April 20, 2026

Episode 13: At The End of Your Rope? +Preacher Myths (Lions Lay Down with the Lamb? Folded Napkin, Sparing the Rod, God Running?!) with Dr. Mike Stewart and Pastor Grant Combs

Episode 13: At The End of Your Rope? +Preacher Myths (Lions Lay Down with the Lamb? Folded Napkin, Sparing the Rod, God Running?!) with Dr. Mike Stewart and Pastor Grant Combs
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Season 1

Are you at the end of your rope? Today we discuss how to know you are close to running out of rope and what to do about it. PLUS: Preacher Myths. Will the lion lay down with the lamb? Did Paul fall of his horse on the Damascus Road? Did Mary ride a donkey to Bethlehem? Did Jesus leave a coded message in His tomb with a folded napkin? Does sparing the rod spoil the child? We will cover these preaching myths and more!

Welcome to episode 14 of the Every Church Flourishing Podcast, sponsored by the Great Commission Association of California. If you are a California pastor or church leader looking for a home - get in touch with us through our website GCASBC.org - we would love to partner with you!

Today Senior Director of the GCA Dr. Mike Stewart and I interview Pastor Grant Combs of Lighthouse Baptist in Seaside, California. In addition to pastoring Lighthouse, Grant is an ambassador to other pastors and church leaders, and he is going to help us know when disaster is coming, and some practical steps to avoid disaster in ministry.

We have upcoming episodes on women in ministry, with Dr. Kristen Ferguson Vice President of Gateway Seminary, mom, pastor’s wife, lady in ministry, and expert on the Christian use of AI. We will also be talking to Dr. Cathie Smith about women in ministry and women on mission coming very soon AND we are recording with Dr. Cameron Schweitzer, the director of Gateway Seminary’s campus in San Liandro, this week, and we’ve got lots more great guests lined up also.

Lions lying Down with Lambs? The Danger of Preacher Myths and Urban Legends.

Credibility and integrity are important, and I don’t think that any real Christian would disagree with that statement. Jesus spoke the truth, and identified Himself as a truth-teller in John 8. In fact, He noted that some of the Jews wanted to kill Him because He told them the truth. The truth isn’t always popular. Today we examine five "preacher myths," that may not be true.

WEBVTT

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Leaders and pastors find health, encouragement, practical advice,

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soul care, and resources that work together to build up your local fellowship

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and the broader kingdom of God.

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Join hosts, Pastor Chris Cole

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and Dr. Chase Thompson from the Great Commission Association, led by Dr.

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Mike Stewart, as they explore the frontiers of ministry and aim for the goal

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of making every church flourish.

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Hello, everybody, and welcome into episode number 14 of the Every Church Flourishing

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podcast sponsored by the Great Commission Association of California.

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If you are a California pastor or church leader looking for a home,

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get in touch with us through our website, gcasbc.org.

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We would love to partner with you, and I think you will find a home with us.

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Today, the senior director of the GCA, Dr.

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Mike Stewart, and I interview Pastor Grant Combs of Lighthouse Baptist in Seaside, California.

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We're going to be talking to him about how to respond when you're a leader,

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you're a pastor, and you feel like you're at the end of your rope.

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You're just about to let go and trouble's coming.

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In addition to pastoring Lighthouse, Grant is an ambassador to other pastors

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and church leaders, and he's going to kind of help us know how to see when disaster

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is coming, how to anticipate trouble. Yeah.

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And give us some practical steps to avoid disaster in ministry.

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We're going to get to that interview in just a moment, but let me plug a couple of things coming up.

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Very soon, we will have a couple of episodes with Dr.

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Kristen Ferguson, Vice President of Gateway Seminary, a mom,

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a pastor's wife, a lady in ministry, and an expert on the Christian use of AI.

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We're also going to be talking to Dr. Kathy Smith about women in ministry,

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women on mission, And this week, we are recording with Dr.

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Cameron Schweitzer, who is also with Gateway Seminary.

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He's the director of their campus in San Leandro, and we've got lots of other

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guests coming up as well. It's going to be a lot of fun.

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Now, after our main interview, we're going to talk about something that I think

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will be pretty interesting to you, whether you're a preacher or not.

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There are a lot of urban legends and myths in Christianity, and preachers like

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myself can be among the worst transmitters of these things.

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You've probably heard verses about lions lying down with lambs, right?

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And camels going through eyes of the needle and things like that.

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Well, we're going to talk in just a few minutes after our main interview about

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the danger of preacher myths and urban legends.

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So hang in there for that. And right now, let's go over to Dr.

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Mike Stewart and Grant Combs And let's talk about seeing danger coming at a

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distance so we swerve and avoid it and we don't run straight over it. Here we go.

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And we are joined by Pastor Grant Combs from Seaside, which is a nice little

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community right on the Pacific Ocean in Monterey Bay. Beautiful place.

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Pastor Grant, tell us a little bit about yourself, your church,

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all that kind of good stuff.

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Yeah, somebody had to be called here, man. It had to be me.

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Suffering.

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Suffering. That's right. I've been at Lighthouse Baptist for about 10 years, just over 10 years.

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We are right between Monterey, so just north of Monterey on the beautiful Monterey

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Bay. We have a congregation of just over 100 people. We're a sweet church family

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that loves the Lord and gets along.

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We're a fun little congregation.

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And, you know, We are no big deal, but we enjoy worshiping Jesus together every Sunday morning.

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Yeah, my wife and I have been on the peninsula since 2001.

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We both grew up in Orange County and came to the peninsula to work in Carmel.

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I know. It's been rough places. I worked in Carmel for 15 years doing youth

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and music ministry and then took the church that was already in the neighborhood

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where we were living about 10 years ago and have enjoyed it greatly.

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Well, Pastor Grant, I know that I still remember you coming on board there 10

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years ago and having that conversation with you.

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You got started doing that. I think you just recently wrote a paper about the

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issues that face pastors and burnout and those kinds of things.

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What led you to want to kind of investigate that and speak out?

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You know, I'm in a season of my life in ministry where a lot of guys burn out.

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And I've been doing ministry since I was like 20 years old, since before I knew

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that it was something you could actually do.

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You know, I was working with junior hires and led to a career in youth ministry,

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led to a career behind the pulpit.

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And I've just seen so many guys end up in the ditch, but not everybody.

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I've seen many guys finish the course and have faithful careers and enjoy it

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and have great families.

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And then other guys I've seen not only fall to great sin, but just be really

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miserable in the pulpit and resent their congregation and feel like they have nothing to say.

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And I love the Lord very much, and I love this church, and I want to be a pastor

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for the rest of my working career.

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But truthfully, I don't have skills to do anything else either.

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And so I see how people get stuck in a spot they don't want to be.

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And burnout looks like a lot of different things, but it really hurts families and congregations.

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And the ministry is too precious to do that. And so one of the motivations for

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doing some research was to avoid it. You know, do you be somebody who doesn't fall in that ditch?

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So what did you discover? What would be some signs or telltale indicators that

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that might be something that is starting to be in your ministry world?

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It might be creeping in on you.

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Yeah, I think some of it is the obvious things. It's, I'm not sleeping.

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I'm sleeping too much, gained a bunch of weight. I lost a bunch of weight.

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Some of those things that you can just tell biologically things are not going well in your life.

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But I do think a lot of it is, you know, there's seasons of,

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man, I love being behind the pulpit and seasons of, okay, this is a little bit

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of a grind. Is it Sunday again?

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You know, that kind of thing. But when it's more than that, when it's like,

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man, I really, I'm starting to resent the people that I'm serving.

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It's things like that. I'm starting to feel like I'm having to choose between

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my marriage and the church.

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I'm starting to feel like I'm having to hide so much about my life,

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about what my kids are up to, about what I'm doing as a hobby,

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about the way I'm blowing off steam.

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I'm having to hide so much of my life that I feel phony in the pulpit.

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I think those are the things you're looking for when you feel like a fraud.

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And I'm not talking about imposter syndrome. If you feel worthy to open up the

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holy scriptures to people, that's arrogance.

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You should not feel that. But when you really feel like I'm faking it here and

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there's, and I, and I'm not enjoying being a pastor anymore.

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And I resent the people that I work with. And I think those things,

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sneak up little by little and then all at once. And if you can be mindful about

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the little by little and avoid the all at once, it's a good thing.

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That's a great word. I recently counseled with a college student who was in

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the middle of exams and in a deeply stressful part of his life.

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And he was kind of talking to me about how everything was bad.

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All his relationships were bad and it felt to him like his life was kind of falling apart.

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And I said, well, hey, let's get through these exams and then see how you're feeling.

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So, you know, in light of that, Pastor Grant, Dr. Stewart, too,

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because you work with pastors for decades.

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What, how would you counsel somebody that comes to you and says,

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you know, hey, everything is feeling bad. I resent the people I'm with.

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I resent the church. I'm tired of it. I fantasize about doing other things, maybe quitting my job.

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When you feel those things, as you say, you're really kind of not at the beginning stages of burnout.

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You're sort of halfway or even three quarters of the way there.

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So let's say somebody's listening and everything is dark and dim and everything is struggle.

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What kinds of emergency steps should leaders in that position engage in?

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I think that we just had a conversation that I think will be on another episode

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about friendship, about having mentors, about having those kind of connections.

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And I do think the first thing is you need to be honest.

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With yourself and you need to be honest with somebody else. And you need to

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understand that this church has a Savior and it's not you.

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If you need to step away for a season of your life and go work at Home Depot,

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God bless you. That's not a terrible idea.

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At the same time, if you can work over a season, over three or six months,

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and get some help and get some advice and put in some good practices and see growth,

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you know, one of the things that I've just noticed is that no matter how deep

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and dark a hole you're in, any progress feels pretty good.

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So if you don't have to get all the way to healthy, if you can start doing some

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good things that are moving towards health, you're going to feel a lot better right away.

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And so you're the only one who's going to know whether that's possible in this situation.

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You might be to a point where you say, look, you're an affair waiting to happen,

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or you're an anger and abuse issue waiting to happen, or you're just about to steal the tithe, man.

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You have gone so far, you really need to take a step away from ministry.

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Or this is just a heavy load you're bearing, and there's still time. Repent.

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Get moving in the right direction. Get some folks around you.

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Pick up some spiritual disciplines that are helpful.

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And I think let's get through this season is really good advice.

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Let's start some things, let's work together, and let's see how you feel in a couple months.

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Yeah, great.

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Dr. Stewart, you pastor pastors. So if a pastor comes to you and says,

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hey, I resent the people, I'm tired of this, I wish I'd become an insurance salesman or whatever,

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what are the things you're going to say to them at the very beginning of that conversation?

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Well, I think when that's happening to a person, one of the things happening

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inside their life and in the congregation, is they don't think anybody cares.

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No one cares. And they may be—I mean—

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They may be married to Job's wife. There may be no one. Well,

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somebody's married to her.

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Probably.

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They come to this belief, and the enemy has them isolated and trapped in their

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mind that even if they tell someone, no one will care.

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I would say to them, if you're listening, you are so important to God.

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He knows everything, and you're important to other believers.

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And if you can't go to your congregation, that's one of the great things about

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being inside of an association.

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Our association has, it's not me, but they have an office that has me,

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someone like me in it, or Chris Smith in it, or Grant.

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It matters to us. It matters to us that a minister is feeling trapped and isolated and he's wrung out.

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Most of the guys I know.

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They are heroic and they will tie the knot on the rope and they will hang on

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until there's no flesh left on the bone.

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They are that committed. And then there's nothing left.

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So first of all, in your mind, people care about you.

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Pastors are cared about, and Satan will tell you that they're not important.

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Nobody respects you. That's not true in the kingdom of God.

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So I would say that first, that you're very important, even if you have something

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to share that you're embarrassed about. Who wants to say this out loud?

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I'm quitting. I'm giving up. I've spent my whole life. I've spent 40 years.

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So there's some things that are happening spiritually inside of us.

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And when we say it out loud, it's important for everyone listening to this person that they rally.

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Don't try to dissect it. Rally to them and tell them how important and how you're

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going to pray for them and help them and listen to them. You're not going to fix their issue.

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That issue that they have inside their heart, you're going to be an encourager

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or Barnabas alongside of them.

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You've got to commit to them because that person in front of you,

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they've been used in God in many ways. They're just not seeing the fruit of this moment.

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So that's the first thing. And secondly, I would encourage them.

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There are spiritual things that they need to lean into. Fasting.

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God, I can't hear you anymore. A lot of times, this is the issue.

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I can't hear God speaking to my life anymore. There's too many problems, too many issues.

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Change it up. Call your association. call a friend, come fill the pulpit for three weeks.

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I have to, I need to reconnect. That's another thing. Take time off.

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Get out of the, get out of the frying pan, you know, and take some time off, but don't lay around.

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Take some time off to spiritually engage with God. He cares.

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Even if you don't know how to do that perfectly with him, he cares and just

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say, I need to, I need, I need more of you, Lord, whether I'm pastoring or not.

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I need more of you in my life because That's certainly not that he hasn't trapped

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us in a corner of ministry and said, aha, aha, I knew you would quit when I got you here.

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That's not the work of the father. That's the enemy.

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And there's always Jesus said he was what? A gate.

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He was a gate. So he's the gate that we go through to get out of that trap place in that desolate place.

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He's always going to be the gate. And for pastors and us who are always around

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the Word of God and always around serving others,

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He's still the only answer to what we have.

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I saw this little cartoon the other day. This is a segue, but a little segue.

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There's a very complicated math problem. The student writes in,

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Jesus is always the answer.

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And the teacher writes below it, not on this question, minus five points.

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But for us, in this scenario, Jesus

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is always the answer. But they need encouragement, not discouragement.

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So you refrain from that if you're a friend or anyone around them.

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Because it's easy to judge and say, I can't believe you're giving up. But don't do that.

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Because God and his great power can redeem and restore.

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But he won't do it in five minutes. He will come to you and speak to you.

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But your friends around you, let's be the friends that Job didn't have.

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And be the friends that come around to you and say, we hear you.

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We love you. And we're praying with you.

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And maybe we can be the people that say, let's go on a prayer retreat,

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just you and me, because you're too important.

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And if you move in this direction, I'm with you.

00:15:35.946 --> 00:15:38.906
I'm with you as a friend, but I want God's will to be done in your life.

00:15:39.006 --> 00:15:41.546
And ultimately, maybe that's what it really is.

00:15:41.766 --> 00:15:44.146
They need something that's refreshing to them.

00:15:44.766 --> 00:15:47.986
They need someone to say, even though you lost that church vote,

00:15:48.246 --> 00:15:53.206
even though that lady said, you're a horrible pastor and you don't visit anybody

00:15:53.206 --> 00:15:57.686
in the hospital, when you came home from the hospital at one o'clock last night in the morning

00:15:58.627 --> 00:16:02.227
They need somebody else. Let that be us to those people.

00:16:02.467 --> 00:16:02.847
Amen.

00:16:03.207 --> 00:16:07.887
To the men in the ministry. But let us always be ready with the word of encouragement.

00:16:08.207 --> 00:16:10.967
Amen to that. So one of the things you point out, Dr.

00:16:11.047 --> 00:16:14.047
Stewart, that I think is a real dynamic among church leaders,

00:16:14.207 --> 00:16:19.567
pastors, and deacons and whatever is they will wait until it is an emergency

00:16:19.567 --> 00:16:21.607
issue before they ask for help.

00:16:21.787 --> 00:16:25.787
And with our health, our real physical health, if we do that,

00:16:25.947 --> 00:16:32.087
what we do is we generally skip going to the doctor and have to head straight to the emergency room.

00:16:32.207 --> 00:16:37.367
And that's not a wise way to practice things, to wait until your health is so

00:16:37.367 --> 00:16:39.127
bad you need to go to the hospital.

00:16:39.307 --> 00:16:43.767
So hopefully we leaders can model this because, again, we're being watched.

00:16:43.887 --> 00:16:48.587
We can model this for other people that before we're about to fall off the cliff

00:16:48.587 --> 00:16:52.827
into total destruction, we should ask for help.

00:16:52.827 --> 00:16:58.227
And to summarize your advices, both you guys gave very similar advice to people

00:16:58.227 --> 00:17:02.607
in this situation. You focused on spiritual disciplines, your relationship with Jesus.

00:17:02.687 --> 00:17:07.907
You focused on Sabbath, taking a break, taking a rest, whatever that might look like.

00:17:08.047 --> 00:17:12.727
You focused on asking for help and looking for refreshment, whether that be

00:17:12.727 --> 00:17:17.167
in relationships or hobbies or whatever. One more thing to talk about with Pastor Grant.

00:17:17.387 --> 00:17:20.827
Let's talk a little bit about, please do. Yes, sir.

00:17:20.827 --> 00:17:29.247
Also, I also said, and this is key, you must believe that people care about you and your ministry.

00:17:29.407 --> 00:17:34.747
That's the idea that no one cares, and I've not been successful in however you measure success.

00:17:35.545 --> 00:17:38.745
That belief that people really do care about you. Because I can tell you,

00:17:38.785 --> 00:17:43.125
the GCA pastors, and we hear a lot of pastor concerns, a lot of,

00:17:43.245 --> 00:17:46.705
I don't ever have any staff person. We have prayer every Monday.

00:17:47.005 --> 00:17:51.365
We pray for our pastors in need and those kinds of things. Nobody, it's always important.

00:17:51.885 --> 00:17:55.985
That pastor and his ministry, it's never like, oh, well, hey, it's critical.

00:17:56.005 --> 00:18:01.645
But the enemy will tell you what your problems and your ministry are not important. That is a lie.

00:18:02.005 --> 00:18:04.905
Just acknowledging that you're not gonna agree with the enemy.

00:18:05.545 --> 00:18:08.845
About the ministry God has given you because the ministry comes from God.

00:18:09.475 --> 00:18:13.955
So I would just don't agree with the enemy, agree with God and that people really

00:18:13.955 --> 00:18:15.755
do care. They really will help you.

00:18:15.875 --> 00:18:19.115
I couldn't agree with you more. That's one of the things we focused on the early

00:18:19.115 --> 00:18:24.795
episodes of this podcast is the benefits of being part of a team of associationalism

00:18:24.795 --> 00:18:26.495
so that you are not alone.

00:18:26.675 --> 00:18:30.895
And if you're a pastor out there and you feel alone, it's time to look for a

00:18:30.895 --> 00:18:35.375
home, a community in the same way that you would not have a church member do

00:18:35.375 --> 00:18:40.295
their Christian walk alone. pastors should not do their pastoring alone.

00:18:40.615 --> 00:18:44.395
So find your team. That's just so crucial. Well, last thing,

00:18:44.475 --> 00:18:49.235
we won't have a long time to talk about this, but let's at least hit on the issue of depression.

00:18:49.235 --> 00:18:52.475
Because according to the Duke Clergy Health Initiative,

00:18:52.895 --> 00:18:59.415
the rate of depression among pastors is roughly double the general population

00:18:59.415 --> 00:19:04.335
of the United States, which you feel like it should be the other way around, half, not double.

00:19:04.335 --> 00:19:09.675
And 18% of the United States Protestant pastors,

00:19:09.955 --> 00:19:16.675
18%, so nearly one in five, say they have contemplated self-harm or suicide

00:19:16.675 --> 00:19:19.575
within the past year, which, again, is a high number.

00:19:19.575 --> 00:19:22.095
So starting with you, Pastor Grant, and then Dr.

00:19:22.215 --> 00:19:28.695
Stewart, what do you think explains the high rate of depression among pastors

00:19:28.695 --> 00:19:35.455
and church leaders and even that temptation or bent towards self-harm and suicide?

00:19:36.176 --> 00:19:38.816
Yeah, I think, first of all, well, two things. First of all,

00:19:38.936 --> 00:19:42.616
when we're talking about burnout or depression, I'm not sure we're talking about

00:19:42.616 --> 00:19:44.096
entirely different things.

00:19:44.296 --> 00:19:48.496
I think that these are similar issues in a pastor's life.

00:19:48.816 --> 00:19:53.876
I also just want to be clear. I assume you're talking about situational depression.

00:19:53.876 --> 00:19:59.616
This is not a chemical issue, a biological issue. This is not something for

00:19:59.616 --> 00:20:05.496
a doctor. This is an otherwise healthy person that just is in despair because

00:20:05.496 --> 00:20:08.256
of the situation of life they're in.

00:20:08.396 --> 00:20:14.656
And, you know, I was very taken by Jim Berg wrote an article that just meant the world to me.

00:20:14.836 --> 00:20:19.656
And he had it's I know this is an audio thing. So describing a graphic is not

00:20:19.656 --> 00:20:23.176
great, but he has an image that looks like a bridge.

00:20:23.396 --> 00:20:27.596
And the platform of the bridge is two things, mind and body.

00:20:27.596 --> 00:20:32.816
The upright of the bridge underneath it is a disciplined mind and body.

00:20:33.036 --> 00:20:37.236
So those are like drink some water, get some rest, take a day off,

00:20:37.756 --> 00:20:42.876
hit the gym, like get some exercise and, you know, be a healthy person and don't

00:20:42.876 --> 00:20:46.916
only read theology, mix in some of the sports page and like,

00:20:46.996 --> 00:20:47.936
you know, just good stuff.

00:20:48.743 --> 00:20:53.043
I don't know if self-care is the word you want to use, but take care of your mind and your body.

00:20:53.283 --> 00:20:57.363
The other upright to the bridge is a renewed mind.

00:20:57.543 --> 00:21:03.123
So this is all of the, this is, you know, read and put all of those spiritual

00:21:03.123 --> 00:21:04.183
disciplines into place.

00:21:04.183 --> 00:21:09.543
And this is the fasting and this is the celebration and this is the prayer and

00:21:09.543 --> 00:21:11.003
this is all of that stuff.

00:21:11.003 --> 00:21:16.943
And so if you if you build those uprights well, your mind and your body will

00:21:16.943 --> 00:21:19.323
be able to take a certain amount of pressures.

00:21:19.563 --> 00:21:23.783
So the things we put on top of those that are the pressures of life.

00:21:23.903 --> 00:21:26.923
And I think one of the big things is those are not all bad.

00:21:27.183 --> 00:21:29.483
Sometimes you took on too many good things.

00:21:29.863 --> 00:21:36.023
Sometimes you just don't have the ability to handle everything that you have

00:21:36.023 --> 00:21:41.923
put on your table. And I also think like we automatically go to this is a spiritual issue.

00:21:42.263 --> 00:21:47.923
Sometimes it is a physical issue. We are embodied beings like so it could be

00:21:47.923 --> 00:21:52.063
that you are there's been a medical issue in your life and you're dealing with

00:21:52.063 --> 00:21:54.383
that and you feel like, oh, well, I should be able to.

00:21:55.018 --> 00:22:00.138
Deal with that and take on everything I've always taken on because God is with me.

00:22:00.278 --> 00:22:04.078
And you go, God is with you, but God's with the people that you're serving too.

00:22:04.298 --> 00:22:08.438
And so to think about when I'm feeling like there's too much,

00:22:08.638 --> 00:22:12.538
when I'm feeling like I can't do it, when I'm feeling like there's so much pressure

00:22:12.538 --> 00:22:17.158
on this table that I can't bear it, you have a couple of issues.

00:22:17.318 --> 00:22:18.338
You have a couple of options.

00:22:18.538 --> 00:22:22.598
You strengthen your mind, strengthen your body, or take some of the pressures off.

00:22:22.778 --> 00:22:29.418
And I think that, you know, we are all hired by wonderful, sweet congregations

00:22:29.418 --> 00:22:31.698
who have no idea what it means to be a pastor.

00:22:31.858 --> 00:22:39.458
And so they are fully willing to put as much on top of your table as you will say yes to.

00:22:39.658 --> 00:22:44.218
And not only that, but you're raising children or you're in certain seasons

00:22:44.218 --> 00:22:47.338
of life and you have parents you're taking care of and all of these things.

00:22:47.338 --> 00:22:50.198
They don't have to be bad, but they are pressures.

00:22:50.298 --> 00:22:55.738
And I think it's also okay to say, I might not be able to take on everything the guy next door can.

00:22:56.178 --> 00:23:00.698
Yeah. I don't know why God, he's going to have to stand before God on his own.

00:23:00.798 --> 00:23:02.798
And I'm going to have to stand before God on my own.

00:23:02.918 --> 00:23:08.398
And so if you feel like that in the bridge metaphor, if you feel the bridge sagging.

00:23:08.989 --> 00:23:12.969
Don't wait till it breaks. You have to articulate. And this is where you go

00:23:12.969 --> 00:23:16.209
to some friends too and go, here, are there things in my life that I could gird

00:23:16.209 --> 00:23:17.829
up, that I could be strengthened?

00:23:17.909 --> 00:23:20.509
Are there spiritual disciplines? Are there friendships?

00:23:20.969 --> 00:23:26.289
Are there like, do I need to, you know, buy a bike and get in better shape?

00:23:26.429 --> 00:23:27.709
Like, would those things help?

00:23:27.929 --> 00:23:31.409
Or is this an issue of there's just too much on the table and no good,

00:23:31.669 --> 00:23:35.549
healthy person is going to be able to do this forever.

00:23:35.969 --> 00:23:42.069
And so the idea that my options are the bridge breaks or it doesn't,

00:23:42.249 --> 00:23:45.089
that's not, those are wrong choices.

00:23:45.349 --> 00:23:52.029
The truth is probably that the table of your life is going to get weaker and

00:23:52.029 --> 00:23:53.489
weaker and weaker over time.

00:23:53.629 --> 00:24:00.229
And by the time you're using words like depression and despair man there were

00:24:00.229 --> 00:24:05.409
signs a long time ago and so when you feel that that the burden is too much.

00:24:06.091 --> 00:24:09.611
Either take something off or find a way to gird yourself up.

00:24:09.711 --> 00:24:14.071
And if you go, I'm trying to gird myself up, I'm fasting, I'm giving,

00:24:14.311 --> 00:24:17.331
I'm praying, I'm memorizing, I'm doing everything.

00:24:17.511 --> 00:24:20.351
And I still feel this unbearable burden.

00:24:20.711 --> 00:24:24.211
Take something off your plate. It's the only option because it's going to cost

00:24:24.211 --> 00:24:27.751
you, it's going to cost you much more in the near future.

00:24:28.151 --> 00:24:34.071
And, you know, I do, I said it before, and I do think that building into those

00:24:34.071 --> 00:24:38.951
most primary relationships, you know, I think there's a reason that Paul tells

00:24:38.951 --> 00:24:41.611
Timothy, hey, find guys whose family is in good order.

00:24:41.831 --> 00:24:47.011
It's not that like you have to have your kids and better not be a mess and embarrass the church.

00:24:47.351 --> 00:24:53.451
No, it's if you have stuff going on at home that is causing a huge burden on

00:24:53.451 --> 00:24:54.611
you, go take care of that.

00:24:55.071 --> 00:24:59.191
Like that needs to be the thing that you care about. That's gonna take a lot of time.

00:24:59.291 --> 00:25:03.271
So there might be a season where you go, guys, I'm not going to potlucks for

00:25:03.271 --> 00:25:05.691
a while. I gotta take care of some stuff at home.

00:25:06.071 --> 00:25:09.691
This is, you know, I'm going to only be in the office a couple days a week for

00:25:09.691 --> 00:25:12.131
a season because I've got to take care of home.

00:25:12.331 --> 00:25:15.891
You're not going to be able to bear all of the burdens, all of the pressures

00:25:15.891 --> 00:25:17.851
that life is going to ask of you.

00:25:18.131 --> 00:25:23.351
You're going to have to find out what is peak me. How do I be as strong as I can be?

00:25:23.571 --> 00:25:26.911
And then what's the appropriate amount of things I can say yes to?

00:25:27.111 --> 00:25:31.131
And if it's more than that, if you go to a congregation and go,

00:25:31.231 --> 00:25:34.051
guys, I've got too much on my plate and I feel like I'm breaking,

00:25:34.071 --> 00:25:35.951
I need to say no to some things.

00:25:36.071 --> 00:25:40.851
And they respond badly to that, then you need to go find another place.

00:25:41.011 --> 00:25:42.331
Like you need to, you need to

00:25:42.331 --> 00:25:47.731
find someplace that, that understands that a person can only do so much.

00:25:47.851 --> 00:25:51.971
So I think if what you're talking about is situational depression,

00:25:52.591 --> 00:25:54.651
just the world is caving in on me.

00:25:54.851 --> 00:25:57.851
I can't, I can't bear this up anymore.

00:25:58.736 --> 00:26:04.056
You know, sometimes you have a great victory and you defeat all of the prophets

00:26:04.056 --> 00:26:06.156
of Baal and you feel great.

00:26:06.316 --> 00:26:10.496
And then the next day you're sitting under a tree crying and feeling like you're all alone.

00:26:10.596 --> 00:26:16.196
And some of that's just welcome to life in ministry. But when it's year three

00:26:16.196 --> 00:26:19.416
under that broom tree, it's time to go, I've taken on too much.

00:26:19.836 --> 00:26:24.656
I have to take some stuff off of this. And then if I can't gird myself up to

00:26:24.656 --> 00:26:28.156
the point where this is joyful, I got to figure out what has to go.

00:26:28.736 --> 00:26:33.276
All right. Those are good insights. And yes, of course, we may be over-medicated

00:26:33.276 --> 00:26:38.196
as a society, but there is nothing in scripture that would rule out a person

00:26:38.196 --> 00:26:41.156
with literal clinical depression from getting medicine.

00:26:41.156 --> 00:26:44.896
And I know the church has shamed that in some instances, and we have,

00:26:45.056 --> 00:26:47.156
I think, wrongly done so. Yeah.

00:26:47.256 --> 00:26:52.636
I think that's part of the body, part of mind, body, and spirit. Am I strong?

00:26:52.656 --> 00:26:57.056
If you've got a problem with your brain, It's not necessarily a problem with

00:26:57.056 --> 00:26:59.376
your mind and get healthy.

00:26:59.736 --> 00:27:03.476
Be healthy. Yeah, agree. Dr. Stewart, what would you like to add to all that?

00:27:03.656 --> 00:27:08.056
I think that was pretty comprehensive. I don't have a whole lot more to add to the issue.

00:27:08.156 --> 00:27:12.856
I just think one of the things that I have dealt with is, and it's been from

00:27:12.856 --> 00:27:16.476
guys who've been in the ministry a while, and it's been a real,

00:27:16.636 --> 00:27:18.496
it's been challenging for their families.

00:27:18.716 --> 00:27:22.756
And it's when they come to the road where they're really their wife is saying,

00:27:22.756 --> 00:27:23.916
she just can't do it anymore.

00:27:24.456 --> 00:27:28.476
And that is, can't do it anymore. She feels like she's faking it.

00:27:28.676 --> 00:27:31.836
And that caused, there's all kinds of challenges that come with that.

00:27:32.016 --> 00:27:36.876
And if that's you and you're listening, I would say to you that you're one flesh.

00:27:37.056 --> 00:27:40.596
The Christian marriage is totally different than the secular world.

00:27:40.816 --> 00:27:43.756
You are one flesh before God. And at that point,

00:27:44.576 --> 00:27:48.376
You need to, I would say, you need to take care of her.

00:27:48.536 --> 00:27:53.956
And as hard as it would sound, go before the Lord and pray with her about stepping

00:27:53.956 --> 00:27:56.296
down from that level of leadership.

00:27:56.296 --> 00:27:59.196
Not stepping away from the Lord or stepping away from his church,

00:27:59.376 --> 00:28:05.156
but stepping away from that level of leadership so that her heart can be restored

00:28:05.156 --> 00:28:06.596
to whatever God has next.

00:28:06.616 --> 00:28:10.856
But if she's there and you're not listening, that will be a bad ending.

00:28:11.136 --> 00:28:14.656
And she's got to be an honest person, too. God put, you know,

00:28:14.836 --> 00:28:20.436
and I've helped, I would say, five or six guys over my ministry deal with that issue.

00:28:20.676 --> 00:28:27.476
And some lost everything because they believed that they had to stay in the

00:28:27.476 --> 00:28:32.376
church in order to honor God, and they would be able to lose their wife and stay in the ministry.

00:28:32.576 --> 00:28:37.956
But that seems sideways thinking to me as to what the Lord was wanting to do.

00:28:39.016 --> 00:28:43.536
Anyway, so that can be a huge issue going on in people's lives. So get some help.

00:28:43.796 --> 00:28:47.496
You know, the things we reiterated, there's people care about you deeply,

00:28:47.976 --> 00:28:48.936
people you don't even know.

00:28:49.516 --> 00:28:52.096
If you're a pastor, honestly, with a lot of Christian people,

00:28:52.176 --> 00:28:55.056
if you say you're a pastor and you need help,

00:28:55.955 --> 00:29:01.155
triggers all kinds of spiritual things inside of the hearts of the normal believer.

00:29:01.435 --> 00:29:03.195
And so just take that to heart.

00:29:03.415 --> 00:29:07.155
Yeah, good word. And we have an upcoming episode where we're going to be talking

00:29:07.155 --> 00:29:10.855
about wives in ministry, ministry wives, supporting them.

00:29:10.995 --> 00:29:15.655
And I think it's the kind of insight we would get from somebody who pastors

00:29:15.655 --> 00:29:22.735
pastors that an issue struggles in the pastor's wife can lead to struggles in everything.

00:29:22.735 --> 00:29:27.455
Because generally speaking, at least in my experience, with my wife and most

00:29:27.455 --> 00:29:31.955
of the pastors I know, our wives are not just a pastoral wife.

00:29:32.095 --> 00:29:35.055
They are playing the game. They are in it. They are, you know,

00:29:35.235 --> 00:29:38.135
maybe we're a point guard, they're a shooting guard, something like that.

00:29:38.235 --> 00:29:42.655
They are so immersed in the life of the church. And if they're not being taken

00:29:42.655 --> 00:29:46.235
care of, if they're not resting enough, and it's something I have to remind

00:29:46.235 --> 00:29:50.555
myself of all the time, if they're not resting enough, then the whole thing

00:29:50.555 --> 00:29:53.175
is, your whole ministry is in danger.

00:29:53.555 --> 00:29:57.875
Well, have me back on that episode. I'll tell a great story that will resonate

00:29:57.875 --> 00:30:00.415
with your audience. Well, fantastic.

00:30:00.435 --> 00:30:03.395
We will do that. One more thing before we go out.

00:30:03.615 --> 00:30:07.875
Pastor Grant, tell us about your role with the GCA just in general,

00:30:07.875 --> 00:30:09.715
how you work with pastors.

00:30:09.895 --> 00:30:15.475
I know it's a relatively new role for you, but tell us what you do and how it's going so far.

00:30:15.935 --> 00:30:19.935
Yeah. Well, an expert at it. I've been doing That's fantastic.

00:30:40.219 --> 00:30:46.519
The people you serve think that you live at church and would be shocked to see

00:30:46.519 --> 00:30:47.559
you elsewhere or whatever.

00:30:47.819 --> 00:30:52.819
And so to have a, I think the role is connecting us, doing some team captain

00:30:52.819 --> 00:30:54.779
stuff, pastor to pastor encouragement.

00:30:54.779 --> 00:30:58.879
And with all things, this is the way ministry is, whether it's visiting other

00:30:58.879 --> 00:31:02.999
churches or hospital visits or whatever. Or, you know, what I'm already finding

00:31:02.999 --> 00:31:07.139
is I walk away from every meeting saying, well, I'm the one that got blessed there.

00:31:08.119 --> 00:31:17.359
There's a great bunch of guys in the GCA that genuinely are answering sincere

00:31:17.359 --> 00:31:20.099
call to an important assignment.

00:31:20.579 --> 00:31:25.559
You know, let's over the next year or so get a system where we don't feel alone,

00:31:25.699 --> 00:31:29.639
where we have built some relationships, where there's genuine friendships there.

00:31:30.159 --> 00:31:33.359
And so it'll be sort of slow going, you know, I'm very part time.

00:31:33.519 --> 00:31:37.379
And so I'm meeting individually with guys right now, trying to figure out who

00:31:37.379 --> 00:31:40.939
has a heart to get together, who has a heart to set aside some time.

00:31:41.099 --> 00:31:46.039
You know, the one of my biggest hopes is that we would be able to do some ministry

00:31:46.039 --> 00:31:47.119
alongside each other, too.

00:31:47.259 --> 00:31:50.679
It's one thing to be friends together. But, you know, a lot of us are the size

00:31:50.679 --> 00:31:56.559
churches where it's hard to do a big men's event or a big event of any kind.

00:31:56.559 --> 00:32:00.079
But if three or four of us got together, we could have a pretty good time and

00:32:00.079 --> 00:32:03.979
not have to be the one running the whole thing and generating every idea.

00:32:04.139 --> 00:32:07.639
And so if we can have the idea that we're together in friendship,

00:32:07.959 --> 00:32:12.639
we're together in ministry, that would be a real blessing. It's something that

00:32:12.639 --> 00:32:15.939
I crave, that I have hoped for.

00:32:16.199 --> 00:32:22.519
And the other thing is we have some small churches, and to have the message of, man.

00:32:23.268 --> 00:32:28.688
The hope is not always that every church triples in size. To be a loving church

00:32:28.688 --> 00:32:30.948
family of any size is so important.

00:32:31.208 --> 00:32:37.508
You are the man, the family that God has called to proclaim Christ as King on

00:32:37.508 --> 00:32:40.328
that corner, on that street, in that neighborhood.

00:32:40.328 --> 00:32:46.168
And that is a profound and noble and sacred work that has nothing to do with

00:32:46.168 --> 00:32:50.908
how many people are in the pews or what exciting story you have to tell.

00:32:51.028 --> 00:32:56.788
And so to help people sense the importance in that role and to know that people

00:32:56.788 --> 00:33:00.568
are praying and serving alongside, that's the, that's the.

00:33:00.648 --> 00:33:04.288
That's great. I don't know your official title. I do sometimes I've forgotten

00:33:04.288 --> 00:33:09.048
it, but I consider you kind of the ambassador of the message that you are not alone.

00:33:09.308 --> 00:33:12.928
And we need a lot of those people in the field. Well, Dr. Starr,

00:33:13.068 --> 00:33:17.288
Dr. Stewart, do you have any parting shots or last words before we close out.

00:33:17.408 --> 00:33:20.208
I think this has been a great topic. It's one that, you know,

00:33:20.268 --> 00:33:23.568
you don't talk about this. You don't go to the pastor's meeting and say,

00:33:23.648 --> 00:33:25.308
hey, let's talk about how I'm depressed.

00:33:25.628 --> 00:33:29.168
So hopefully if you're riding in your car, you're sitting in your church office

00:33:29.168 --> 00:33:30.528
thinking about this, this is

00:33:30.528 --> 00:33:35.788
something the enemy will use for us to get fixated on what's not working.

00:33:35.988 --> 00:33:38.808
And you're not alone. A lot of guys come to this. It's like you're saying,

00:33:38.988 --> 00:33:43.128
there are guys that get to the point 20%, It's not 20%. Don't let that happen.

00:33:43.248 --> 00:33:47.788
I'll just say, be proactive. What Grant was talking about. What's your bridge feel like?

00:33:48.528 --> 00:33:52.568
And you don't have to take everything. You don't have to take everything that

00:33:52.568 --> 00:33:56.268
everybody else wants to hand you. You have a high calling. Filter.

00:33:57.048 --> 00:34:00.288
Filter what gets onto your bridge and say, you know, brother,

00:34:00.448 --> 00:34:04.188
sister, I love you, but that's not me. I can't bear that.

00:34:04.588 --> 00:34:08.668
This is my—I'm running in this lane. God will provide.

00:34:09.068 --> 00:34:13.128
I was listening to some guys talk about they needed things.

00:34:13.308 --> 00:34:16.068
They needed people to help and that kind of stuff. And I asked them,

00:34:16.188 --> 00:34:19.688
have you prayed for this? because they kept asking me, you know,

00:34:19.768 --> 00:34:20.548
that, hey, I need people.

00:34:20.808 --> 00:34:24.048
Have you prayed about it? Because this is going to most benefit you.

00:34:24.168 --> 00:34:27.708
Have you prayed about it? No, I haven't yet. Well, you pray about it, brother.

00:34:27.948 --> 00:34:31.488
And, you know, the pastor has other things that can do, but this is important.

00:34:31.648 --> 00:34:34.248
But it's only as important as you make it before God.

00:34:34.428 --> 00:34:38.568
And you pray about it and then see what God does. And then I'll be,

00:34:38.708 --> 00:34:40.468
I'm praying for you to pray.

00:34:40.768 --> 00:34:46.508
And so I just say, filter what gets onto your must do or have to do list.

00:34:47.412 --> 00:34:50.812
Grant has some wisdom there, your calendar, all the things that can protect

00:34:50.812 --> 00:34:54.572
you. Do the work God's called you to do, but don't do other people's work.

00:34:55.252 --> 00:35:00.552
Yeah, yes. Amen to that. Well, I will close this out with a quote from my guy,

00:35:00.692 --> 00:35:03.572
Charles Spurgeon, probably my ministry hero.

00:35:03.852 --> 00:35:08.352
He was one of the first megachurch pastors, brilliant mind, and he struggled

00:35:08.352 --> 00:35:11.512
greatly with depression and he wrote about it frequently.

00:35:12.012 --> 00:35:16.232
And this was in the 1800s. And it's kind of shocking that depression in the

00:35:16.232 --> 00:35:20.992
church still has the stigma that it does now, considering some of these early

00:35:20.992 --> 00:35:24.292
guys, Richard Baxter and Charles Spurgeon, who talked about it a little bit.

00:35:24.412 --> 00:35:28.672
Of course, he didn't differentiate between clinical depression and situational

00:35:28.672 --> 00:35:34.332
depression, but he did say, our depressions may tend to our fruitfulness.

00:35:34.612 --> 00:35:37.932
A heart bowed down with despair is a dreadful thing.

00:35:38.092 --> 00:35:43.392
Proverbs 18, 14, a broken spirit who may bear it. But if you have never had

00:35:43.392 --> 00:35:47.512
such an experience, you will not be worth a pin as a preacher.

00:35:47.732 --> 00:35:52.792
You can't help others who are depressed unless you have been down in the depths yourself.

00:35:53.412 --> 00:35:58.732
You cannot lift others out of despondency and depression unless you yourself

00:35:58.732 --> 00:36:02.112
sometimes need to be lifted out of such experiences.

00:36:02.732 --> 00:36:07.452
You must be compassed with this infirmity too in times in order to have compassion

00:36:07.452 --> 00:36:09.592
on those in similar cases.

00:36:09.592 --> 00:36:15.532
Our whole nature, says Spurgeon, as feeble men may be turned to the noblest

00:36:15.532 --> 00:36:19.352
use if it calls forth our compassion towards others.

00:36:19.552 --> 00:36:25.752
When we are less than nothing, the all-sufficiency of God will be all the more manifested.

00:36:26.563 --> 00:36:28.723
I think that's a good truth to end on.

00:36:28.903 --> 00:36:32.723
So thank you, Dr. Stewart. Thank you, Pastor Grant, for your time.

00:36:32.943 --> 00:36:35.443
May the Lord bless you and your ministry.

00:36:35.683 --> 00:36:38.963
Well, so if you're a pastor or church leader, I think you're going to have gotten

00:36:38.963 --> 00:36:40.263
a lot out of that interview.

00:36:40.763 --> 00:36:45.103
Grant is a stand-up, straight-shooting kind of guy, my favorite kind of guy.

00:36:45.103 --> 00:36:51.603
And I love talking with him about things in the ministry and pitfalls to avoid.

00:36:51.763 --> 00:36:57.943
Well, credibility and integrity are important. I mean, that's pretty obvious, right?

00:36:58.143 --> 00:37:01.783
I don't think any real Christian would disagree with that statement.

00:37:02.123 --> 00:37:06.703
Jesus spoke the truth. He identified himself as a truth speaker,

00:37:07.043 --> 00:37:08.963
a truth teller in John chapter 8.

00:37:09.223 --> 00:37:13.563
In fact, he noted that some of the Jews wanted to kill him because he told them

00:37:13.563 --> 00:37:17.143
the truth. The truth isn't always popular.

00:37:17.383 --> 00:37:23.463
And in John chapter 8, Jesus also noted that Satan was the one who peddled lies.

00:37:23.463 --> 00:37:27.263
In fact, Jesus said to the Jews, you are of your father, the devil,

00:37:27.383 --> 00:37:29.663
and you want to carry out your father's desires.

00:37:29.943 --> 00:37:31.943
He was a murderer from the beginning,

00:37:31.943 --> 00:37:35.583
and he does not stand in the truth because there's no truth in him.

00:37:35.783 --> 00:37:42.663
When he tells a lie, he speaks from his own nature because he is a liar and the father of lies.

00:37:42.843 --> 00:37:47.403
When we lie, we identify and support the father of lies, as it were,

00:37:47.423 --> 00:37:53.923
and we repudiate and reject, at least temporarily, Jesus, the way, the truth, and the life.

00:37:54.063 --> 00:37:55.623
Over the past five years, I've

00:37:55.623 --> 00:38:00.243
seen a genuine flood of Christians publicly sharing false information,

00:38:00.243 --> 00:38:06.483
and very few things other than hypocrisy does more to erode and undermine our

00:38:06.483 --> 00:38:10.523
claims about Jesus than sharing lies about other things.

00:38:10.743 --> 00:38:14.523
I've seen Christians share just tons of unverified lies.

00:38:15.257 --> 00:38:19.977
Urban legends, myths, rumors, that sort of thing as true.

00:38:20.117 --> 00:38:23.557
I'm seeing it more and more, more than ever in my lifetime.

00:38:23.777 --> 00:38:25.697
And honestly, it kind of worries me greatly.

00:38:26.197 --> 00:38:32.737
Think about it. What skeptic would trust a habitual liar to point them to the way of eternal life?

00:38:32.897 --> 00:38:36.877
At some point, I'm hoping to have a deep discussion with our co-host,

00:38:37.077 --> 00:38:42.597
Pastor Christopher Cole, on Christian urban legends and the Christian spread

00:38:42.597 --> 00:38:45.497
of myth as fact in an upcoming episode.

00:38:45.737 --> 00:38:50.597
I expect such things from worldly sources. For instance, Joe Rogan's podcast

00:38:50.597 --> 00:38:57.917
a couple years ago had a New York Times writer and college journalism professor named Michelle Dowd on.

00:38:58.288 --> 00:39:02.428
And she had a lot of claims about the Bible. For instance, she claimed that

00:39:02.428 --> 00:39:07.088
the first gospel written about Jesus wasn't written until about a hundred years

00:39:07.088 --> 00:39:09.928
after his death. And look, that's just not true.

00:39:10.228 --> 00:39:13.468
Textual evidence argues strongly against that.

00:39:13.608 --> 00:39:17.788
But those kind of things are said all the time by skeptics and conspiracy theorists

00:39:17.788 --> 00:39:20.628
and people who claim to be experts but aren't.

00:39:20.788 --> 00:39:26.108
And Dowd also said that the expression pearls before swine was somehow related

00:39:26.108 --> 00:39:29.088
to the parable of the prodigal son. It's not.

00:39:29.468 --> 00:39:34.548
Tamar and Bathsheba are ignored or treated poorly in modern Christianity,

00:39:34.548 --> 00:39:36.108
and I don't think they are.

00:39:36.328 --> 00:39:42.268
And most Christians solely blame Eve for the fall of mankind in the Garden of Eden.

00:39:42.428 --> 00:39:47.208
And you know what? That's not biblical, and I haven't really heard Christians do that.

00:39:47.328 --> 00:39:51.408
Yes, she got deceived, but honestly, in the Bible and in most people's thinking,

00:39:51.628 --> 00:39:53.528
the blame falls on her guy, Adam.

00:39:53.528 --> 00:39:59.508
Romans 5.12, Paul says, Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one

00:39:59.508 --> 00:40:05.488
man and death through sin, in this way death spread to all people because all sinned.

00:40:05.688 --> 00:40:13.708
Or 1 Corinthians 15.22, For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

00:40:13.908 --> 00:40:19.868
And I see secular academics and pundits and journalists and podcasters and broadcasters

00:40:19.868 --> 00:40:24.668
or whatever, they make factual mistakes and false claims about the Bible all the time.

00:40:24.868 --> 00:40:30.108
And again, I suppose that's not very surprising, but preachers and Christian

00:40:30.108 --> 00:40:34.208
leaders and Christian teachers should not do the same thing.

00:40:34.488 --> 00:40:39.548
There's a reliance out there on unverified illustrations and stories and things

00:40:39.548 --> 00:40:42.948
like that to go along with the teaching of the word.

00:40:43.148 --> 00:40:48.788
And it leads to this terrible repetition of preacher myths, which kind of itself

00:40:48.788 --> 00:40:53.208
carries some really significant long-term risks to our credibility.

00:40:53.894 --> 00:40:59.874
When listeners discover that an illustration or story used to substantiate or

00:40:59.874 --> 00:41:03.514
illuminate a core theological truth is a fabrication,

00:41:03.854 --> 00:41:09.814
the credibility of the theology is compromised big time as well as the overall

00:41:09.814 --> 00:41:11.474
believability of the preacher.

00:41:11.674 --> 00:41:15.854
Beyond that, I guess the borrowing of illustrations without independent verification,

00:41:15.854 --> 00:41:21.034
without doing your homework, it kind of borders on plagiarism as speakers.

00:41:21.034 --> 00:41:27.574
They share these myths as truth, and it spreads around in a viral sort of way,

00:41:27.654 --> 00:41:31.994
and it's just bad for our credibility.

00:41:32.634 --> 00:41:37.494
Well, TLDR, lying preachers are bad, and that's what we're going to talk about a little bit today.

00:41:37.654 --> 00:41:42.534
We're going to talk about preacher myths, and I've got five of them for you.

00:41:42.674 --> 00:41:47.474
We're going to begin, number one, with made-up verses or near verses.

00:41:47.474 --> 00:41:51.974
And there look there's a lot of pseudo bible verses out there like cleanliness

00:41:51.974 --> 00:41:54.894
is next to godliness that is not

00:41:55.281 --> 00:42:00.141
a Bible verse, but a Bible guy, I guess, a preacher came up with it,

00:42:00.381 --> 00:42:06.661
John Wesley, who said that let it be observed, the slovenliness is no part of religion.

00:42:07.041 --> 00:42:11.481
Neither this nor any text of scripture condemns neatness of apparel.

00:42:11.741 --> 00:42:13.761
Certainly this is a duty, not a sin.

00:42:14.281 --> 00:42:18.741
Cleanliness is indeed next to godliness. And even back in the second century,

00:42:19.021 --> 00:42:20.921
Rabbi Pinchas Benyar, not a

00:42:20.921 --> 00:42:25.841
Christian, but a teacher of the Jews said that zeal leads to cleanliness.

00:42:26.021 --> 00:42:29.061
Cleanliness leads to purity. Purity leads to restraint.

00:42:29.481 --> 00:42:35.161
Restraint leads to holiness. Holiness leads to humility. Humility leads to fear of sin.

00:42:35.581 --> 00:42:39.961
Fear of sin leads to piety. Piety leads to divine inspiration.

00:42:39.961 --> 00:42:45.981
And he was one of the earliest guys who really connected cleanliness with godliness somehow.

00:42:46.301 --> 00:42:50.301
And it It sounds like he also was an early discipler of Yoda.

00:42:50.601 --> 00:42:57.421
The Bible does not say money is the root of all evil, but the love of money is the root of all evil.

00:42:57.581 --> 00:43:02.901
It does not say spare the rod, spoil the child, but it does say something very, very similar.

00:43:03.221 --> 00:43:08.021
Whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children

00:43:08.021 --> 00:43:10.161
is careful to discipline them.

00:43:10.501 --> 00:43:15.281
Now, I guess spare the rod, spoil the child is kind of a boiled down version

00:43:15.281 --> 00:43:17.141
of that. It's in the neighborhood, at least.

00:43:17.341 --> 00:43:21.581
Most Christians and preachers actually know those verses are in the Bible,

00:43:21.581 --> 00:43:26.841
or that it really is the love of money, not money is the root of all evil.

00:43:26.981 --> 00:43:30.581
But that might not be true for preacher myth number two.

00:43:30.981 --> 00:43:34.581
Will the lion indeed lie down with the lamb?

00:43:34.781 --> 00:43:38.481
Well, I guess it's possible. It sounds like it's very plausible,

00:43:38.721 --> 00:43:42.401
but the Bible doesn't actually say that.

00:43:42.401 --> 00:43:46.481
Instead, specifically, the Bible actually says in Isaiah 11,

00:43:46.701 --> 00:43:53.161
6, the wolf will dwell with the lamb and the leopard will lie down with the goat.

00:43:53.769 --> 00:44:01.389
And in Isaiah 65, 25, similar, the wolf and the lamb will feed together and

00:44:01.389 --> 00:44:06.989
the lion will eat straw like cattle, but the serpent's food will be dust.

00:44:07.149 --> 00:44:10.629
And there's also passages about babies playing near snake holes.

00:44:10.829 --> 00:44:15.369
So lots of things like that are going to happen, but the Bible never specifically

00:44:15.369 --> 00:44:18.509
says the lion will lie down with the lamb.

00:44:18.749 --> 00:44:23.629
Now, you're not being led too far astray with that preacher myth.

00:44:23.769 --> 00:44:29.709
But we should still strive for accuracy, which brings me to number three.

00:44:29.909 --> 00:44:34.569
And this one might disappoint some of our Benny Hester and Phillips Craig and

00:44:34.569 --> 00:44:37.469
Dean old school Christian music fans.

00:44:38.096 --> 00:44:44.636
But the fact is that first century Jewish men sometimes did run.

00:44:45.036 --> 00:44:51.156
Now, lots of preachers and several popular Christian songs share that widely

00:44:51.156 --> 00:44:56.696
repeated claim that in ancient Jewish and even broader Middle Eastern culture,

00:44:56.836 --> 00:44:59.196
it was considered deeply shameful,

00:44:59.476 --> 00:45:05.176
humiliating, and entirely unprecedented for an older noble patriarch to run.

00:45:05.176 --> 00:45:09.516
And part of that, I guess, the thought was that running requires a man to lift

00:45:09.516 --> 00:45:13.936
his flowing robes, therefore exposing his ankles, his bare legs.

00:45:14.056 --> 00:45:17.596
And it was seen, the story goes, as a profound loss of dignity.

00:45:17.896 --> 00:45:20.796
And therefore, in the parable of the prodigal son,

00:45:21.156 --> 00:45:26.196
the father running to his returning son represents this earth-shattering break

00:45:26.196 --> 00:45:29.496
from cultural norms symbolizing God

00:45:29.496 --> 00:45:35.656
casting aside all dignity to welcome a repentant sinner. but is it true?

00:45:36.196 --> 00:45:40.256
Here's the thing. It's not exactly true.

00:45:40.576 --> 00:45:44.676
Honestly, we have virtually no evidence for those claims.

00:45:44.676 --> 00:45:51.916
It was probably unusual and socially undignified for an older patriarch in the

00:45:51.916 --> 00:45:56.456
Middle East in the first century during Jesus's day to run in public,

00:45:56.456 --> 00:46:00.096
but it certainly wasn't a law or anything like that.

00:46:00.216 --> 00:46:04.156
And in the Bible, you're going to find Abraham ran, and so did John and Peter.

00:46:04.436 --> 00:46:06.236
Of course, John outran him.

00:46:06.616 --> 00:46:12.636
Laban ran. Moses ran. Esau ran. And the origin of this, probably in modern times,

00:46:12.816 --> 00:46:18.636
goes back to the New Testament scholar Kenneth Bailey in his 1976 book, Poet and Peasant.

00:46:19.056 --> 00:46:22.976
Now, Bailey was a good scholar, and he cited Aristotle,

00:46:22.976 --> 00:46:30.256
and he cited the apocryphal book of Sirach and he cited modern Middle Eastern

00:46:30.256 --> 00:46:40.416
society and argued that oriental noblemen with flowing robes never ran anywhere to do so is humiliating

00:46:40.833 --> 00:46:46.153
But the problem is, he didn't really have historical backup for that.

00:46:46.473 --> 00:46:50.293
Historical context demonstrates that while a slow,

00:46:50.633 --> 00:46:56.673
deliberate kind of walking pace was generally a sign of dignity among people

00:46:56.673 --> 00:47:02.013
in the first century, especially men, it was not as taboo as some preachers

00:47:02.013 --> 00:47:05.153
seem to have made it. Men ran in war.

00:47:05.433 --> 00:47:10.593
They ran to convey urgent news. They, of course, ran in athletic competition,

00:47:10.593 --> 00:47:15.853
and they ran at times of emotional distress, and probably they ran to go to

00:47:15.853 --> 00:47:18.313
the bathroom and get water and things like that.

00:47:18.433 --> 00:47:24.073
To state categorically that first century men never ran kind of artificially

00:47:24.073 --> 00:47:28.733
inflates the cultural shock of that part of the parable.

00:47:28.873 --> 00:47:35.973
And here's the important thing. It's totally unnecessary, and it adds nothing

00:47:35.973 --> 00:47:40.173
to the story of the parable of the prodigal son in Luke 15.

00:47:40.533 --> 00:47:48.173
The running is not emphasized in the text because the running is not really the big deal.

00:47:48.333 --> 00:47:54.533
It's a detail. It might be somewhat significant, but the bigger mind-blowing

00:47:54.533 --> 00:47:57.873
detail is the father met his son.

00:47:57.873 --> 00:48:03.533
And instantly dismissed his silly plan to get a job, the son get a job with

00:48:03.533 --> 00:48:06.673
the dad, he fell on his neck and kissed him.

00:48:07.165 --> 00:48:14.225
Surely that massive hug and kiss is the bigger and more potent symbol of love,

00:48:14.405 --> 00:48:16.565
grace, mercy, forgiveness, and welcome.

00:48:16.765 --> 00:48:21.965
But wait, there's more. Because the father called for his best robe,

00:48:22.205 --> 00:48:29.245
his rings, sandals, a fattened cap to be slaughtered, and a feast, a party.

00:48:29.665 --> 00:48:32.965
These are the big things. These are the massive things.

00:48:33.165 --> 00:48:38.165
Great. The dad ran. But all of those other things really just speak louder.

00:48:38.465 --> 00:48:43.465
The father rejoices incredibly. I mean, even to the point where his older son

00:48:43.465 --> 00:48:47.905
is like, why all this commotion and all this fuss? This isn't fair.

00:48:48.185 --> 00:48:51.225
Why we focus on the running part is strange to me.

00:48:51.385 --> 00:48:56.325
The song really should be more along the lines of when God had a party and all

00:48:56.325 --> 00:48:58.145
of heaven celebrated, which is,

00:48:58.485 --> 00:49:02.885
again, more impactful than running and also very biblically accurate because

00:49:02.885 --> 00:49:11.225
Luke 15 portrays multiple celebrations in heaven and joy by the Father, by God himself,

00:49:11.565 --> 00:49:16.185
the creator of everything, when the lost are found and sinners repent.

00:49:16.805 --> 00:49:24.305
All right, number four, horses and donkeys. Everybody knows Mary rode a donkey to Bethlehem, right?

00:49:24.665 --> 00:49:29.405
And not everybody knows, but a lot of people know that Paul fell off of his

00:49:29.405 --> 00:49:35.005
horse on the Damascus road in Acts 9 when Jesus appeared to him in a vision, right?

00:49:35.645 --> 00:49:37.545
Well, maybe.

00:49:38.592 --> 00:49:39.872
Maybe not.

00:49:40.172 --> 00:49:44.772
We don't know really because the Bible never mentions a donkey in the Jesus

00:49:44.772 --> 00:49:49.072
Nativity stories and it doesn't mention a horse on the road to Damascus.

00:49:49.392 --> 00:49:54.012
In fact, in reading the Acts account, number one, there's not a horse mentioned

00:49:54.012 --> 00:49:55.312
in the whole book of Acts.

00:49:55.472 --> 00:50:02.052
But number two, it seems very likely reading Acts 9 that Paul was not riding a horse.

00:50:02.252 --> 00:50:05.912
I mean, probably it would have been mentioned. It does say he fell down,

00:50:05.952 --> 00:50:09.652
but I think Luke would have told us if he'd fallen off of a horse.

00:50:09.812 --> 00:50:16.392
That myth is so pervasive that it has infected most modern AI platforms.

00:50:16.652 --> 00:50:22.872
And when I today asked both Gemini's Nano Banana 2 and ChatGPT to produce a

00:50:22.872 --> 00:50:28.212
picture of Paul meeting Jesus on the Damascus Road, as recorded in Acts 9,

00:50:28.612 --> 00:50:35.432
Both of them made illustrations that prominently featured Paul falling off of a horse.

00:50:35.752 --> 00:50:39.452
Similarly, the same thing happened with Mary and the donkey.

00:50:39.772 --> 00:50:45.652
I said, and I quote, please make a similar illustration of Mary and Joseph traveling

00:50:45.652 --> 00:50:50.172
to Bethlehem using only what is recorded in Matthew and Luke.

00:50:50.392 --> 00:50:54.432
The only person who rides a donkey in the New Testament is Jesus.

00:50:54.812 --> 00:51:01.152
Did Mary ride a donkey on On the way to Bethlehem, maybe, but the Bible just doesn't record it.

00:51:01.292 --> 00:51:07.932
And of course, ChatGBT and Jim and I both produced pictures for me of Joseph

00:51:07.932 --> 00:51:10.932
leading a donkey with Mary on top of it.

00:51:11.112 --> 00:51:17.132
But I will say this, kudos to Jim and I, however, who after producing that picture said,

00:51:17.617 --> 00:51:23.177
The detail of Mary riding a donkey, though perhaps the most iconic image of

00:51:23.177 --> 00:51:29.657
this journey, is actually a traditional addition and is not found in either Matthew or Luke.

00:51:29.897 --> 00:51:32.257
However, there's a big however here.

00:51:32.697 --> 00:51:38.557
However, since a literal illustration based only on the few verses in the Gospels

00:51:38.557 --> 00:51:42.157
might appear too abstract or sparse,

00:51:42.377 --> 00:51:49.357
I included this traditional element to make the scene immediately recognizable.

00:51:50.277 --> 00:51:57.357
And you know what? Preachers for hundreds of years have done the exact same thing.

00:51:57.817 --> 00:52:03.657
They, we, have added to the story to, at least in our minds,

00:52:03.897 --> 00:52:06.137
make it better or to fill in the gaps.

00:52:06.397 --> 00:52:08.757
And friends, that's dangerous.

00:52:09.177 --> 00:52:14.157
The core is good enough. It's awesome enough. It's powerful enough.

00:52:14.397 --> 00:52:16.557
In fact, it's more than good enough.

00:52:16.957 --> 00:52:24.177
You don't have to add salt to a perfectly seasoned steak. It just makes it worse.

00:52:24.377 --> 00:52:30.757
And we don't have to add our own embellishments in drama to the perfect story

00:52:30.757 --> 00:52:33.417
because it just makes it worse.

00:52:33.577 --> 00:52:35.817
You can't add to perfection.

00:52:36.630 --> 00:52:40.610
Last one for today, and some people might be a little bummed out about this one.

00:52:40.910 --> 00:52:45.710
Number five, the folded napkin that supposedly sent a message.

00:52:45.890 --> 00:52:47.890
You remember John chapter 20.

00:52:48.170 --> 00:52:53.010
It gives us this amazing peek into the empty tomb of Jesus.

00:52:53.330 --> 00:52:57.630
And we'll read verse three, John 20, verse three, Peter and the other disciple

00:52:57.630 --> 00:52:59.410
went out heading for the tomb.

00:52:59.650 --> 00:53:05.810
The two were running together, but the other disciple outran Peter and got to the tomb first.

00:53:06.350 --> 00:53:10.990
Stooping down, he saw the linen cloths lying there, but he did not go in.

00:53:11.170 --> 00:53:14.430
Then following him, Simon Peter also came.

00:53:14.670 --> 00:53:18.750
He entered the tomb and saw the linen cloths lying there.

00:53:18.910 --> 00:53:22.950
The wrapping that had been on his head was not lying with the linen cloths,

00:53:23.010 --> 00:53:26.670
but was folded up in a separate place by itself.

00:53:26.890 --> 00:53:33.370
The other disciple who had reached the tomb first, then also went in, saw and believed.

00:53:33.370 --> 00:53:38.330
Now, you might have heard that this folded cloth, sometimes called a napkin

00:53:38.330 --> 00:53:40.150
because of the King James translation,

00:53:40.150 --> 00:53:46.250
was a code that Jesus left indicating that he was coming back.

00:53:46.370 --> 00:53:51.890
In a lot of modern sermons and social media posts regarding the resurrection of Jesus,

00:53:52.150 --> 00:53:59.250
a lot of attention to detail is paid to this face cloth or napkin that was left

00:53:59.250 --> 00:54:02.750
in the empty tomb and was neatly folded by itself.

00:54:02.750 --> 00:54:07.150
The prevailing myth claims that in the first century Hebrew tradition,

00:54:07.470 --> 00:54:14.730
A folded napkin at a dinner table carried a highly specific coded symbolic kind of meeting.

00:54:15.030 --> 00:54:21.510
According to this, which is a myth, if a master wadded up his napkin and tossed

00:54:21.510 --> 00:54:27.410
it onto the table, it meant he was finished eating, signaling his servant to clear the plates.

00:54:27.410 --> 00:54:34.150
But if he folded it neatly and placed it beside his plate, the servant would

00:54:34.150 --> 00:54:38.350
not dare touch the table because the folded napkin meant...

00:54:38.890 --> 00:54:44.670
I am not finished. I'm coming back. Well, this preacher myth claims that Jesus,

00:54:44.870 --> 00:54:46.870
in leaving a folded napkin, was

00:54:46.870 --> 00:54:51.810
communicating a deliberate message to his disciples that he was returning.

00:54:52.090 --> 00:54:57.350
Well, problem is, as near as I can tell, that concept is kind of a modern internet

00:54:57.350 --> 00:55:02.870
fabrication that began circulating heavily in emails and online forums,

00:55:03.090 --> 00:55:04.810
I don't know, 20, 25 years ago.

00:55:04.810 --> 00:55:08.710
From my searching and the research of others,

00:55:08.950 --> 00:55:15.170
there's pretty much no evidence in rabbinic literature or historical records

00:55:15.170 --> 00:55:20.650
or archaeological findings or any of those kind of things of those kind of Jewish

00:55:20.650 --> 00:55:23.250
dining customs in the first century.

00:55:23.450 --> 00:55:27.950
In fact, in the first century, the Greeks and the Jews of that era predominantly

00:55:27.950 --> 00:55:32.950
ate with their hands. They used bread to scoop food, and they didn't really

00:55:32.950 --> 00:55:36.270
utilize modern table napkins.

00:55:36.510 --> 00:55:40.330
Instead, they had ritual hand-washing before and after the meal.

00:55:40.530 --> 00:55:47.410
The Greek word translated as napkin, like the King James Version and others, is sudarian.

00:55:47.690 --> 00:55:51.070
And it really is not a napkin like we think of.

00:55:51.130 --> 00:55:55.750
It's more of a sweat cloth or a face cloth or a face covering that was used

00:55:55.750 --> 00:56:00.390
specifically for the dead and it was not a piece of tableware.

00:56:00.630 --> 00:56:06.370
It's the same word used for the cloth that covered Lazarus' face in John 11.44

00:56:06.370 --> 00:56:11.430
and the handkerchiefs that were touched by Paul in Acts 19.12.

00:56:12.117 --> 00:56:14.957
The Jews didn't really use napkins like we do,

00:56:15.137 --> 00:56:21.297
and projecting Western European or modern American dining etiquette onto ancient

00:56:21.297 --> 00:56:27.637
Near Eastern burial customs is a bad idea, and it's just wrong.

00:56:27.817 --> 00:56:33.197
Not only that, but it's kind of a weird message, too, regardless.

00:56:33.437 --> 00:56:37.517
Look, even if it were true, because the disciples essentially got it,

00:56:37.637 --> 00:56:43.597
again, were it true, after Jesus had returned. because they didn't go into the

00:56:43.597 --> 00:56:47.877
tomb during the Friday night and Saturday while he was in the tomb.

00:56:48.037 --> 00:56:52.777
The coded message, I'm returning to the table, would logically sort of imply

00:56:52.777 --> 00:56:58.197
that Jesus intended to return to the tomb, which that kind of subverts the entire

00:56:58.197 --> 00:57:01.957
Christian doctrine of a permanent victorious resurrection.

00:57:02.237 --> 00:57:06.037
And beyond that, it's just silly. Now, that said, the sidarium,

00:57:06.297 --> 00:57:12.477
the face cloth and the other burial cloths is indeed important in a lot of early

00:57:12.477 --> 00:57:13.777
church fathers' writings.

00:57:14.097 --> 00:57:17.497
Augustine talked about it, and he has a very interesting passage.

00:57:17.717 --> 00:57:22.137
He's like, I'm sure there's meaning to this, but I don't have time to talk about it right now.

00:57:22.377 --> 00:57:28.037
John Chrysostom saw it as a proof of Jesus' resurrection, but not like a coded message.

00:57:28.377 --> 00:57:32.457
Just the fact that it was set there neatly meant that he had done it.

00:57:32.757 --> 00:57:39.477
And beyond that, a couple of massive legends have arisen around that face cloth

00:57:39.477 --> 00:57:44.117
and the other grave cloths in the tomb that persists to this day.

00:57:44.117 --> 00:57:46.137
Of course, you've heard of the Shroud of Turin.

00:57:46.277 --> 00:57:49.997
You may not have heard of the Mandillion or the image of Edessa,

00:57:50.197 --> 00:57:55.477
which could be a face cloth that touched the face of Jesus, but also could be

00:57:55.477 --> 00:57:57.977
this Sudarium we're talking about.

00:57:58.337 --> 00:58:03.437
Now, those aren't exactly preacher myths, but I would say maybe the Mandillion

00:58:03.437 --> 00:58:08.677
and the Shroud of Turin probably shouldn't form the basis of any sort of apologetic

00:58:08.677 --> 00:58:10.017
about the risen Jesus...

00:58:10.452 --> 00:58:14.172
Interesting as those things are, but maybe more on that one day.

00:58:14.492 --> 00:58:19.152
Beyond these five, I have several more preacher myths, and I may turn that into

00:58:19.152 --> 00:58:23.252
a standalone episode just like I did with the quotes on preaching last week.

00:58:23.372 --> 00:58:26.952
But let me restate something important one more time in closing.

00:58:28.212 --> 00:58:33.612
Lying, embellishing, exaggeration. Look, none of that adds to the gospel power.

00:58:33.812 --> 00:58:37.632
We don't have to amp it up. We don't have to pretty it up. We don't have to

00:58:37.632 --> 00:58:41.292
add things to it. we don't have to drama it up.

00:58:41.412 --> 00:58:47.152
It doesn't add to it. At best, it adds a bit of fluff that might entertain the

00:58:47.152 --> 00:58:49.132
immature and the lost, but more likely,

00:58:49.352 --> 00:58:53.352
those kind of things will eventually catch up to us and cause not only a drop

00:58:53.352 --> 00:58:57.932
in our own personal credibility, but a drop in the credibility of the message

00:58:57.932 --> 00:58:59.932
we're talking about, the gospel of Jesus.

00:59:00.112 --> 00:59:04.512
And the last thing any one of us should want to do is tarnish the beauty of

00:59:04.512 --> 00:59:08.752
the gospel by adding to it or trying to over-season in it.

00:59:08.852 --> 00:59:11.512
You don't improve perfection.

00:59:11.812 --> 00:59:15.932
Well, that is all for episode number 14. Please do allow me to point you to

00:59:15.932 --> 00:59:18.152
our website, Every Church Flourishing.

00:59:18.372 --> 00:59:23.572
And as always, I want to end with a request to share the show with your friends

00:59:23.572 --> 00:59:28.272
and neighbors and enemies and teammates and bosses and coworkers and anybody

00:59:28.272 --> 00:59:33.492
you see on the street or in a cave you're exploring or while you're out swimming in the ocean.

00:59:33.672 --> 00:59:36.412
Thanks for listening. Good day to you and God speak.