is like 20 plus years.

00:13:26.599 --> 00:13:31.499
<v Speaker0>And there is a genuine, an authenticness to the time together,

00:13:31.739 --> 00:13:34.339
<v Speaker0>which is what you have to get to as a pastor.

00:13:34.479 --> 00:13:37.239
<v Speaker0>And we have to be intentional about it. It just doesn't happen.

00:13:37.606 --> 00:13:43.566
<v Speaker0>Let's talk about that intentionality, because I will just say something reasonably transparent.

00:13:43.666 --> 00:13:49.286
<v Speaker0>I came from Alabama, 2018, where I had a very deep circle of friends.

00:13:49.786 --> 00:13:58.026
<v Speaker0>Somewhere in the early days of 2018, 2019, I met Pastor Grant at some sort of eating thing.

00:13:58.146 --> 00:14:02.946
<v Speaker0>And I knew immediately that he was my kind of guy, that I could hang out with

00:14:02.946 --> 00:14:08.226
<v Speaker0>this guy and be friends with him. But our connection points since then,

00:14:08.326 --> 00:14:12.886
<v Speaker0>what has that been, almost eight years ago, we actually haven't seen each other very much.

00:14:13.026 --> 00:14:17.266
<v Speaker0>And that tells me we did have coffee three or four weeks ago. It was fantastic.

00:14:17.526 --> 00:14:21.646
<v Speaker0>Confirmed what I sort of innately knew. This is a guy that I really could be

00:14:21.646 --> 00:14:26.606
<v Speaker0>friends with. But there's a combination of factors, I think,

00:14:26.806 --> 00:14:29.646
<v Speaker0>that sort of work together to keep pastors.

00:14:29.846 --> 00:14:35.946
<v Speaker0>There's probably other professions like this, but to keep pastors sort of isolated like that.

00:14:36.106 --> 00:14:41.966
<v Speaker0>So how can we build intentionality in our lives as pastors?

00:14:42.166 --> 00:14:46.006
<v Speaker0>And for you guys, Dr. Stewart and Dr. Smith, you guys sort of more,

00:14:46.166 --> 00:14:49.946
<v Speaker0>your work right now is more with pastors as opposed to pastoring.

00:14:49.946 --> 00:14:54.426
<v Speaker0>So how can you guys and how can the Great Commission Association and how can

00:14:54.426 --> 00:14:58.926
<v Speaker0>other associations facilitate those kind of relationships?

00:14:59.366 --> 00:15:04.866
<v Speaker0>Always, you can elevate the issue. That's one of the things an association can do.

00:15:04.946 --> 00:15:09.006
<v Speaker0>It can bring things forward for pastors to contemplate and pray about themselves.

00:15:09.206 --> 00:15:13.626
<v Speaker0>As you were talking, Chase, I'm thinking, you know, is that a part of my prayer

00:15:13.626 --> 00:15:17.126
<v Speaker0>life before God? God, let me find a Jonathan.

00:15:17.606 --> 00:15:23.026
<v Speaker0>Let me find a David. let me find a relationship. Send someone to me that's important

00:15:23.026 --> 00:15:26.266
<v Speaker0>to you and important to me in my life. If we're not.

00:15:26.867 --> 00:15:31.007
<v Speaker0>And I'm not praying that way, perhaps, because I don't see that my greatest need.

00:15:31.207 --> 00:15:34.647
<v Speaker0>I have other things that are my greatest need that I think is my greatest need.

00:15:34.787 --> 00:15:39.407
<v Speaker0>So I would say we can elevate, but also it's through the ministry we do through

00:15:39.407 --> 00:15:43.007
<v Speaker0>the care ambassadors and other things. We try to create opportunities.

00:15:43.207 --> 00:15:44.727
<v Speaker0>You can't make people be friends.

00:15:45.307 --> 00:15:48.027
<v Speaker0>That's right. You can get them around where they can be friendly.

00:15:48.327 --> 00:15:53.047
<v Speaker0>But you also have to teach, teach as, hey, is there somebody in this circle

00:15:53.047 --> 00:15:55.907
<v Speaker0>or a circle close to you that you get to be the real you?

00:15:55.907 --> 00:16:00.807
<v Speaker0>When you're ticked off about A, B, C, or D, you can pick up the phone and say,

00:16:00.907 --> 00:16:03.827
<v Speaker0>I just got to tell somebody that and find out if I'm crazy.

00:16:04.496 --> 00:16:08.876
<v Speaker0>And they can hear you say stuff that doesn't have a Bible verse every three lines.

00:16:09.236 --> 00:16:13.856
<v Speaker0>And I can't say that's a high priority, been a high priority for us.

00:16:13.996 --> 00:16:16.296
<v Speaker0>We're always talking about the church and the function.

00:16:16.456 --> 00:16:20.436
<v Speaker0>We're not really talking about the heart need of the pastor many times.

00:16:20.716 --> 00:16:25.216
<v Speaker0>You know, when you say be the real you, I think that that is just something

00:16:25.216 --> 00:16:26.416
<v Speaker0>we have to just acknowledge.

00:16:26.656 --> 00:16:30.376
<v Speaker0>I mean, we've all kind of been burned going, oh, I think this is a real friend

00:16:30.376 --> 00:16:35.596
<v Speaker0>and I'm going to open up. And then you find out that for whatever reason they

00:16:35.596 --> 00:16:38.776
<v Speaker0>move, there's some brokenness, you drift apart, whatever it is.

00:16:39.016 --> 00:16:43.816
<v Speaker0>And so I think they taped you for a podcast session that they played for everybody. Exactly.

00:16:44.196 --> 00:16:45.736
<v Speaker0>Thought it was just coffee, Chase.

00:16:47.256 --> 00:16:50.856
<v Speaker0>Content's king. What are we going to do? But to have the idea that like,

00:16:50.956 --> 00:16:53.256
<v Speaker0>don't give up, you know, it does take time.

00:16:53.536 --> 00:16:57.636
<v Speaker0>And also like, this is not an all or nothing proposition.

00:16:57.636 --> 00:17:02.496
<v Speaker0>I always counsel, especially young men, but there's the number of people that

00:17:02.496 --> 00:17:06.996
<v Speaker0>really know your heart. It shouldn't be zero, but it shouldn't be a hundred

00:17:06.996 --> 00:17:08.896
<v Speaker0>either. Like, guard your heart.

00:17:09.116 --> 00:17:13.516
<v Speaker0>It's okay to say, not everybody in my life, I need to work on being vulnerable,

00:17:13.516 --> 00:17:15.916
<v Speaker0>so I'm going to spill my guts at every prayer meeting.

00:17:16.056 --> 00:17:20.516
<v Speaker0>No, that's not right either, especially like if you're the people shepherd,

00:17:20.836 --> 00:17:27.976
<v Speaker0>you shouldn't burden them with every drop of, you know, sorrow in your heart at the same time.

00:17:28.136 --> 00:17:30.796
<v Speaker0>It shouldn't be nobody that knows the real you. And, you know,

00:17:30.956 --> 00:17:34.876
<v Speaker0>we'll probably talk about this relationship in other topics today,

00:17:34.936 --> 00:17:36.836
<v Speaker0>but it's got to start with your wife.

00:17:37.364 --> 00:17:41.064
<v Speaker0>You know, God gave you, Tiffany and I talk a lot about like,

00:17:41.224 --> 00:17:45.224
<v Speaker0>people are going to come and go in our lives, but God gave us each other for a lifetime.

00:17:45.564 --> 00:17:50.964
<v Speaker0>And so you have to have male friendship, but to have that idea that God gave me a best friend.

00:17:51.124 --> 00:17:56.104
<v Speaker0>And if I'm not pouring into that relationship, I'm not going to replace that

00:17:56.104 --> 00:17:58.724
<v Speaker0>with dudes in the circle once a month.

00:17:59.424 --> 00:18:03.464
<v Speaker0>And so it's great to have, you know, you need different levels of friendship.

00:18:03.624 --> 00:18:06.284
<v Speaker0>There has to be that most intimate partner in your wife.

00:18:06.584 --> 00:18:11.124
<v Speaker0>And then it's great to seek out. And it's not sinful to make the person that

00:18:11.124 --> 00:18:14.164
<v Speaker0>you share the most with somebody that doesn't go to your church.

00:18:14.264 --> 00:18:17.624
<v Speaker0>In fact, it might be some wisdom to that.

00:18:17.764 --> 00:18:23.564
<v Speaker0>And then to say, you know, to have a bullpen of four or five guys that you just

00:18:23.564 --> 00:18:28.384
<v Speaker0>that are life-giving to be around. and then to have the masses that you're friendly

00:18:28.384 --> 00:18:31.464
<v Speaker0>with and that you're, you know, stable with is great.

00:18:31.624 --> 00:18:34.644
<v Speaker0>But I think to say it's okay that that

00:18:35.041 --> 00:18:39.361
<v Speaker0>Aside from your wife, that that best friend kind of person comes and goes.

00:18:39.661 --> 00:18:41.841
<v Speaker0>My best friend died when we were 37.

00:18:42.361 --> 00:18:46.761
<v Speaker0>And there's no replacing Chad Sluder in my life. It's not going to happen.

00:18:46.901 --> 00:18:48.901
<v Speaker0>But that doesn't mean God has abandoned you.

00:18:49.141 --> 00:18:52.161
<v Speaker0>There's going to be other people who God brings into your life.

00:18:52.281 --> 00:18:55.981
<v Speaker0>And so to just not give up and not be foolish with your heart,

00:18:56.161 --> 00:18:59.761
<v Speaker0>not be reckless with your heart, but also not be jaded and too self-centered

00:18:59.761 --> 00:19:02.681
<v Speaker0>about it and say, yeah, God will bring people into your life.

00:19:02.861 --> 00:19:04.581
<v Speaker0>Go ahead and build those friendships.

00:19:05.041 --> 00:19:08.421
<v Speaker0>That's a good word, to be wise, to be wise in those relationships,

00:19:08.421 --> 00:19:12.381
<v Speaker0>because when you're preaching on Sunday, it's not a therapy session.

00:19:12.381 --> 00:19:16.981
<v Speaker0>And so you give illustrations in a way that is wise and good.

00:19:17.421 --> 00:19:21.341
<v Speaker0>And I think that we, you know, how do you, Chase, you ask, how do we facilitate

00:19:21.341 --> 00:19:22.621
<v Speaker0>these types of relationships?

00:19:23.001 --> 00:19:27.441
<v Speaker0>One, we need to be modeling these types of relationships. We need to be having

00:19:27.441 --> 00:19:32.781
<v Speaker0>these vulnerable, authentic, real relationships. And I think we,

00:19:33.001 --> 00:19:35.001
<v Speaker0>in our role, we can do a lot of connecting.

00:19:35.321 --> 00:19:39.201
<v Speaker0>I remember one pastor I was talking to and he was struggling,

00:19:39.201 --> 00:19:41.761
<v Speaker0>and so we all knew he was struggling.

00:19:41.961 --> 00:19:46.101
<v Speaker0>So I called another pastor and I said, could you check on him?

00:19:46.201 --> 00:19:48.901
<v Speaker0>Could you call him? Could you include him in this specifically?

00:19:49.261 --> 00:19:54.641
<v Speaker0>Can you do this, these specific things? And he did and things improved and just

00:19:54.641 --> 00:19:59.701
<v Speaker0>that friendship, but it did take an intentionality and for us to see it.

00:19:59.701 --> 00:20:05.541
<v Speaker0>So in our role, we need to be able to see what's happening and just really be

00:20:05.541 --> 00:20:09.881
<v Speaker0>sensitive to how the Spirit is moving within a person, a pastor,

00:20:09.881 --> 00:20:12.081
<v Speaker0>or a church and respond accordingly.

00:20:12.321 --> 00:20:15.401
<v Speaker0>Hey, can I ask you guys something? How important is fun in all this?

00:20:15.501 --> 00:20:19.901
<v Speaker0>Because I'll tell you what, like fun is the pathway to intimacy for me,

00:20:20.041 --> 00:20:24.121
<v Speaker0>not the other way around. Like, hey, let's get together in somebody's office

00:20:24.121 --> 00:20:28.881
<v Speaker0>surrounded by a bunch of books and share our heart is just so much harder for

00:20:28.881 --> 00:20:30.321
<v Speaker0>me than playing around a disc golf.

00:20:30.621 --> 00:20:34.461
<v Speaker0>And you know what I'm talking about? Like, I do think that that's a part of

00:20:34.461 --> 00:20:37.341
<v Speaker0>this conversation is that we need to not be afraid to.

00:20:37.904 --> 00:20:41.864
<v Speaker0>Have some fun with others. I was just about ready to invite you to a deep session

00:20:41.864 --> 00:20:47.044
<v Speaker0>at my office, but for friendship, but I'm getting a sense of my...

00:20:47.044 --> 00:20:48.104
<v Speaker0>It's time to be friends right now.

00:20:49.144 --> 00:20:53.104
<v Speaker0>Now we've got it scheduled for the next half hour. You will be my friend.

00:20:54.024 --> 00:20:59.244
<v Speaker0>That's right. Well, men like projects. They like things to do and hanging out

00:20:59.244 --> 00:21:01.384
<v Speaker0>and getting stuff done. That's what they like.

00:21:01.884 --> 00:21:04.304
<v Speaker0>And, you know, I agree with you, Grant. We,

00:21:05.190 --> 00:21:08.910
<v Speaker0>It can get serious when it needs to get serious, but there's got to be some

00:21:08.910 --> 00:21:10.850
<v Speaker0>relationship building that's enjoyable.

00:21:11.150 --> 00:21:14.570
<v Speaker0>Before that, I'm not going to share anything deep with you if I have never spent

00:21:14.570 --> 00:21:19.010
<v Speaker0>time with you. And that time is going to be, what? I'm already in books a lot.

00:21:19.170 --> 00:21:24.570
<v Speaker0>I'm already in, you know, maybe that's the thing, the idea for pastors and more people.

00:21:24.850 --> 00:21:30.310
<v Speaker0>A friend is somebody else I have to get into my life. So we need to relax more.

00:21:30.430 --> 00:21:34.010
<v Speaker0>We need to dedicate some Sabbath time to us having a little enjoyment.

00:21:34.010 --> 00:21:37.930
<v Speaker0>I think that would help all the tension to come off because we,

00:21:38.010 --> 00:21:41.710
<v Speaker0>we have a lot of things that we're responsible for and sometimes they don't go great.

00:21:41.970 --> 00:21:44.870
<v Speaker0>And just getting with somebody and having some fun, man, that would be,

00:21:44.990 --> 00:21:49.010
<v Speaker0>that's, that's a blessing, but it's got to be a rhythm, a rhythm of our life.

00:21:49.010 --> 00:21:54.950
<v Speaker0>Yeah, I think most of the deepest, best conversations, like heart-to-heart kind

00:21:54.950 --> 00:21:58.310
<v Speaker0>of conversations I've had with other men haven't been planned.

00:21:58.550 --> 00:22:02.670
<v Speaker0>They've been in the middle of something else. And when you talk about connecting,

00:22:02.970 --> 00:22:09.170
<v Speaker0>Chris, and that there's no formula to it other than spend enough time that the

00:22:09.170 --> 00:22:13.290
<v Speaker0>conversation comes up, prove yourself trustworthy in small things,

00:22:13.550 --> 00:22:15.650
<v Speaker0>and people will learn to trust you in big things.

00:22:15.650 --> 00:22:21.530
<v Speaker0>Good to have a mix of one-on-one, a mix of a small, smaller situation.

00:22:21.870 --> 00:22:27.050
<v Speaker0>Three or four, and then the bigger group where it could be like 15 to 20.

00:22:27.230 --> 00:22:33.130
<v Speaker0>I think that that helps because one, you might not have as many of these type

00:22:33.130 --> 00:22:37.410
<v Speaker0>of conversations, but at least you're getting to know other people where in

00:22:37.410 --> 00:22:40.650
<v Speaker0>the future you could have those type of conversations.

00:22:40.870 --> 00:22:45.490
<v Speaker0>And not everybody's going to be like what Dr. Mike said, not everybody's going to be friends.

00:22:45.590 --> 00:22:49.950
<v Speaker0>We can't make them be friends. But if we can cultivate that environment of community,

00:22:50.190 --> 00:22:55.150
<v Speaker0>real community, true community, then I believe that it can happen and it does happen.

00:22:55.396 --> 00:22:57.516
<v Speaker0>Pastor Grant, you talked about

00:22:57.516 --> 00:23:03.056
<v Speaker0>kind of the issue of fun. On a recent episode of the show, we had Dr.

00:23:03.396 --> 00:23:07.196
<v Speaker0>C.J. Wan, who is the Director of Mission Operations for the GCA,

00:23:07.316 --> 00:23:13.836
<v Speaker0>and we asked him not too serious question, what kind of people would you want to go on a cruise with?

00:23:13.836 --> 00:23:18.696
<v Speaker0>A group of pastors, a group of denominational leaders, a group of worship leaders.

00:23:18.936 --> 00:23:24.176
<v Speaker0>And both he and I, in discussing that question, were pretty adamant that we

00:23:24.176 --> 00:23:27.896
<v Speaker0>probably would not want to go on a cruise with a bunch of pastors.

00:23:28.136 --> 00:23:32.496
<v Speaker0>And of course, I am a pastor and he's been a pastor. My sense of most pastors

00:23:32.496 --> 00:23:36.276
<v Speaker0>as a person who did not grow up wanting to be a pastor, I went to church,

00:23:36.416 --> 00:23:37.556
<v Speaker0>I didn't dislike pastors,

00:23:37.716 --> 00:23:43.576
<v Speaker0>but I thought they were kind of stuffy and serious and in a sense, not real people.

00:23:43.776 --> 00:23:47.736
<v Speaker0>And so I completely resonate with you when you say, hey, you know,

00:23:47.836 --> 00:23:50.596
<v Speaker0>I want to connect with somebody on a said fun.

00:23:50.936 --> 00:23:53.876
<v Speaker0>And Dr. Stewart mentioned projects. And that is, it's interesting.

00:23:54.056 --> 00:23:57.636
<v Speaker0>Some guys like to have fun together. Some guys like to do projects together.

00:23:57.836 --> 00:24:02.356
<v Speaker0>Most guys don't like to be stuffy together. And I think there's a pressure on

00:24:02.356 --> 00:24:06.176
<v Speaker0>pastors sometimes to act as if they are more.

00:24:06.856 --> 00:24:13.596
<v Speaker0>Elevated and holy and godly than they actually are, which kind of brings me to my next question.

00:24:13.596 --> 00:24:19.636
<v Speaker0>When I was first starting out in ministry, it was fairly common advice for pastors

00:24:19.636 --> 00:24:23.916
<v Speaker0>to either, A, avoid being friends.

00:24:24.276 --> 00:24:30.116
<v Speaker0>Like real friends, with people in your congregation, or B, be extremely careful about it.

00:24:30.276 --> 00:24:35.376
<v Speaker0>And right now at the moment, Dr. Stewart, you are the interim pastor at First Baptist Gilroy.

00:24:35.596 --> 00:24:39.916
<v Speaker0>Pastor Grant, you are pastoring in Seaside. I am pastoring. So beginning with

00:24:39.916 --> 00:24:43.736
<v Speaker0>one of you two guys, what do you think about that advice?

00:24:43.796 --> 00:24:46.676
<v Speaker0>And do you think pastors should follow it?

00:24:46.916 --> 00:24:50.396
<v Speaker0>I'll go to the guy who's doing it 24-7 first, Grant.

00:24:50.751 --> 00:24:56.431
<v Speaker0>Yeah, I think it just takes wisdom. I think that there's wisdom there.

00:24:56.651 --> 00:24:59.391
<v Speaker0>Like a lot of great wisdom, there's tension in the question.

00:24:59.651 --> 00:25:05.831
<v Speaker0>I think that it's wisdom to say, hey, anything you say over game night can and

00:25:05.831 --> 00:25:08.791
<v Speaker0>will be held against you in the quad on Sunday morning.

00:25:08.791 --> 00:25:13.331
<v Speaker0>I think you have to know that, that there's a position that you said yes to,

00:25:13.411 --> 00:25:15.751
<v Speaker0>to be an under-shepherd under Christ,

00:25:15.891 --> 00:25:19.691
<v Speaker0>that these people are going to call you on the worst day of their year,

00:25:19.691 --> 00:25:25.451
<v Speaker0>and they need to know that you have the kind of character and can be serious

00:25:25.451 --> 00:25:29.391
<v Speaker0>and trustworthy, so they're comfortable calling you. You are their pastor.

00:25:29.531 --> 00:25:31.731
<v Speaker0>There's never a moment where you're not their pastor.

00:25:31.891 --> 00:25:35.091
<v Speaker0>That means social media. That means every conversation.

00:25:35.131 --> 00:25:39.091
<v Speaker0>You are always their pastor, and you need to act like it. At the same time,

00:25:39.391 --> 00:25:44.671
<v Speaker0>I think the other side of that same coin is, look, if you're not vulnerable,

00:25:44.971 --> 00:25:49.431
<v Speaker0>if you keep people at arm's length, the number one thing people need to know is that you love them.

00:25:49.651 --> 00:25:54.111
<v Speaker0>And you know what I always pray and is, God, give me not just an agape love

00:25:54.111 --> 00:25:56.471
<v Speaker0>for this congregation, but I want to like them.

00:25:56.651 --> 00:25:59.831
<v Speaker0>Like, I want to be excited when they walk in the room. And you can't really

00:25:59.831 --> 00:26:04.011
<v Speaker0>do that as the expert sage on the stage kind of guy.

00:26:04.171 --> 00:26:08.311
<v Speaker0>I don't show up for a congregation. I show up for these people.

00:26:08.711 --> 00:26:14.871
<v Speaker0>And so, you know, I think when Paul said, man, I've been poured out like a drink offering.

00:26:15.051 --> 00:26:20.151
<v Speaker0>I think there was a lot of different kinds of hurt in that being poured out.

00:26:20.151 --> 00:26:21.691
<v Speaker0>Oh, that's not just he got old.

00:26:21.851 --> 00:26:27.511
<v Speaker0>He's saying, look, my back bears the marks of ministry and I've been abandoned by people.

00:26:27.791 --> 00:26:32.171
<v Speaker0>I mean, so much of his advice to Timothy is, man, you're in a really hard spot.

00:26:32.411 --> 00:26:36.771
<v Speaker0>Just don't leave. Just stay there and keep preaching, dude.

00:26:36.771 --> 00:26:41.891
<v Speaker0>And so to have that, yeah, be wise and guard your heart and at the same time

00:26:41.891 --> 00:26:46.611
<v Speaker0>have enough vulnerability that because I'll tell you the other thing is if you

00:26:46.611 --> 00:26:50.271
<v Speaker0>spend 10 years like I think that's the fastest way to a fall.

00:26:50.724 --> 00:26:55.424
<v Speaker0>Is to just hide who you really are from your congregation. You have to be wise.

00:26:55.604 --> 00:26:59.184
<v Speaker0>Don't burden them with your struggles and sorrows when it's unnecessary.

00:26:59.664 --> 00:27:05.804
<v Speaker0>But, you know, I think maybe 50 years ago, maybe other places in the country,

00:27:06.224 --> 00:27:07.564
<v Speaker0>pastors were on pedestals.

00:27:07.704 --> 00:27:11.684
<v Speaker0>I don't think I'm on a pedestal. I just don't think that's the way people view

00:27:11.684 --> 00:27:15.124
<v Speaker0>their pastor anymore. But they sure do need to know that you're trustworthy.

00:27:15.364 --> 00:27:22.604
<v Speaker0>And so to be vulnerable enough where they know the real you And it's also a reminder...

00:27:23.078 --> 00:27:27.258
<v Speaker0>The real you needs to be a godly person. They need to know the real you and

00:27:27.258 --> 00:27:31.098
<v Speaker0>you be somebody that genuinely loves the Lord and has seen victory over sin

00:27:31.098 --> 00:27:35.758
<v Speaker0>and is somebody that they would be happy to be their pastor.

00:27:35.878 --> 00:27:39.518
<v Speaker0>I think if the problem with vulnerability is that you don't want people to know

00:27:39.518 --> 00:27:44.558
<v Speaker0>that you don't really follow the Lord that closely, then selling insurance is a great occupation.

00:27:44.818 --> 00:27:48.998
<v Speaker0>Go ahead and do it. So I don't know if that was rambly or answered the question,

00:27:48.998 --> 00:27:50.918
<v Speaker0>But I think there has to be wisdom.

00:27:51.058 --> 00:27:54.438
<v Speaker0>I think you can't be completely guarded, and I don't think you can be reckless

00:27:54.438 --> 00:27:57.298
<v Speaker0>with your heart. But somewhere there's wisdom in there somewhere.

00:27:57.558 --> 00:28:01.838
<v Speaker0>That's great. I told our leaders this week, we had a leadership meeting last

00:28:01.838 --> 00:28:04.898
<v Speaker0>week, and I gave a bit of a State of the Union address to them.

00:28:04.998 --> 00:28:10.498
<v Speaker0>And one of the things I said is if the people in the church see us get derailed

00:28:10.498 --> 00:28:17.298
<v Speaker0>by small things, they will themselves get derailed by even smaller things.

00:28:17.298 --> 00:28:21.318
<v Speaker0>Because they'll say, hey, if it took this leader out, this deacon out or whatever,

00:28:21.518 --> 00:28:22.818
<v Speaker0>it certainly will take me out.

00:28:22.938 --> 00:28:26.398
<v Speaker0>Well, Dr. Stewart, you have been interim pastor several times.

00:28:26.538 --> 00:28:30.618
<v Speaker0>And before that, you've been involved in church ministry in every facet.

00:28:30.718 --> 00:28:32.258
<v Speaker0>What's your take on the whole question?

00:28:32.378 --> 00:28:36.838
<v Speaker0>Can pastors be friends, real friends with people in the congregation?

00:28:37.058 --> 00:28:42.658
<v Speaker0>I would say you can be to make that decision that you're going to move forward

00:28:42.658 --> 00:28:46.458
<v Speaker0>towards a deep friendship with somebody who is a member of your church,

00:28:46.458 --> 00:28:51.058
<v Speaker0>needs to be one that is prayed through because they have to be able to handle

00:28:51.058 --> 00:28:52.958
<v Speaker0>it. It is what Grant was saying.

00:28:53.158 --> 00:28:55.318
<v Speaker0>They're going to be your friend, but you're still their pastor.

00:28:55.778 --> 00:29:00.478
<v Speaker0>And so then, you know, we know this when deep trauma happens to a church family

00:29:00.478 --> 00:29:05.738
<v Speaker0>and they tell their pastor all about it and it's some, maybe it's a shame issue or guilt issue.

00:29:06.058 --> 00:29:09.398
<v Speaker0>They have a hard time showing back up in church eventually because when you're

00:29:09.398 --> 00:29:13.618
<v Speaker0>preaching and you're teaching about subjects that may touch on the fabric of

00:29:13.618 --> 00:29:18.118
<v Speaker0>their issue, they can't discern whether you mean them or that you mean the sin.

00:29:18.338 --> 00:29:22.718
<v Speaker0>I'm gonna say there's a difference between us loving our people deeply and becoming

00:29:22.718 --> 00:29:25.018
<v Speaker0>best friends with them. And I think what they want.

00:29:25.554 --> 00:29:30.294
<v Speaker0>They want you to love them deeply. I will say this as a director of missions.

00:29:30.494 --> 00:29:35.994
<v Speaker0>I have pastors, I mean, it's part of my ministry position, when they're discouraged

00:29:35.994 --> 00:29:39.894
<v Speaker0>and thinking about ending their ministry with the congregation.

00:29:40.214 --> 00:29:43.154
<v Speaker0>Many times I will get a call and they want to talk about it.

00:29:43.234 --> 00:29:45.894
<v Speaker0>Kind of like when a pastor gets marriage counseling, someone calls,

00:29:45.974 --> 00:29:46.814
<v Speaker0>we want marriage counseling.

00:29:47.034 --> 00:29:53.534
<v Speaker0>The chances of you coming in in time are minimal. I have a stock question for

00:29:53.534 --> 00:29:56.154
<v Speaker0>them, and this might, this is just me.

00:29:56.354 --> 00:29:59.554
<v Speaker0>I will listen to everything they want to say because they've come to talk,

00:29:59.694 --> 00:30:01.354
<v Speaker0>and they unburdened about, and they're hurt.

00:30:01.634 --> 00:30:05.574
<v Speaker0>And things have happened that in all legitimacy, they should be hurt.

00:30:05.914 --> 00:30:09.074
<v Speaker0>Things have gone down, things have happened. And they will get through,

00:30:09.214 --> 00:30:12.814
<v Speaker0>and I let them finish, and I will tell them, that's a lot.

00:30:13.034 --> 00:30:17.694
<v Speaker0>You're dealing with a lot. My question for you, brother, is do you still love them?

00:30:17.834 --> 00:30:21.394
<v Speaker0>Do you still love them, or are you, do you don't even like them anymore?

00:30:21.394 --> 00:30:24.274
<v Speaker0>Because if you still love them, there's a path for you here.

00:30:24.374 --> 00:30:28.914
<v Speaker0>And you are the one that's in charge of what happens next in this church as

00:30:28.914 --> 00:30:30.854
<v Speaker0>far as regards to the office of pastor.

00:30:30.994 --> 00:30:35.774
<v Speaker0>Because all these things you've talked about, God is dealing and working in the midst of that.

00:30:36.094 --> 00:30:40.914
<v Speaker0>Sometimes staying when you're hurt is an incredible testimony to the church

00:30:40.914 --> 00:30:42.334
<v Speaker0>that they stay through things.

00:30:42.414 --> 00:30:45.154
<v Speaker0>They stay in their marriage when they're hurt. They stay with their kids when they're hurt.

00:30:45.334 --> 00:30:49.054
<v Speaker0>And they see, they're always watching. The church family is always,

00:30:49.214 --> 00:30:53.254
<v Speaker0>and you know, they know more about who's hurting you and what's hurting you than you think.

00:30:53.434 --> 00:30:56.894
<v Speaker0>Because people talk outside your presence and they watch you,

00:30:57.094 --> 00:31:01.954
<v Speaker0>how you engage with the person they know who is gossiping about you the most.

00:31:02.654 --> 00:31:08.334
<v Speaker0>They watch you and they see whether the grace comes out or the opposite of that.

00:31:08.494 --> 00:31:15.194
<v Speaker0>And only through Christ can we be given glory about how we recognize this person

00:31:15.194 --> 00:31:16.234
<v Speaker0>in front of me, they're hurting.

00:31:16.394 --> 00:31:19.074
<v Speaker0>The person who's gossiping is like, there's something broken,

00:31:19.074 --> 00:31:20.554
<v Speaker0>but I don't have to be broken?

00:31:21.080 --> 00:31:23.980
<v Speaker0>And I don't have to hurt them. If I do have a close friend in the church,

00:31:24.240 --> 00:31:28.540
<v Speaker0>I would certainly also have a close friend even outside the church,

00:31:28.540 --> 00:31:32.380
<v Speaker0>but maybe outside of my circle of Southern Baptist leaders.

00:31:32.540 --> 00:31:35.960
<v Speaker0>I would have someone who wasn't in our power circle or whatever.

00:31:36.220 --> 00:31:40.480
<v Speaker0>Those are healthy pastors, and they won't spend time talking to you about denominational

00:31:40.480 --> 00:31:42.640
<v Speaker0>politics, which doesn't get anybody anywhere.

00:31:44.460 --> 00:31:48.880
<v Speaker0>How am I going to pastor my church better? Well, let's first talk about the denominational. Why?

00:31:49.400 --> 00:31:53.460
<v Speaker0>We have a meeting every year. We get to go do that. So I would just say that,

00:31:53.700 --> 00:31:55.260
<v Speaker0>you know, be wise about it. You can.

00:31:55.560 --> 00:32:00.500
<v Speaker0>I was counseled that way. And our wives are the ones who actually build deeper

00:32:00.500 --> 00:32:03.460
<v Speaker0>relationships and they have to have wisdom too.

00:32:03.660 --> 00:32:07.180
<v Speaker0>We don't normally tell them that, but I just think women have a much more,

00:32:07.340 --> 00:32:12.520
<v Speaker0>my God, an affinity to draw into close relationships. They do it easier and faster, most of them.

00:32:12.740 --> 00:32:17.260
<v Speaker0>But even then, they're your wife. They're the pastor's wife and they'll get

00:32:17.260 --> 00:32:22.520
<v Speaker0>hurt, deeply hurt if they're betrayed. And so we have to help them and how we

00:32:22.520 --> 00:32:24.160
<v Speaker0>navigate that because it's fuzzy.

00:32:24.260 --> 00:32:27.960
<v Speaker0>When you get up to that line of love and friendship, now I'm going to cross

00:32:27.960 --> 00:32:28.840
<v Speaker0>over into deep friendship.

00:32:29.020 --> 00:32:32.660
<v Speaker0>That's a fuzzy line. And once you cross over it, and that comes with,

00:32:32.760 --> 00:32:37.700
<v Speaker0>I think, with a sharing that this happened in my marriage or this happened with my kids.

00:32:38.400 --> 00:32:41.380
<v Speaker0>Something personal is shared and then you've crossed over.

00:32:42.120 --> 00:32:45.220
<v Speaker0>And you got to wait for the other person to respond back. Well,

00:32:45.220 --> 00:32:46.640
<v Speaker0>that's great, Mike. What about the weather?

00:32:47.060 --> 00:32:51.300
<v Speaker0>Yeah, well, it's really hot today. All right. Oops. So I would say just be wise,

00:32:51.480 --> 00:32:55.140
<v Speaker0>but if you have one that's inside the church, be careful with them.

00:32:55.320 --> 00:32:58.560
<v Speaker0>They still need you to be your pastor. I would say this to close.

00:32:59.040 --> 00:33:04.320
<v Speaker0>I've had a great, great life among God's people, but I think they really want

00:33:04.320 --> 00:33:06.480
<v Speaker0>to be proud of you, proud of their pastor.

00:33:06.740 --> 00:33:09.740
<v Speaker0>They want to say, that's my pastor. Not that's Jesus.

00:33:10.080 --> 00:33:13.420
<v Speaker0>No, that's my pastor, and I'm proud of him. And they will do that.

00:33:13.906 --> 00:33:18.686
<v Speaker0>If they see us walking among them, even when we have the stripes on our back

00:33:18.686 --> 00:33:22.666
<v Speaker0>and we've been wounded, but we still go up and we're filled up with God's care,

00:33:22.806 --> 00:33:24.826
<v Speaker0>God's joy for our people, and we still love them.

00:33:24.986 --> 00:33:29.206
<v Speaker0>So that's my take. That is an excellent and weighty observation.

00:33:29.586 --> 00:33:35.906
<v Speaker0>Okay. I think that's a good place to end part one of the round table interview for now.

00:33:36.066 --> 00:33:41.426
<v Speaker0>Never fear there's at least that much more coming up next week with the same

00:33:41.426 --> 00:33:47.246
<v Speaker0>panel and we'll go even deeper in our discussion of relationships in the church.

00:33:47.246 --> 00:33:52.886
<v Speaker0>For now, let's transition to a soda review of an excellent beverage that Dr.

00:33:53.146 --> 00:33:57.366
<v Speaker0>Stewart and I happen to agree on. One of the special things,

00:33:57.506 --> 00:34:01.646
<v Speaker0>I think it's special, unique things we do on the Every Church Flourishing podcast

00:34:01.646 --> 00:34:05.526
<v Speaker0>is we get a rare, unique, strange,

00:34:06.006 --> 00:34:10.406
<v Speaker0>sometimes foreign, sometimes domestic soda from our showrunner, Ms.

00:34:10.546 --> 00:34:17.126
<v Speaker0>Grace, and we review it on the show. And today we have a soda I've never heard of before.

00:34:17.326 --> 00:34:24.426
<v Speaker0>This is a German soda called Spezzi, and it is a cola and juicy orange soda,

00:34:24.446 --> 00:34:27.186
<v Speaker0>which is very popular over there.

00:34:27.326 --> 00:34:32.006
<v Speaker0>Dr. Stewart, have you ever had a soda that's a combination of cola and orange?

00:34:32.346 --> 00:34:33.746
<v Speaker0>No, I don't believe I have. Nor have I.

00:34:34.368 --> 00:34:40.728
<v Speaker0>It's a very unique kind of deal. I grew up on Orange Crush and sodas like that

00:34:40.728 --> 00:34:44.768
<v Speaker0>with an orange flavor, but I've never had a combo orange and cola.

00:34:45.108 --> 00:34:48.948
<v Speaker0>And when I read the title, Spezzi, I sort of think of the Speznos,

00:34:49.268 --> 00:34:54.848
<v Speaker0>the Russian Special Forces or the Stasi, which is not such a good thing to think of.

00:34:54.968 --> 00:34:58.208
<v Speaker0>But what it means, this is a word, and you see it there at the top.

00:34:58.328 --> 00:34:59.548
<v Speaker0>It says, friend for life.

00:35:00.228 --> 00:35:05.848
<v Speaker0>Spezzi is the Bavarian word for buddy. So I guess this is a drink that friends

00:35:05.848 --> 00:35:07.248
<v Speaker0>and buddies should drink.

00:35:07.428 --> 00:35:10.748
<v Speaker0>So we're going to drink it as friends and buddies and then tell you what we

00:35:10.748 --> 00:35:11.748
<v Speaker0>think about it. You ready?

00:35:11.948 --> 00:35:14.168
<v Speaker0>All right. Not bad. What do you think, Dr. Stewart?

00:35:14.388 --> 00:35:17.268
<v Speaker0>Yeah, not bad. It says Cola and Juicy Orange.

00:35:18.188 --> 00:35:22.288
<v Speaker0>Juicy Orange. I'm glad they, you know, it was a juicy orange that they used.

00:35:22.528 --> 00:35:26.628
<v Speaker0>But yeah, let me try it again. I definitely get the citrusy flavor there.

00:35:26.808 --> 00:35:30.208
<v Speaker0>Yeah, it is not bad. It's got a five-star German quality, it says.

00:35:30.488 --> 00:35:34.388
<v Speaker0>On the bottom, five-star German quality. So you drink this while you're driving

00:35:34.388 --> 00:35:38.668
<v Speaker0>your Mercedes down the Autobahn with your Spetznat, you know,

00:35:38.848 --> 00:35:41.048
<v Speaker0>sniper rifle in the back. Friend for life.

00:35:41.548 --> 00:35:45.848
<v Speaker0>Vasily is pretty good. Pretty good soda. Not bad. Reminds me of something else

00:35:45.848 --> 00:35:47.868
<v Speaker0>that they have in Europe.

00:35:48.068 --> 00:35:52.088
<v Speaker0>What's that? I can't remember the name of it, but it's, oh, I've seen them.

00:35:52.268 --> 00:35:56.988
<v Speaker0>But anyway, I would say that's a, I would give that a four and a half.

00:35:57.528 --> 00:36:01.448
<v Speaker0>I think I would agree. Four and a half. I could drink this. I could drink this

00:36:01.448 --> 00:36:06.108
<v Speaker0>a lot. It's, it's, it's tastes a little like somebody poured some juice in my

00:36:06.108 --> 00:36:11.008
<v Speaker0>Coke, but I think it tastes better than that. It's, it's, it's good. It's smooth.

00:36:11.208 --> 00:36:14.588
<v Speaker0>It's tasty. It's actually, I would say if I could give it one word,

00:36:14.688 --> 00:36:17.228
<v Speaker0>I would say refreshing. This is a refreshing beverage.

00:36:17.588 --> 00:36:21.228
<v Speaker0>Yeah. Now I'm not drinking. I think this over a glass of ice,

00:36:21.368 --> 00:36:24.288
<v Speaker0>nicely chilled would be really refreshing.

00:36:25.285 --> 00:36:28.785
<v Speaker0>Of course, this is a, you know, this is not a American sized bottle.

00:36:29.825 --> 00:36:37.245
<v Speaker0>This is probably, so this is a zero. Eight ounces? 0.25. Yeah. Okay.

00:36:38.165 --> 00:36:41.845
<v Speaker0>Yeah. It's a quarter of a liter, I guess. I don't know. But well,

00:36:41.945 --> 00:36:45.205
<v Speaker0>thank you, Grace, for picking one that was very delightful.

00:36:45.405 --> 00:36:49.605
<v Speaker0>So if you ever see Spetsy, or you can just say that to your pastor friends. Hey, Spetsy.

00:36:50.265 --> 00:36:53.945
<v Speaker0>That's right. Buddy, we have not only, we've not only refreshed,

00:36:54.185 --> 00:36:57.305
<v Speaker0>we've educated on this episode, Chase, so. That's important.

00:36:57.585 --> 00:37:02.325
<v Speaker0>That's important. And I'm going to agree with you. A rare concurrence and confluence.

00:37:02.485 --> 00:37:08.605
<v Speaker0>I'm going to say my Spezzi, also worth 4 out of 5, 4.5 out of 5 Spurgeons.

00:37:08.765 --> 00:37:12.665
<v Speaker0>This is, this is tasty. It's got full sugar. It's probably got a lot of calories,

00:37:12.865 --> 00:37:15.505
<v Speaker0>but I would drink this every day and be a happy camper.

00:37:15.505 --> 00:37:21.765
<v Speaker0>Okay, now that we are refreshed, we want to close out with some great quotes

00:37:21.765 --> 00:37:29.025
<v Speaker0>that you can use in your Resurrection Sunday sermon this upcoming week or Sunday

00:37:29.025 --> 00:37:31.885
<v Speaker0>school or post on your blog or whatever.

00:37:31.885 --> 00:37:37.945
<v Speaker0>I've picked out 10 great quotes from various church leaders on the resurrection

00:37:37.945 --> 00:37:42.105
<v Speaker0>of Jesus, and most of these are not super well-known.

00:37:42.265 --> 00:37:46.125
<v Speaker0>I wouldn't say they're exactly obscure or anything like that,

00:37:46.225 --> 00:37:48.385
<v Speaker0>but these are not the normal ones you read.

00:37:48.485 --> 00:37:53.505
<v Speaker0>So we'll start out with John Piper from God is the Gospel, who says in the number

00:37:53.505 --> 00:37:58.745
<v Speaker0>one slot, the best news of the Christian gospel is that the supremely glorious

00:37:58.745 --> 00:38:00.105
<v Speaker0>creator of the universe.

00:38:00.385 --> 00:38:06.685
<v Speaker0>Has acted in Jesus Christ's death and resurrection to remove every obstacle

00:38:06.685 --> 00:38:13.345
<v Speaker0>between us and himself so that we may find everlasting joy in seeing the

00:38:13.330 --> 00:38:20.850
<v Speaker0>and savoring his infinite beauty. Number two from C.S. Lewis in the book Miracles.

00:38:21.070 --> 00:38:26.130
<v Speaker0>In the earliest days of Christianity, an apostle was first and foremost a man

00:38:26.130 --> 00:38:29.050
<v Speaker0>who claimed to be an eyewitness of the resurrection.

00:38:29.110 --> 00:38:37.110
<v Speaker0>As this qualification suggests, to preach Christianity meant primarily to preach the resurrection.

00:38:37.110 --> 00:38:44.510
<v Speaker0>The resurrection is the central theme in every Christian sermon reported in the book of Acts.

00:38:44.770 --> 00:38:51.530
<v Speaker0>The resurrection and its consequences were the gospel or good news which the Christians brought.

00:38:51.810 --> 00:38:56.970
<v Speaker0>Number three, Tim Keller from his excellent apologetics book, The Reason for God.

00:38:57.150 --> 00:39:02.110
<v Speaker0>If Jesus rose from the dead, then you have to accept all that he said.

00:39:02.270 --> 00:39:06.710
<v Speaker0>If he didn't rise from the dead, then why worry about any of what he said?

00:39:06.710 --> 00:39:11.530
<v Speaker0>The issue on which everything hangs is not whether or not you like his teaching,

00:39:11.710 --> 00:39:14.450
<v Speaker0>but whether or not he rose from the dead.

00:39:14.730 --> 00:39:17.710
<v Speaker0>Number four, my guy, Charles Spurgeon.

00:39:18.030 --> 00:39:22.570
<v Speaker0>Christianity stands or falls with the resurrection of its founder.

00:39:22.870 --> 00:39:27.050
<v Speaker0>No man can be a Christian and doubt the resurrection of the Lord.

00:39:27.190 --> 00:39:29.330
<v Speaker0>If that had not happened...

00:39:29.381 --> 00:39:33.821
<v Speaker0>The whole matter would have been proved an imposture.

00:39:34.141 --> 00:39:39.101
<v Speaker0>Number five, H.B. Charles from his sermon, Case Closed.

00:39:39.281 --> 00:39:45.281
<v Speaker0>Ephesians 1, 20-21 says, God raised Jesus from the dead and seated him at his

00:39:45.281 --> 00:39:49.901
<v Speaker0>right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power

00:39:49.901 --> 00:39:52.941
<v Speaker0>and dominion and above every name that is named,

00:39:53.101 --> 00:39:55.821
<v Speaker0>not only in this age, but also in the one to come.

00:39:55.941 --> 00:40:02.341
<v Speaker0>The one who died on the cross and rose from the dead is now seated at the right hand of God.

00:40:02.541 --> 00:40:08.601
<v Speaker0>Psalm 110 verse 1 reads, The Lord said to my Lord, sit at my right hand until

00:40:08.601 --> 00:40:11.361
<v Speaker0>I make your enemies your footstool.

00:40:11.541 --> 00:40:17.081
<v Speaker0>The Christ of the empty tomb is the Christ of the occupied throne.

00:40:17.381 --> 00:40:23.261
<v Speaker0>Next, another Spurgeon quote who says, The whole system of Christianity rests

00:40:23.261 --> 00:40:25.961
<v Speaker0>upon the fact that Christ is risen from the dead.

00:40:25.961 --> 00:40:32.421
<v Speaker0>For if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also

00:40:32.421 --> 00:40:34.821
<v Speaker0>vain. Ye are yet in your sins.

00:40:35.001 --> 00:40:39.101
<v Speaker0>The divinity of Christ finds its surest proof in his resurrection,

00:40:39.101 --> 00:40:43.921
<v Speaker0>since he was declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit

00:40:43.921 --> 00:40:46.601
<v Speaker0>of holiness by the resurrection from the dead.

00:40:46.601 --> 00:40:51.921
<v Speaker0>It would not be unreasonable to doubt his deity if he had not risen.

00:40:51.921 --> 00:40:55.841
<v Speaker0>Our justification, that choice blessing of the covenant,

00:40:56.081 --> 00:41:01.021
<v Speaker0>is linked with Christ's triumphant victory over death in the grave,

00:41:01.021 --> 00:41:03.501
<v Speaker0>for he was delivered up for our

00:41:03.501 --> 00:41:08.441
<v Speaker0>offenses and was raised again for our justification, and most certainly...

00:41:09.144 --> 00:41:15.324
<v Speaker0>Our ultimate resurrection rests here, for if the Spirit of him that raised up

00:41:15.324 --> 00:41:17.704
<v Speaker0>Jesus from the dead dwell in you,

00:41:17.904 --> 00:41:22.824
<v Speaker0>he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies

00:41:22.824 --> 00:41:25.224
<v Speaker0>by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

00:41:25.404 --> 00:41:28.944
<v Speaker0>If Christ be not risen, then we shall not rise.

00:41:28.944 --> 00:41:34.424
<v Speaker0>But if he be risen, then they who are asleep in Christ have not perished,

00:41:34.484 --> 00:41:37.964
<v Speaker0>but in their flesh shall surely behold their God.

00:41:37.964 --> 00:41:43.404
<v Speaker0>Thus, the silver thread of resurrection runs through all the believer's blessings

00:41:43.404 --> 00:41:49.844
<v Speaker0>from his regeneration onwards to his eternal glory and binds them all together.

00:41:50.164 --> 00:41:55.904
<v Speaker0>Number seven, G.K. Chesterton, who wrote, Jesus's resurrection is the ground

00:41:55.904 --> 00:42:00.444
<v Speaker0>and basis of all true love, hope, and joy.

00:42:00.644 --> 00:42:05.164
<v Speaker0>For if Jesus is still in the grave, then all of humanity will remain in the

00:42:05.164 --> 00:42:11.644
<v Speaker0>grave too. But he is not in the grave, and this makes all the difference.

00:42:12.104 --> 00:42:17.264
<v Speaker0>Number eight, Chuck Colson, Charles Colson. He says, I know the resurrection

00:42:17.264 --> 00:42:20.784
<v Speaker0>is a fact, and Watergate proved it to me. How?

00:42:20.984 --> 00:42:25.884
<v Speaker0>Because 12 men testified they had seen Jesus raised from the dead.

00:42:26.084 --> 00:42:30.564
<v Speaker0>Then they proclaimed that truth for 40 years, never once denying it.

00:42:30.684 --> 00:42:34.964
<v Speaker0>Everyone was beaten, tortured, stoned, and put in prison. They would not have

00:42:34.964 --> 00:42:37.004
<v Speaker0>endured that if it weren't true.

00:42:37.364 --> 00:42:41.484
<v Speaker0>Watergate embroiled 12 of the most powerful men in the world,

00:42:41.524 --> 00:42:44.764
<v Speaker0>and they couldn't keep alive for three weeks.

00:42:44.964 --> 00:42:49.264
<v Speaker0>You're telling me 12 apostles could keep alive for 40 years?

00:42:49.704 --> 00:42:51.044
<v Speaker0>Absolutely impossible.

00:42:51.806 --> 00:42:57.106
<v Speaker0>Number nine, Charles Spurgeon again. Now soul, if thou would be saved before

00:42:57.106 --> 00:43:02.086
<v Speaker0>all things, it is necessary that thou should trust thy soul in the hands of

00:43:02.086 --> 00:43:03.886
<v Speaker0>God, the faithful creator.

00:43:04.306 --> 00:43:08.686
<v Speaker0>Beholding ever associated with those hands, the Lord Jesus Christ,

00:43:09.066 --> 00:43:13.506
<v Speaker0>God and man, who has died and risen again to put away thy sin.

00:43:13.746 --> 00:43:21.506
<v Speaker0>Such a faith now exercised will save thee at once and will save thee forever and ever.

00:43:21.806 --> 00:43:26.606
<v Speaker0>That's from Spurgeon's sermon, The Two Pillars of Salvation,

00:43:26.866 --> 00:43:29.606
<v Speaker0>which he preached in 1894.

00:43:30.006 --> 00:43:33.066
<v Speaker0>And number 10 from D.A. Carson.

00:43:33.306 --> 00:43:38.786
<v Speaker0>The entire Bible pivots on one weekend in Jerusalem about 2,000 years ago.

00:43:39.006 --> 00:43:43.726
<v Speaker0>Attempts to make sense of the Bible that do not give prolonged thought to integrating

00:43:43.726 --> 00:43:48.286
<v Speaker0>the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus are doomed to failure,

00:43:48.526 --> 00:43:51.606
<v Speaker0>at best exercises in irrelevance.

00:43:51.766 --> 00:43:54.986
<v Speaker0>Well, let me give you one more bonus because it was too good not to include.

00:43:55.226 --> 00:44:02.346
<v Speaker0>This is number 11 from Yaroslav Pelikan, who says, if Christ is not risen, nothing else matters.

00:44:02.566 --> 00:44:05.966
<v Speaker0>And if Christ is risen, nothing else matters.

00:44:06.226 --> 00:44:10.346
<v Speaker0>That's one you can ponder on for the rest of the afternoon. As promised at the

00:44:10.346 --> 00:44:14.726
<v Speaker0>beginning, let's talk a little bit about the question that as a pastor,

00:44:14.726 --> 00:44:20.626
<v Speaker0>I'm asked all the time, do dogs go to heaven? Will my pet be in heaven?

00:44:20.846 --> 00:44:25.426
<v Speaker0>Will my kitty cat, my hamster, my dog that died, our dog that died,

00:44:25.706 --> 00:44:30.406
<v Speaker0>little Cooper, he died a few years ago. He was way too young. It broke our hearts.

00:44:30.726 --> 00:44:34.926
<v Speaker0>Will such beasts somehow, someway make it into heaven?

00:44:35.046 --> 00:44:39.046
<v Speaker0>It's a great question. And I've always answered it in part by pointing to the

00:44:39.046 --> 00:44:43.506
<v Speaker0>fact that many resurrection passages in the Bible, especially in the Old Testament.

00:44:43.846 --> 00:44:46.206
<v Speaker0>Do indeed mention animals in

00:44:46.288 --> 00:44:51.108
<v Speaker0>in the resurrection. Does that mean animals will be resurrected?

00:44:51.428 --> 00:44:55.108
<v Speaker0>Now, obviously, I don't know the answer to that question, but C.S.

00:44:55.128 --> 00:45:02.688
<v Speaker0>Lewis, in his book, The Problem of Pain, gives a very thoughtful answer to the question.

00:45:02.888 --> 00:45:05.768
<v Speaker0>And look, let me just be straight with you. It's pretty deep.

00:45:05.928 --> 00:45:10.048
<v Speaker0>You're probably going to want to listen to this and then come read it,

00:45:10.128 --> 00:45:13.428
<v Speaker0>and I will have it included in total at our website,

00:45:13.628 --> 00:45:18.128
<v Speaker0>everychurchflourishing.com, in the episode 10 show notes.

00:45:18.248 --> 00:45:21.908
<v Speaker0>But this is what Lewis himself says about the question.

00:45:22.128 --> 00:45:26.828
<v Speaker0>It's deep, like I said, so think. Man was appointed by God to have dominion

00:45:26.828 --> 00:45:31.968
<v Speaker0>over the beasts, and everything a man does to an animal is either a lawful exercise

00:45:31.968 --> 00:45:35.788
<v Speaker0>or a sacrilegious abuse of an authority by divine right.

00:45:35.928 --> 00:45:40.548
<v Speaker0>The tame animal is therefore, in the deepest sense, the only natural animal,

00:45:40.548 --> 00:45:44.608
<v Speaker0>The only one we see occupying the place it was made to occupy,

00:45:44.608 --> 00:45:50.068
<v Speaker0>and it is on the tame animal that we must base all our doctrine of beasts.

00:45:50.288 --> 00:45:56.968
<v Speaker0>Now, it will be seen that insofar as the tame animal has a real self or personality,

00:45:56.968 --> 00:46:00.448
<v Speaker0>it owes this almost entirely to its master.

00:46:00.836 --> 00:46:07.316
<v Speaker0>If a good sheepdog seems almost human, that is because a good shepherd has made it so.

00:46:07.516 --> 00:46:12.436
<v Speaker0>I've already noted, says Lewis, the mysterious force of the word in, I-N.

00:46:12.596 --> 00:46:16.596
<v Speaker0>I do not take all the senses of it in the New Testament to be identical,

00:46:16.596 --> 00:46:21.256
<v Speaker0>so that man is in Christ, in Christ in God, in the Holy Spirit in the church,

00:46:21.496 --> 00:46:25.576
<v Speaker0>and also in the individual believer in exactly the same sense.

00:46:25.716 --> 00:46:30.436
<v Speaker0>They may be senses that rhyme or correspond rather than a single sense.

00:46:30.436 --> 00:46:35.676
<v Speaker0>I'm now going to suggest, says Lewis, though with great readiness to be set

00:46:35.676 --> 00:46:40.156
<v Speaker0>right by real theologians, that there may be a sense corresponding.

00:46:40.436 --> 00:46:48.936
<v Speaker0>Though not identical with these, in which those beasts that attain a real self are in their masters.

00:46:48.936 --> 00:46:53.336
<v Speaker0>That is to say, you must not think of a beast by itself and call that a personality

00:46:53.336 --> 00:46:56.496
<v Speaker0>and then inquire whether God will raise and bless that.

00:46:56.496 --> 00:47:02.296
<v Speaker0>You must take the whole context in which the beast acquires its selfhood,

00:47:02.456 --> 00:47:06.556
<v Speaker0>mainly the good man and the good wife ruling their children and their beasts

00:47:06.556 --> 00:47:08.076
<v Speaker0>in their good homestead.

00:47:08.236 --> 00:47:16.576
<v Speaker0>That whole context may be regarded as a body in the Pauline or a closely sub-Pauline sense,

00:47:16.824 --> 00:47:22.264
<v Speaker0>and how much of that body may be raised with the good man and the good wife who can predict.

00:47:22.264 --> 00:47:27.824
<v Speaker0>So much, presumably, as is necessary, not only for the glory of God and the

00:47:27.824 --> 00:47:33.564
<v Speaker0>beatitude of the human pair, but for that particular glory and that particular beatitude,

00:47:33.784 --> 00:47:38.344
<v Speaker0>which is eternally colored by that particular terrestrial experience.

00:47:38.344 --> 00:47:44.304
<v Speaker0>And in this way, it seems to me possible that certain animals may have an immortality

00:47:44.304 --> 00:47:50.864
<v Speaker0>Not in themselves, says Lewis, but in the immortality of their masters.

00:47:51.184 --> 00:47:56.044
<v Speaker0>And the difficulty about personal identity in a creature barely personal disappears

00:47:56.044 --> 00:48:00.464
<v Speaker0>when the creature is thus kept in its proper context.

00:48:00.464 --> 00:48:05.464
<v Speaker0>If you ask concerning an animal thus raised as a member of the whole body of

00:48:05.464 --> 00:48:08.564
<v Speaker0>the homestead, where its personal identity resides.

00:48:08.944 --> 00:48:14.404
<v Speaker0>I answer, where its identity always did reside, even in the earthly life,

00:48:14.504 --> 00:48:19.624
<v Speaker0>in its relation to the body, and especially to the master who is the head of that body.

00:48:19.764 --> 00:48:23.224
<v Speaker0>In other words, the man will know his dog, the dog will know its master,

00:48:23.404 --> 00:48:25.744
<v Speaker0>and in knowing him will be itself.

00:48:25.984 --> 00:48:30.124
<v Speaker0>Now look, that's pretty deep and worth exploring.

00:48:30.344 --> 00:48:35.964
<v Speaker0>Basically, I think what Lewis is saying is that the personality of dogs,

00:48:36.144 --> 00:48:39.584
<v Speaker0>other pets as well, are echoes of their master.

00:48:39.904 --> 00:48:43.424
<v Speaker0>And in a sense, and many of us who have had pets have felt this,

00:48:43.744 --> 00:48:49.204
<v Speaker0>the dogs, cats, beloved animals are part of themselves in some ways.

00:48:49.344 --> 00:48:54.524
<v Speaker0>And Lewis is saying, in appalling sense of understanding of the body,

00:48:54.664 --> 00:48:59.844
<v Speaker0>not merely being the human body, but perhaps other things attached to it.

00:49:00.152 --> 00:49:07.232
<v Speaker0>Might not animals be also considered to be part of the body that will be resurrected?

00:49:07.452 --> 00:49:12.452
<v Speaker0>I'm not sure Lewis is right, and he himself said, I'm not sure I'm right.

00:49:12.592 --> 00:49:16.112
<v Speaker0>But I will say that in answering that question, I've never really considered

00:49:16.112 --> 00:49:20.332
<v Speaker0>that perspective before, and it's pretty deep, and it's pretty fascinating.

00:49:20.572 --> 00:49:25.952
<v Speaker0>What do you think will God resurrect beloved pets?

00:49:26.272 --> 00:49:29.812
<v Speaker0>I'd love to hear from you, and you can reach us through our website,

00:49:29.812 --> 00:49:33.692
<v Speaker0>either by recording a voicemail or sending a message.

00:49:34.072 --> 00:49:40.572
<v Speaker0>Our website is everychurchflourishing.com. That's everychurchflourishing.com.

00:49:40.712 --> 00:49:46.272
<v Speaker0>Please do leave us a message, weigh in. We'll read your responses on the air, so to speak.

00:49:46.392 --> 00:49:50.612
<v Speaker0>And if you have a chance, run on over to Apple Podcasts and leave us a review.

00:49:50.772 --> 00:49:55.672
<v Speaker0>We will see you next week when we will have part two of our roundtable.

00:49:55.672 --> 00:50:00.112
<v Speaker0>And we've got lots more great episodes coming up to look forward to.

00:50:00.232 --> 00:50:03.432
<v Speaker0>Thanks for listening. Good day to you and Godspeed.